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• 高压教育、游戏开发、极致优化：Telegram创始人帕维尔·杜罗夫2025年10月播客实录 | 中英文完整版精译 Part3

  2025-10-22

  LZN

  thinking

  thinking

  书童按：本篇是帕维尔·杜罗夫（Pavel Durov）于2025年10月接受Lex Fridman的播客采访实录，Pavel是端到端加密通信软件Telegram的创始人兼CEO。其采访中涉及高压教育、竞争观念、游戏开发、极致性能优化、精英团队、UI设计、用户体验、加密与开源等话题，精彩绝伦，令人击节称赞。初稿采用AI机器翻译，经自动化中英混排，书童仅做简单校对及批注。原稿中英文混排近7万字，书童将分为Part1-4发出，本篇是第三部分，以飨诸君。

  

  高压教育

  Intense education

  (01:33:24) 好的，我们喝了点茶，回来了。让我们回到很多年前，回到最开始。你提到你上过一所教育强度非常大的学校，所以我认为看看那种教育中一些强大的方面会非常有趣，从语言到数学。你能具体描述一下其中一些严格的方面以及你从中收获了什么吗？

  Lex Fridman (01:33:24) All right, we had some tea, we’re back. Let’s go back a bunch of years to the beginning. You mentioned you went to school with super intensive education so I thought it’d be really interesting to look at some of the powerful aspects of that education from the languages to the math. Can you actually describe some of the rigorous aspects of it and what you gained from it?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:33:48) 在11岁的时候，我得到了一个机会，进入了我当时居住的圣彼得堡的一所实验学校，你必须通过严格的考试才能被录取。这所学校的理念是，如果你试图将尽可能多的信息塞进一个青少年的大脑中，重点放在数学和外语上，那么学生的大脑会发生一些变化，使得学生能够理解大多数其他学科。但结果我们有一个班级，它没有任何单一的重点，而是广泛涉及许多学科。你至少要学习四门外语，包括拉丁语、英语、法语、德语，此外，你还可以学习古希腊语。你会有像生物化学或精神分析、进化心理学这样的课程。这个班级与同一所学校（属于圣彼得堡国立大学，称为学术体育馆）的其他班级的不同之处在于，不像其他班级专注于某个单一学科，如物理、数学或历史，这个班级试图从所有这些专业班级中汲取精华，并将其融入一个课程体系中。由于这是一个实验班，不可能成为一个全优生，在所有科目上都出类拔萃，甚至尝试这样做都被认为是疯狂的。

  Pavel Durov (01:33:48) At the age of 11, I got the opportunity to enter an experimental school in St. Petersburg where I lived and you had to pass a rigorous test to get accepted. The idea behind the school was that, if you try to squeeze as much information as possible into a brain of a teenager making a focus on maths and foreign languages, then there will be some changes in the brain of the student that will allow the student to understand most other disciplines. But we had a class, as a result, that didn’t have any single focus, it was very widespread across a lot of disciplines. You would have four foreign languages at least including Latin, English, French, German, in addition, you can get ancient Greek. You would have classes like biochemistry or psychoanalysis, evolutionary psychology. The difference of this class as opposed to other classes in the same school which was part of the St. Petersburg State University called academic gymnasium was that, unlike other classes which were specialized in some single subject like physics or maths or history, this one tried to get the best from all of these specialized classes and bring into one curriculum. Since it was an experimental class, it wasn’t possible to become a straight A student, to be excellent in all the subject, it’s always considered crazy to even try.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:35:48) 所以，它假设没有人能够应对，你只是在挑战人类思维的极限。四门语言并行，数学，进化心理学，就是用信息淹没大脑，看看会发生什么。

  Lex Fridman (01:35:48) So, it’s assumed nobody’s able to handle it, you’re just pushing the limits of the human mind. Four languages in parallel, math, evolutionary psychology, just overwhelming the mind and see what happens.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:35:59) 是的，看看会发生什么。这是一项实验，而且是在90年代中期，记得吗，那时候俄罗斯，尤其是它的教育系统，不像今天这样规范。它处于俄罗斯历史的两个阶段之间，即苏联历史和21世纪现代俄罗斯历史之间的中间时期。无论如何，我从那段经历中学到了很多。首先，我进入这所学校是因为我不断被其他学校开除。

  Pavel Durov (01:35:59) Yes, see what happens. This was an experiment and it was in the middle of the ’90s, remember, when Russia, particularly its educational system, wasn’t regulated as much as it is today. It was in the middle between the two stages of the Russian history, the Soviet’s history and the modern Russian history of the 21st century. In any case, I learned a lot from that experience. First of all, why I got into this school is because I kept being kicked out from other schools.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:36:38) 挑战权威？

  Lex Fridman (01:36:38) Challenging authority?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:36:39) 我所有科目都很好，但行为表现不好。在90年代初的苏联，我们有这种行为评分，也许他们今天还有，我不确定。我的行为表现非常差，总是挑战老师，总是指出他们的错误。

  Pavel Durov (01:36:39) I was good at all subjects but not behavior. We had this behavior grade in the Soviet Union in early ’90s, perhaps they even have it today, I’m not sure. I was very bad at behavior, always challenging the teachers, always pointing out their mistakes.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:36:59) 顺便说一下，这并不完全是坏事，对吧？如果你回头看，这对年轻人来说是有一定价值的，也许要带着尊重，但挑战权威，挑战旧的智慧，对吧？

  Lex Fridman (01:36:59) By the way, that’s not such a bad thing, right? If you were looking back, there’s some value to that for young people to, maybe respectfully, but challenge the authority, the wisdom of old, right?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:37:14) 我认为我非常幸运能够这样做，并且最终能够安然无恙，因为通常情况下，如果你不断挑战权威，你只会被所有学校开除，然后一事无成。所以，我最终进入了一所学校，在那里挑战老师虽然不是完全没问题，但却是你可以做的事情，然后你会和老师展开辩论，通常他们会允许你表达你的观点，然后一些客观的真理可能会由此产生。

  Pavel Durov (01:37:14) I think I was very lucky to be able to do that and to be able to get away with it in the end because, normally, if you keep challenging authorities, you just get kicked out of all schools and then you end up nowhere. So, I eventually got into a school where challenging teachers was not fully okay but it was something that you could do and then you would start a debate with the teacher and normally they would allow you to express your point of view and then some objective truth may come out of it as a result.

  (01:37:58) 但在那个时候，我对我的生活感到相当无聊，每个青少年都会到达一个点，当他们有这种存在主义危机时。生活的意义是什么？我到底在这里做什么？在某个时刻，我决定，既然我反正必须上学，我不妨尝试做一些不可能的事情，成为最好的学生，并在每一个科目上都得到A，或者我们在俄罗斯系统中称之为五分，这让我忙了一阵子。

  (01:37:58) But at that point, I was pretty bored with my life, every teenager gets to a point when they have this sort of existential crisis. What’s the point of life? What am I even doing here? At some point, I decided, since I have to go to school anyway, I might as well try to do something impossible and become the best student and get an A or what we called five in the Russian system on every single subject and that kept me busy for a while.

  (01:38:40) 这非常困难，因为你没有足够的时间。即使你只是不停地学习，不做任何其他事情，你也没有任何剩余时间来准备所有的家庭作业、任务并为所有考试做好准备。所以，我最终利用了课间休息时间，但我达到了我想要达到的结果。我在每个科目都得到了优秀的分数，这让我高兴了一阵子。

  (01:38:40) It was incredibly difficult because you didn’t have enough time. Even if you just studied all the time, not doing anything else, you didn’t have any time left to prepare all the homework, tasks and get ready for all the tests. So, I ended up using the breaks between classes but I get to the result I wanted to get to. I got the excellent mark in every subject and that kept me happy for a while.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:39:19) 通过同时学习外语并进行如此多样化的学习，你对一个有效的教育系统有什么理解？如果你要从头开始为年轻人设计一个教育系统，尤其是在21世纪，那会是什么样子？你曾发文谈到数学作为一切基础的价值。

  Lex Fridman (01:39:19) What did you understand about an effective education system from studying foreign language at the same time doing such a diversity? If you were to design an education system from scratch for young people, especially in the 21st century, what would that look like? You posted about the value of mathematics as a foundation for everything.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:39:39) 是的。我仍然认为数学是必不可少的。它能塑造你的大脑，它教你依靠逻辑思维，将大问题分解成小部分，按正确的顺序排列，耐心地解决它们，如果不行就再试一次。这与你编程、项目管理以及当你创办自己的公司时需要的技能完全相同。这是学校里少数几个鼓励你发展自己思维，而不是依赖别人怎么说、只是重复他们观点的科目之一。这是极其宝贵的。当然，一旦你擅长数学，你就可以把它应用到物理、工程、编码中。大多数最成功的科技公司创始人和首席执行官都非常擅长数学和编码，这并不奇怪，因为归根结底，你依赖的是相同的思维技能。

  Pavel Durov (01:39:39) Yeah. I still think math is essential. It’s something that shapes your brain, it teaches you to rely on your logical thinking to split big problems into smaller parts, put them in the right sequence, solve them patiently, trying again if it doesn’t work. This is exactly the same skill you’ll need in programming and project management and start it when you start your own company. And it’s one of the few subjects to school which encourages you to develop your own thinking as opposed to rely on what other people have to say and just repeating their opinions. That is extremely valuable. And of course, once you’re good at math, you can apply it in physics, in engineering, in coding. And it’s not surprising that most of the most successful tech founders and CEOs are very good at matters in coding because, ultimately, it’s the same mental skill that you rely on.

  (01:41:05) 但在当时学校里，我也意识到了另一点，那就是竞争确实非常重要，竞争是关键。这是激励许多青少年的因素，如果有学校存在，如果你把竞争从教育系统中移除，你最终会迫使孩子们开始在其他地方竞争，例如，在电子游戏中。这是你现在在许多国家看到的趋势，包括西方，当善意的当局或父母说我们不希望我们的孩子压力太大，我们不希望他们感到焦虑，所以让我们取消所有公开的评分系统，所有这些谁赢谁输的排名，我们不要任何这些。

  (01:41:05) But back then in the school, I realized something else as well, it’s that competition is really important, competition is key. This is what motivates a lot of teenagers when there is school and, if you remove competition out of the education system, you end up forcing kids to start competing elsewhere, for example, in video games. It’s a trend you see now in many countries, including in the West, when well-meaning authorities or parents say we don’t want our kids to be too stressed, we don’t want them to feel anxiety so let’s just get rid of all the public grading system, all these rankings of who won, who lost, we don’t want any of that.

  (01:42:06) 其中一部分是合理的，但结果是，一些孩子失去了兴趣。是的，你消除了失败者，但你最终也消除了赢家。然后，如果你在那个年龄段对孩子过度保护，他们长大，从学校、大学毕业，他们仍然没有为现实生活做好准备，因为现实生活是为工作、晋升、客户而不断竞争，而且更加残酷。

  (01:42:06) And part of it is justified but, as a result, some kids lose interest. Yes, you eliminate the losers but you end up eliminating the winners as well. And then, if you are overprotective of the kids in that age, they grow up, graduate schools, the universities and they’re still not prepared for real life because real life is constant competition for jobs, for promotions, for customers and it’s more brutal.

  (01:42:47) 你最终得到的是高自杀率、高失业率，以及所有你现在在许多国家看到的负面趋势和事情，这些国家认为从他们的教育系统中消除竞争是个好主意。他们仍然坚持，仍然认为竞争是坏事，他们也在一定程度上试图从他们的经济中消除竞争，说我们要确保失败者不会输，赢家不会得到太多，但结果，他们使他们整个系统、整个经济竞争力下降。

  (01:42:47) What you have as a result is high suicide rates, high unemployment, all the things and negative trends you see now in many countries which thought eliminating competition from their education system was a good idea. They still persist, they still think competition is a bad thing, they try to eliminate competition from their economy as well to an extent saying we are going to make sure the losers don’t lose and the winners don’t get too much but, as a result, they make their entire systems less competitive, their entire economies.

  (01:43:34) 其中一些在欧洲的国家现在正努力跟上大东方国家、韩国、新加坡、日本和其他教育系统基于无情竞争的地方。所以，这是任何文明都必须做出的艰难选择。我们是支持竞争，理解它最终会带来科学技术的进步和整个社会的繁荣，还是我们移除竞争，认为我们可以以某种方式保护后代免受竞争不可避免地带来的压力。

  (01:43:34) Some of them in Europe are now struggling to keep up with BigEast, with South Korea, with Singapore, with Japan and other places where the education system was based on ruthless competition. So, this is a hard choice any civilization has to make. We support competition understanding that, eventually, it leads to progress in science and technology and abundance for society at large or we remove competition thinking that somehow we can shield the future generations from the stress that competition inevitably causes.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:44:22) 是的，这源于一种良好的同情本能，你不想让不擅长某事的人感到痛苦，但似乎挣扎是生活的一部分，你要么早点经历，要么晚点经历。确实，这是个很好的观点，竞争似乎是技能发展的一个非常强大的驱动力，就像你提到的，追求精通。人性中有某种东西，特别是对年轻人来说，如果你能在某件事上竞争，你就会被强烈驱动去把那件事做好。如果你能像大东方国家那样，像你提到的许多国家那样，在教育系统中引导这种竞争，那么你将培养出许多杰出的人才。

  Lex Fridman (01:44:22) Yeah, it’s grounded in a good instinct of compassion, you don’t want people who suck at a thing to feel pain but it seems like struggle is a part of life, either you do it earlier or you do it later. And it’s true, that’s such a good point that competition does seem to be a really powerful driver of skill development, like you mentioned, pursuing mastery. There’s something in human nature that, especially for young people, if you can compete at a thing, you’re going to be really driven to get good at that thing. If you can direct that in the education system as BigEast does, as many nations like you mentioned do, then you’re going to develop a lot of brilliant people.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:45:00) … 那样做，那么你将培养出许多杰出的人才，有韧性的人，准备好在这个世界上创造史诗般成就的人。

  Lex Fridman (01:45:00) … do, then you’re going to develop a lot of brilliant people, resilient people, people that are ready to create epic shit in the world.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:45:07) 我认为有大量证据证明我们在生物学上就被设定为要竞争，并建立我们对自己品质和才能的理解，这种理解是相对于我们周围其他人的，这是社会自我调节的方式之一。

  Pavel Durov (01:45:07) I think there is a lot of evidence proving that we are biologically wired to compete and establish our understanding of what our qualities are and talents are in relation to other people around us, and this is one of the ways society self-regulates.

  尼古拉·杜罗夫

  Nikolai Durov

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:45:30) 说到竞争，你的哥哥尼古拉，他是一位数学家、程序员、密码学专家。他赢得了IMO国际数学奥林匹克竞赛，获得了三次金牌，ICPC编程竞赛，两次获奖，拥有两个数学博士学位，你们已经合作多年，创造了我们一直在谈论的令人难以置信的技术。那么你从你哥哥身上学到了关于生活的什么？

  Lex Fridman (01:45:30) Speaking of competition, your brother, Nikolai, he’s a mathematician, programmer, expert in cryptography. He has won the IMO International Mathematics Olympiad, he got gold medal three times, ICPC programming, two times, has two PhDs in mathematics, and you have worked together for many years creating incredible technologies that we’ve been talking about. So what have you learned about just life from your brother?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:46:02) 嗯，首先，我必须说我从我哥哥那里学到了几乎所有的东西，我所知道的一切，因为当我们还是孩子的时候，我们睡在同一间卧室里，床相隔几英尺，我不停地用问题打扰他。我会问他关于恐龙、星系、黑洞和尼安德特人的问题，所有我能想到的东西，他是我在那个我们还不能上网的时代里的维基百科。他是一个独特的神童，可能是十亿里挑一的。

  Pavel Durov (01:46:02) Well, first of all, I must say I learned pretty much everything from my brother, everything I know, because when we were used to be kids, we slept in the same bedroom, like beds a few feet away from each other, and I kept bugging him with questions. I would ask him about dinosaurs and galaxies and black holes and Neanderthals, everything I could think of, and he was my Wikipedia back in the time when we didn’t have internet access. He’s a unique prodigy kid, probably one of a billion.

  (01:46:45) 我想他三岁就开始阅读，而且他在数学上进步得非常快，到了六岁的时候，他已经能阅读非常复杂的天文学书籍了。有时当他在公共场所这样做时，比如公共汽车或地铁上，我妈妈会受到目睹此事的人的批评。他们会对她说：”你为什么用这本严肃的书来戏弄你自己的小孩？很明显这孩子不能理解里面的所有东西。这太复杂了，连我们都不理解里面的任何东西。里面有一些公式，”而他当时已经在吸收这些知识了。他就是有这种对信息的渴求。

  (01:46:45) He started reading at the age of three, I think, and he pretty fast got so advanced in maths, that by the age of six, he could already read really sophisticated books on astronomy. Sometimes when he did it in public places, like buses or metro, my mom was criticized by people who were witnessing it. They would tell her, “Why are you mocking your own kid with this serious book? It’s obvious that the kid can’t understand everything there. It’s too complicated even we don’t understand anything there. There’s some formulas,” and he was already sucking in this knowledge. He just has this thirst for information.

  (01:47:39) 所以他是各种伟大事实、有用东西、鼓舞人心事物的来源。他教给了我几乎我所知道的一切。同时，他极其谦虚和善良，我认为这是许多自以为聪明但缺乏普遍智慧的人所欠缺的。大多数情况下，真正聪明的人，他们也善良且富有同情心。

  (01:47:39) So he was the source of all kind of great facts, useful things, inspiring things. He taught me pretty much everything I know. At the same time, he’s incredibly modest and kind, and this is something I think a lot of people that think they’re smart but not generally intelligent lack. More often than not, people who are truly intelligent, they’re also kind and compassionate.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:48:18) 他是那样的人吗？

  Lex Fridman (01:48:18) And he is that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:48:20) 绝对是。

  Pavel Durov (01:48:20) Definitely.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:48:21) 你实际上大部分时间都远离公众视线。你很少接受采访，相当低调，但你的哥哥是另一个级别的。他一直远离公众视线。这背后是什么原因？

  Lex Fridman (01:48:21) You actually have been staying out of the public eye for the most part. You’ve done very few interviews, you’re pretty low-key, but your brother is in another level. He’s been staying out of the public eye. What’s behind that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:48:34) 部分原因是他天生的谦逊。他不需要这样做。他没有那种炫耀、吹嘘事情的冲动。我也试图避免，但在某个时刻，我意识到我过于私密、过于隐秘变成了一种负担，因为它制造了这种空白，这种空虚，那些非常不喜欢 Telegram 的个人和组织愿意用不准确的信息来填补，他们愿意传播关于 Telegram 的叙事，这可能导致奇怪的情况，其中一些我们之前讨论过。例如，那个法国的调查。

  Pavel Durov (01:48:34) Part of it is his natural modesty. He doesn’t need to do it. He doesn’t feel this urge to show off, brag about stuff. I tried to avoid it as well, but at a certain point I realized that me being too private, too secretive becomes a liability because it creates this void, this emptiness that people and organizations that don’t like Telegram very much are willing to fill with inaccurate information and they’re willing to spread the narratives about Telegram, which can result in strange situations, some of which we discussed earlier. For example, this French investigation.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:49:32) 是的，我越来越了解你，你身上有一种深刻的诚信，我认为向世界展示这一点是好的。用户隐私面临很多攻击向量，我认为最重要、最后的保护墙是实际运营公司的人，所以在某种程度上，你出现在那里展示真实的自我是很重要的。

  Lex Fridman (01:49:32) Yeah, I’ve gotten to know you more and more and there’s a deep integrity to you that I think is good to show to the world. There’s a lot of attack vectors on user privacy and I think the most important, the last wall of protection is the actual people that are running the company, so it’s important to some degree for you to be out there to showing your true self.

  编程和电子游戏

  Programming and video games

  (01:49:55) 所以我们应该说一下，你虽然没有提到，但你从小就是一名程序员。你10岁开始编码。你最早构建的东西是在11岁时制作的一款电子游戏，然后最终在10年后，21岁时，你独立编程了VK的最初版本。你能跟我谈谈你的编程历程，以及它如何引导到VK的创建吗？VK的技术栈是什么？主要是PHP吗？你是如何学会编程网站，所有这一切的？

  (01:49:55) So we should say that also you didn’t mention, but you were a programmer from an early age. You started coding at 10. First things you built are a video game at 11, and then eventually 10 years later, 21, you programmed the initial versions of VK single-handedly. Can you talk to me about your programming journey that led to the creation of VK? What was the VK stack? Is it PHP mostly? How did you figure out how to program websites, all of that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:50:27) 是的，我起初可能对网站不那么感兴趣。我10岁的时候甚至还不能上网，但我喜欢电子游戏。我没有足够的游戏，这种稀缺性迫使我开始制作它们，更多的是电脑游戏，只是为了自己玩。

  Pavel Durov (01:50:27) Yeah, I wasn’t as interested in probably websites at first. I didn’t even have access to the internet when I was 10 years old, but I liked video games. I didn’t have enough of them and the scarcity forced me to start building them, more computer games, just to play myself.

  (01:50:49) 这实际上是一件有趣的事情，我们有时没有意识到，但稀缺导致创造力，来自苏联或其他无法获得太多现代技术，更重要的是现代娱乐的地方，有那么多热爱编码的人的原因之一是，也许我们没有被所有这些丰富的不同娱乐选项所分散注意力，这并不是说拥有这些选项是坏事。这只是我们有时没有意识到的一个事实。

  (01:50:49) It’s actually an interesting thing that we sometimes don’t realize it, but scarcity leads to creativity, and one of the reasons you have so many people who love to code coming from the Soviet Union or other places which didn’t have much access to modern technology, and more importantly modern entertainment, is that perhaps we were not so much distracted by all this abundance of different entertainment options, which is not to say it’s bad to have those options. It’s just a fact that we sometimes don’t appreciate.

  (01:51:34) 所以我开始构建电脑游戏。我哥哥有时会指导我。例如，我会创建一个回合制策略游戏。当然是二维的。那时候三维对我来说太难了。但在滚动FPS、每秒帧数参数方面，它不够流畅，我问我哥哥如何优化它。他会指导我，这种学习和训练在我年轻时就塑造了我的编码技能。

  (01:51:34) So I started to build computer games. My brother would sometimes guide me. For example, I would create a turn-based strategy. Of course, two-dimensional. Back then three-dimensional was too much for me. But it wasn’t as slick in terms of the scrolling FPS, frames per second, parameter, and I asked my brother how to optimize it. He would guide me, and this kind of learning and training really shaped my coding skills when I was younger.

  (01:52:21) 然后我开始为我的同学们创建电子游戏，例如，当我们在课间休息时在教室里玩无限区域上的井字游戏时。不是三子连珠的井字游戏，这是关于五子连珠，并且是在一个无限区域上。这是一个有趣得多的游戏，如果你继续玩下去，它会变得相当复杂。我的同学们曾经很喜欢它，我的一些同学非常聪明，是数学奥林匹克竞赛的冠军，是大学里教授们的子女，我决定，”不，我想每次都赢。我甚至一次都不想输。那么我怎么能赢呢？我需要更多练习，但我怎么才能更多练习呢？我需要一个比我更强的对手。”

  (01:52:21) Then I started to create video games for my classmates when we played, for example, tic-tac-toe on an infinite field in my class during the breaks. And not tic-tac-toe the three in a row, this was about five in a row and in an infinite field. This is a much more interesting game and it gets quite complicated if you keep playing it. My classmates used to love it and some of my classmates were really smart, champions of math olympiads, sons and daughters of professors at the university, and I decided, “No, I want to win every single time. I don’t want to lose even a single time. So how do I win? I need to practice more, but how do I practice more? I need an opponent stronger than myself.”

  (01:53:08) 所以我编写了这个游戏，这样我就可以和电脑对战，电脑会计算，我想，提前四步来选择最优策略。那还不够。提前四步，我仍然能赢它。如果我尝试计算五步或六步，那就太慢了，所以请我哥哥帮我。于是他做了这个算法。最终，我训练自己每次都赢，即使和电脑对战，那时候我们没有现代CPU，我仍然可以保持一些自信。

  (01:53:08) So I coded this game so that I would play against the computer and the computer would calculate, I think, four moves in advance to choose the optimal strategy. That wasn’t enough. Four moves in advance, I would still win over it. If I tried to calculate five or six, it was too slow, so asked my brother to help me out here. So he made this algorithm. Eventually, I trained myself to win every single time, even with the computer back then, we didn’t have modern CPUs, and I could still retain some self-confidence.

  (01:53:54) 我会在课间休息时回到学校，和我的同学们玩，很快人们就开始失去兴趣。我的同学中没有人再想玩这个游戏了。我毁掉了这个游戏，因为…

  (01:53:54) I would go back to school during breaks, play with my classmates, and soon people started to lose interest. None of my classmates wanted to play this game anymore. I killed the game because there’s…

  VK 起源与工程

  VK origins & engineering

  (01:54:09) 在那之后，当我进入圣彼得堡国立大学时，仅仅学习是相当无聊的，因为太容易了。所以我想，”我在那里能做什么？” 我首先为我所在院系的学生创建了一个网站。我组织了将所有考试的答案和所有讲座的数字化版本创建起来，这在那时是非常独特的。记住，那是25年前。我会建立一个网站，在那里发布所有这些材料，很快它就变得非常受欢迎。我在那里开了一个讨论论坛。几年内，我将其扩展到了大学的所有其他部门，然后扩展到其他大学。最终我们拥有了数万用户，仅仅作为一个学生门户。我们在那里有各种社交功能，好友列表、相册、个人资料、博客。应有尽有。

  (01:54:09) So after that, when I got into the St. Petersburg State University, it was quite boring just to study because it was too easy. So I thought, “What can I do there?” I created a website for the students of my faculty first. I organized the creation of digital answers to all exams and digitalized version of all lectures, which was something very unique back then. Remember, it was 25 years ago. I would put together a website where I would publish all this materials, and pretty soon it became super popular. I opened a discussion forum there. In a few years, I expanded to the university with all of its other departments, and then to other universities. We ended up having tens of thousands of users just as a student’s portal. We had all kinds of social features there, friends lists, photo albums, profiles, blogs. All of it.

  (01:55:29) 它相当成功，在我大学毕业后，我的一位中学同学在看到圣彼得堡主要商业报纸上关于我成功的报道后联系了我，他问我，”你是在尝试打造一个俄罗斯的Facebook吗？” 我说，”我不确定。什么是Facebook？” 于是我们见面了。由于他两年前从一所美国大学毕业，他向我展示了Facebook。我想，”嗯，我已经拥有了所有这些技术，但知道我应该去掉哪些元素以便扩展这个东西并拥有数百万用户是很有价值的。”

  (01:55:29) It was quite successful, and after I graduated the university, one of my ex-classmates from the school reached out to me after reading about my successes in a newspaper, the main business newspaper of St. Petersburg, and he asked me, “Are you trying to build a Russian Facebook?” I said, “I’m not sure. What’s Facebook?” So we met. Since he graduated an American university two years before that, he showed me Facebook. I thought, “Well, I can’t already have all of this technology, but it’s valuable to know which elements I should get rid of in order to scale this thing and have millions of users.”

  (01:56:25) 这也是人们没有意识到的一点，有时候为了向前发展并获得更多成功，你必须舍弃一些东西，包括技术。舍弃功能非常重要。

  (01:56:25) This is also something people don’t appreciate that sometimes in order to move forward and have more success, you have to get rid of things, including technology. Getting rid of features is super important.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:56:40) 简化，既是为了扩展，也是为了使其易于用户基础增长，让人们能立即理解。

  Lex Fridman (01:56:40) Simplify, both for scaling and for making it amenable to just growing the user base where people get it immediately.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:56:50) 是的。否则，对新用户来说就太复杂了。现有用户会很高兴，他们会赞美你，他们会要求你添加更多东西，让它变得更复杂，所以如果你只依赖现有用户的反馈，很容易迷失方向，不知所措。

  Pavel Durov (01:56:50) Yes. Otherwise, it’s just too complicated for the new user. The existing users will be happy, they’ll be praising you, they will be asking you to add more stuff to make it even more complicated, so it’s easy to lose track and get disoriented if you are only relying on the feedback of existing users.

  (01:57:18) 因此，我启动了一个名为 VKontakte 或 VK 的网站，在俄语中意思是”保持联系”，最初是为了解决我个人的问题。我那一年大学毕业，我想与我在大学里的老同学和其他同学保持联系。当然，作为一个20岁的年轻人，我也想认识其他人，包括漂亮的女孩。

  (01:57:18) So as a result, I started the website called VKontakte or VK, it means “in touch” in Russian, initially to solve my own personal problem. I graduated the university that same year and I wanted to be in touch or remain in touch with my ex-classmates from the university and the other fellow students. And of course, as a 20-year-old, I wanted to meet other people, including good-looking girls.

  (01:57:46) 所以我从头开始构建它。对于这个项目，我想，”我不会使用任何第三方库、模块，因为我想让它尽可能高效。” 我痴迷于每一行代码，但那么庞大的项目该如何开始呢？我之前没有任何创建那种规模项目的经验，那将涉及所有方面。以前，我会重用一些现有的解决方案。在这里，我想从头开始构建。

  (01:57:46) So I started to build it from scratch. For that one, I thought, “I’m not going to use any third-party libraries, modules because I want to make it as efficient as possible.” I was obsessing over every line of code, but then how do you start something that large? I didn’t have any prior experience creating a project of that scale, which would involve everything. Before, I would reuse some existing solutions. Here, I wanted to build from scratch.

  (01:58:26) 所以我打电话给我哥哥。他当时是德国马克斯·普朗克大学的博士后，我问他，”我应该从哪里开始？” 他告诉我，”就构建一个用户认证模块，只是登录，甚至不用登出，只是登录，因为你可以用凭证、邮箱和密码预填充数据库。这并不重要。但一旦你看到你可以输入你的密码和邮箱，然后你进去了，它用你的名字对你说’你好’，那么你就会清楚地知道该从哪里继续了。”

  (01:58:26) So I called my brother. He was a post-doc student in Germany at the time in the Max Planck university, and I asked him, “What should I start from?” And he told me, “Just build a module to authorize users, just to log in, not even to sign out, just to log in because you can pre-populate the database with credentials and emails and passwords. It doesn’t really matter. But once you see that you can type in your password and email and you are in and it tells you, ‘Hello,’ using your name, then you will have a clear understanding where to go from there.”

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:59:22) 是的。我的意思是，确实如此。

  Lex Fridman (01:59:22) Yeah. I mean, that’s true.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:59:24) 这是我一生中收到的最好的建议之一。顺便说一句，它效果非常好。我开始构建它，在我意识到之前，我就在网站上有了相册、私信、这个留言簿。我们过去在VK上，我猜在Facebook早期，称之为”墙”。我们最终构建了比当时Facebook更复杂、功能更多的东西。

  Pavel Durov (01:59:24) That’s one of the best advice I’ve ever got in my life. It worked perfectly, by the way. I started to build it and before I knew it, I would have there on the website photo albums, private messages, this guest book. We used to call it “thee wall” back on VK and I guess in the early days of Facebook. We’d end up building something even more sophisticated than Facebook at the time with more features.

  (01:59:54) 我当时有个女朋友。我请她，”我们需要以某种方式建立所有俄罗斯学校和大学以及系和细分部门的数据库。” 她做得非常出色，尝试在线搜集所有这些信息，有时给大学写邮件说，”你们目前到底有哪些系？我们需要知道，”或者联系教育部，在俄罗斯，然后在乌克兰，最终在白俄罗斯和哈萨克斯坦以及其他VK最终成为最大和最受欢迎的社交网络的国家。

  (01:59:54) I had a girlfriend at the time. I asked her, “We need to somehow come up with a database of all Russian schools and universities and the departments and subdivisions.” She did a great job trying to source all this information online or sometimes writing emails to universities saying, “Which departments do you have exactly at this point? We need to know,” or reaching out to the Department of Education, but in Russia and then in Ukraine, and then eventually in Belarus and in Kazakhstan and other countries where VK ended up to be the largest and most popular social network.

  (02:00:38) 所以我们当时做了一些相当独特的事情，在最初的将近一年里，我是公司唯一的员工。我是后端工程师、前端工程师、设计师。我是客服人员。我也是市场人员，想出所有的措辞和公告，想出推广VK的竞赛，这些效果相当好。那是一段不可思议的经历，让我了解了社交网络平台的方方面面。

  (02:00:38) So we did a few things that were quite unique at the time, and for the first almost a year, I was the single employee of the company. I was the backend engineer, the front-end engineer, the designer. I was the customer support officer. I was the marketing guy as well, coming up with all the wordings and the announcements, coming up with competitions to promote VK, which worked quite well. That was an incredible experience that gave me knowledge of every aspect of a social networking platform.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:01:30) 也理解了单个人能做多少事。

  Lex Fridman (02:01:30) Also understanding of how much a single person can do.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:01:32) 完全正确。这是为什么我喜欢认为自己是Telegram内部高效的项目经理和产品经理的原因之一，因为我只会向我的团队成员要求雄心勃勃的截止日期。如果有人给我，”哦，我需要三周时间来做那个，”我总是回答，”嗯，我构建VK的第一个版本只用了两周。你为什么需要三周？看起来像是你三天就能完成的事情。三周？除了这三天，剩下的三周你打算做什么？”

  Pavel Durov (02:01:32) Exactly. It’s one of the reasons why I’d like to think I’m an efficient project manager and product manager inside Telegram because I will not take anything but ambitious deadlines from my team members. If somebody gives me, “Oh, I need three weeks to do that,” I always reply, “Well, I built the first version of VK in just two weeks. Why would you need three weeks? It seems like something you could make real in just three days. Three weeks? What are you going to do the rest of the three weeks apart from this three days?”

  (02:02:18) 团队了解我，这就是为什么我们今天，Telegram，能够以非常快的创新步伐前进。每个月我们都会推出几个有意义的功能，我认为在这个行业中，在短时间内能完成的事情方面，我们超越了所有其他人。所以是的，那段经历是无价的。

  (02:02:18) And the team knows me, and that’s why we are able today, Telegram, to move at a very good pace of innovation. Every month we’re pushing several meaningful features, I think out-competing everybody else in this industry in terms of what you can do within a short timeframe. So yes, that experience was invaluable.

  (02:02:52) 至于技术栈，我从PHP和MySQL，Debian Linux开始，但很快我意识到，”我需要优化这个。” 我开始使用Memcached。Apache服务器不够用了。我们不得不设置NGINX。我哥哥当时还住在德国，所以在构建VK的第一年里，他帮不了我太多。有时我设法通过电话联系到他。我会用老式的有线电话打给他。我说，”我该怎么办？我怎么安装这个叫NGINX的东西？我不是Linux专家。” 如果他那天感觉特别好心并且不太忙，他会告诉我怎么做或者亲自设置，但大多数情况下，我不得不只依靠自己。

  (02:02:52) As for the stack, I started from PHP and MySQL, Debian Linux, but very soon I realized, “I need to optimize this.” I started using Memcached. Apache servers were not enough anymore. We had to set up NGINX. And my brother was still living in Germany, so he couldn’t help me much for the first year of building VK. Sometimes I would manage to get through to him through a call. I would use an old-school phone to call him with wires. I said, “What do I do? How do I install this thing called NGINX? I’m not a Linux guy.” If he felt particularly kind that day and not too busy, he would show me the way to do it or set it up himself, but for the most part, I had to rely on just myself.

  (02:03:53) 然而，有他在那里对我们开始快速增长并开始扩展时有帮助，因为起初，你意识到，”一台服务器不够了。我需要再买一台。然后一台又一台。” 数据库应该在另一台服务器上。然后你必须把数据库分成表。然后你必须想出一种方法，根据某种不会破坏你用户体验的有意义的标准来对表进行分片。

  (02:03:53) Having him there though helped when we started to grow fast and started to scale it, because at first, you realize, “One server is not enough. I need to buy another one. Then another one and another one.” The database should be in a different server. Then you have to split the database into tables. Then you have to come up with a way to chart the tables using some criteria that would make sense that wouldn’t break your user experience.

  (02:04:28) 当我们用户超过一百万，服务器超过十几台时，没有我哥哥在扩展方面的投入，生存下去变得不可能。我记得请他回来，”你需要帮我处理这个东西。它开始变得非常庞大了。” 更糟糕的是，自从我们变得流行起来，有人开始对我们进行DDoS攻击，就像经常发生的那样。然后我们有人想购买VK的股份，有趣的是，每次我们有谈判的日子，DDoS攻击就会加剧，所以我们不得不找出应对的方法。我记得有很多个不眠之夜试图解决它。

  (02:04:28) When we got to over a million users and beyond a dozen of servers surviving without the input from my brother in terms of taking care of the scaling aspect, it became impossible. I remember asking him to come back, “You need to help me with this thing. It’s starting to be really big.” What was worse is that since we became popular, somebody started to do DDoS attacks on us, as it always happens. And then we had people that wanted to buy a share of VK, and interestingly, every time we had a negotiation day, the DDoS attacks intensified, so we had to come up with a way to fight it. I remembered having many sleepless nights trying to figure it out.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:05:30) 所以这是你初次接触各种恶意行为者，DDoS，商业。然后后来你会发现还有政治这种东西，然后后来，地缘政治。但这是初始阶段，不仅仅是创造酷炫的东西，还必须应对，就像你现在必须应对Telegram一样，是大量的恶意行为者试图测试系统的极限，试图破坏系统。

  Lex Fridman (02:05:30) So that was your introduction to all kinds of bad actors, DDoS, business. Then later you’d find out there’s such a thing called politics, and then later, geopolitics. But this is the initial stages, that it’s not just about creating cool stuff, it’s having to deal with, as you now have to deal with with Telegram, is seas of bad actors trying to test the limits of the system, trying to break the system.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:06:02) 不幸的是。如果我们没有恶意行为者和压力，那将是最好的工作。你只需要创造。

  Pavel Durov (02:06:02) Unfortunately. If we didn’t have bad actors and pressure, it would be the best job ever. You just get to create.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:06:12) 是的，是的。所以你哥哥的帮助，就像你提到的NGINX和对表进行分片，这些扩展问题有些是算法性质的。这几乎像是理论计算机科学。所以不仅仅是买更多电脑，而是要弄清楚如何在算法上让一切运行得极快，所以其中一些是数学。一些是纯粹的工程，但一些是数学。

  Lex Fridman (02:06:12) Yeah, yeah. And so the help from your brother, like you mentioned NGINX and charting the tables, some of this scaling issue is algorithmic nature. It’s almost like theoretical computer science. So it’s not just about buying more computers, it’s figuring out how to algorithmically make everything work extremely fast, so some of it’s mathematics. Some of it is pure engineering, but some of it is mathematics.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:06:44) 是的。所以在那个阶段，我能做基本的事情。我能理解如何将可扩展性实现到代码库中，如何对数据库中的表进行分片，在哪里使用Memcached而不是直接请求数据库。那在当时还挺容易的，因为那时候还是PHP。

  Pavel Durov (02:06:44) Yeah. So at that stage, I could do the basic stuff. I could understand how I implement scalability into the code base, how I chart my tables in the database, where I include Memcached instead of direct requests to the database. That was quite easy because it was still PHP back in the day.

  (02:07:14) 当我哥哥在2008年左右从德国回来时，我问他，”我们能让它更高效吗？我们能让它超级快，同时让我们需要更少的服务器来维持负载吗？” 他说，”可以，但PHP不够。我将不得不用C和C++重写你数据引擎的大部分。” 我说，”好的，我们干吧。”

  (02:07:14) When my brother got back from Germany somewhere around 2008, I asked him, “Can we make it even more efficient? Can we make it super fast and at the same time so that we would require even fewer servers to maintain the load?” And he said, “Yes, but PHP is not enough. I’ll have to rewrite big part of your data engines in C and C++.” I said, “Okay, let’s do that.”

  (02:07:47) 他邀请了他的一个朋友来帮忙，另一个世界编程竞赛的绝对冠军，连续两次，他们一起构建了第一个定制化的数据引擎，它比仅仅依赖MySQL和Memcached要高效得多，因为首先，它更专业，更底层。

  (02:07:47) He invited a friend of his to help him, another absolute champion in world’s programming contest, twice in a row, and they put together the first customized data engine, which was far more efficient than just relying on MySQL and Memcached because it was, first of all, more specialized, more low-level.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:08:19) 所以他们用C, C++重写了它？

  Lex Fridman (02:08:19) So they rewrote it in C, C++?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:08:21) 一大部分。例如，搜索，广告引擎，因为VK有定向广告，他们构建了那个。他们做的非常高效。最终，私信部分，公共消息部分。在某个时刻，我们意识到线上很少有网站比VK加载更快。

  Pavel Durov (02:08:21) A large chunk of it. For example, the search, the ad engine, because VK had targeted ads, they built that. It was very efficient what they did. Eventually, the private messaging part, the public messages part. At some point, we realized there are very few websites online that load faster than VK.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:08:48) 很好。

  Lex Fridman (02:08:48) Nice.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:08:49) 我记得在2009年，我去了硅谷，第一次见到了马克·扎克伯格和Facebook早期的一些其他核心团队成员。记住，Facebook当时才四五岁。每个人都不断问我，”为什么即使在硅谷这里，VK加载也比Facebook快？你网站上的一切似乎都是瞬间出现的。秘诀是什么？” 这是让他们非常好奇的事情之一。

  Pavel Durov (02:08:49) I remember in 2009, I went to Silicon Valley and I met Mark Zuckerberg the first time and some of the other core team members of early Facebook. Remember, Facebook was just four or five years old. And everybody kept asking me, “How come even here in Silicon Valley, VK loads faster than Facebook? Everything seems to appear instantly on your website. What’s the secret sauce?” That was one of the things that made them very curious

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:09:25) 这一直对你很重要，要有非常低的延迟，确保东西加载快，因为这是Telegram真正出名的地方之一。即使在烂连接上等等，它也能运行得极快。一切都很快。

  Lex Fridman (02:09:25) And that was always important to you, to have very low latency to make sure the thing loads because that’s one of the things Telegram is really known for. Even on crappy connections and all that kind of stuff, it just works extremely fast. Everything is fast.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:09:37) 作为核心技术理念之一，我们优先考虑速度。我们认为人们能注意到差异，即使只是5000万毫秒的差异。这种差异是潜意识的。它也让我们不仅在速度更快、响应更及时方面有优势，而且在基础设施、开支方面也更高效。因为如果你的代码执行得更快，意味着你需要更少的计算资源来运行它。

  Pavel Durov (02:09:37) As one of the core technological ideas, we prioritize speed. We think that people can notice the difference, even if it’s just 50 million millisecond difference. The difference is subconscious. It also allows us not just to be faster and more responsive, but also more efficient when it comes to the infrastructure, the expenses. Because if your code executes faster, it means you need fewer computational resources to run it.

  (02:10:16) 所以让东西更快你不可能输，这就是为什么我们在招聘人员时一直非常谨慎。我只会雇佣我最终确定是最佳选择的人，因为如果你雇佣了一个可能有点分心、缺乏经验的人，你最终可能会在代码库中引入低效，导致数千万美元的损失。想想这个责任，就像如果我们从VK时代跳到今天，Telegram被超过十亿人使用。他们每天打开它几十次。想象一下，如果应用打开时有轻微的延迟，比如半秒的延迟。乘以几十次，再乘以十亿。这是人类无缘无故就损失了几个世纪、几千年的时间，仅仅因为马虎。

  (02:10:16) So there is no way you can lose in making things faster, and that’s why we have always been very careful when hiring people. I would only hire a person if I’m ultimately certain is the best option because if you hire somebody who is maybe a little bit distracted, unexperienced, you may end up with inefficiencies in your code base that results in tens of millions of dollars of losses. And think about the responsibility, like if we jump to today from the VK days, Telegram is used by over a billion people. They open it dozens of times every day. Imagine the app opens with a slight delay, say, half-a-second delay. Multiply by dozens of times by a billion. It’s centuries, millennia lost for humanity without any reason other than just being sloppy.

  雇佣优秀团队

  Hiring a great team

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:11:24) 理解这一点非常重要，也非常明智，实际上，如果你作为一个开发者只是有点粗心，你可能会引入难以追踪的低效，因为你不知道它可以更快。代码不会对你尖叫说，”这个可以快得多。” 所以你必须实际上，作为一个工匠，在编写代码时非常小心，并且总是思考，”这个能更高效地完成吗？” 而且可能只是很小的事情，因为它们都会在整个代码中传播，所以在公司任何地方有一个粗心的开发者都会带来真正的成本，因为他们可能引入那种低效，而所有其他开发者不会知道。他们会以为本来就该那样。

  Lex Fridman (02:11:24) That is so important to understand and so wise that it’s actually, if you’re just a little bit careless as a developer, you can introduce inefficiencies that are going to be very difficult to track down because you don’t know that it can be faster. The code doesn’t scream at you saying, “This could be much faster.” So you have to actually, as a craftsman, be very careful when you’re writing a code and always thinking, “Can this be done much more efficiently?” And it can be tiny things because they all propagate throughout the code, and so there’s a real cost in having a careless developer anywhere in the company because they can introduce that inefficiency and all the other developers won’t know. They’ll just assume it kind of has to be that way.

  (02:12:11) 所以每个构建像Telegram这样的应用任何组件的个体开发者都有真正的责任，要总是问，”好吧，这个能更高效地完成吗？这个能更简单地完成吗？” 而这是编程最美丽的方面之一，艺术形式，对吧？

  (02:12:11) So there’s a real responsibility for every single individual developer that’s building any component of an app like Telegram to just always ask, “Okay, can this be done more efficiently? Can this be done more simply?” And that’s one of the most beautiful aspects, the art forms of programming, right?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:12:32) 哦，是的，因为当你设法发现一种简化事物、让它们更高效的方法时，你会感到难以置信的快乐、自豪和成就感。

  Pavel Durov (02:12:32) Oh, yes, because when you manage to discover a way to simplify things, make them more efficient, you feel incredibly happy and proud and accomplished.

  (02:12:47) 说到你的观点，我能回忆起我职业生涯中的几个例子，解雇一名工程师实际上导致了生产力的提高。假设你有两个安卓工程师构建他们的应用，然后他们就是做不到。他们跟不上功能发布的时间表。你想，”我可能得雇佣第三个，”但然后你注意到其中一个真的很奇怪，落后于进度，有时抱怨，不承担责任。你问，”那么，如果我直接解雇这个人会怎样？” 你解雇了这个人。几周后，你意识到你实际上不需要任何新人，从来就不需要第三个工程师。问题在于这个家伙，他制造的问题比他解决的还多。

  (02:12:47) And to your point, I can recall a few instances in my career where firing an engineer actually resulted to an increase in productivity. Say you have two Android engineers building their app and then they just can’t make it. They’re not keeping up with the pace of the feature release schedule. And you think, “I probably have to hire a third one,” but then you notice that one of them is really weird, falling behind the schedule, complaining some of the time, doesn’t assume responsibility. And you ask, “So what if I just fire this person?” And you fire this person. In a few weeks, you realize you actually don’t need any new, never needed the third engineer. The problem was this guy who created more issues and more problems than he solved.

  (02:13:49) 这太违反直觉了，因为在开发技术项目时，我们倾向于认为你只需要把更多的人扔进某件事，然后事情就会奇迹般地自行解决，仅仅因为更多的人意味着他们现在投入更多注意力。

  (02:13:49) That is so counterintuitive because in developing tech projects, we tend to think that you just throw more people into something and then things get solved miraculously by themselves just because more people means more attention from them now.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:14:12) 这，再次，极其有力。史蒂夫·乔布斯谈论过A级玩家和B级玩家，当你拥有B级玩家，也就是你谈到的那类人，加入团队时，会发生一些事情，他们 somehow 会让每个人都慢下来。他们让每个人失去动力。而且非常违反直觉的是，你基本上，创建优秀团队工作的一部分是移除B级玩家。不仅仅是雇佣更多人，一般来说。是找到”A级玩家”并移除那些拖慢事情的人。

  Lex Fridman (02:14:12) That’s, again, extremely powerful. Steve Jobs talked about A players and B players, and there’s something that happens when you have B players, which is like the folks you’re talking about. Introduced into a team, they can somehow slow everybody down. They demotivate everybody. And it’s very counterintuitive that you basically, part of the work of creating a great team is removing the B players. It’s not just hiring more, generally speaking. It’s finding the “A players” and removing the people that are slowing things down.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:14:48) 哦，是的，因为人们没有意识到的另一件事是，与B级玩家一起工作是多么令人沮丧。每个人都能分辨出对方，他们与之共事的另一个工程师是否真的有能力。如果这个人不舒服，这是非常明显的。他们问错误的问题，他们不断落后。在某个时刻，如果你是一个A级玩家，你会感到这种不满，这种感觉，你无法实现你的全部潜力，完成你真正应该完成的事情，就是因为这个人就在你旁边工作或假装在你旁边工作。

  Pavel Durov (02:14:48) Oh, yes, because the other thing that people don’t realize is how demotivating working with a B player is. Everybody can tell if the other person, the other engineer they’re working with is really competent. And it’s very visible if the person is not comfortable. They’re asking the wrong questions, they keep lagging behind. And at a certain point, if you’re an A player, you get this dissatisfaction, this feeling that you are not able to realize your full potential, accomplish what you’re really meant to accomplish because of this person working next to you or pretending to work next to you.

  (02:15:37) 顺便说一下，在某些情况下，不是因为这个人懒。在某些情况下，只是心智、智力能力不够。这不是关于经验。大多数情况下是关于天生能力和毅力。在90%的情况下，只是无法长时间专注于一项任务。不是每个人都有这种能力。所以对于有这种能力的人来说，与一个分心、无法深入他们负责的项目的人一起工作是一种侮辱。

  (02:15:37) And by the way, in some cases, it’s not because the person is lazy. In some cases it’s just the mental, the intellectual ability is not there. It’s not about experience. Most often it’s about natural ability and persistence. In 90% of cases, it’s just the inability to focus on one task for an extended period of time. Not everybody has this ability. So for people who do have this ability, it’s an insult to work alongside someone who is distracted and cannot go deep in the projects that they’re responsible for.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:16:27) 关于这个小插曲，你的招聘流程是怎样的？你已经展示并谈到你经常使用竞赛，编码竞赛来招聘，以找到优秀的工程师。这背后的想法是什么？

  Lex Fridman (02:16:27) On this small tangent, what’s your hiring process? So you’ve shown and you’ve talked about how you use competitions often, coding competitions to hire to find great engineers. What’s your thinking behind that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:16:40) 嗯，这符合我的整体理念。我认为竞争带来进步。如果你想为某些你心中有数的特定任务选择最合格的人建立一个理想的流程，有什么能比竞赛更好呢？一个编码比赛，每个想加入你公司做工程师，或者只是想获得一些奖金或认可的人，都可以展示他们的技能，然后我们只选择最好的。或者如果我们不确定，因为数据不足而无法雇佣某人，我们就用另一个任务重复比赛，获取更多数据，获取更多获胜者，然后再重复。

  Pavel Durov (02:16:40) Well, it’s in line with my overall philosophy. I think competition leads to progress. If you want to create an ideal process for selecting the most qualified people for certain specific tasks you have in mind, what can be better than a competition? A coding contest where everybody who wants to join your company as an engineer or just wants to get some prize money or validation can demonstrate their skills, and then we just select the best. Or if we are not certain because there’s not enough data to hire somebody, we just repeat the contest with another task, get more data, get more winners, then repeat again.

  (02:17:31) 在某个时刻，你意识到，”哦，实际上这个家伙从16岁或14岁起就参加了我们的10次比赛。现在他20或21岁了。他在其中八次比赛中获胜。他似乎在JavaScript、安卓、Java以及C++方面真的很棒。为什么不雇佣这个人呢？” 这里有一致性。

  (02:17:31) And at some point, you realize, “Oh, actually this guy has competed in 10 of our contests since he was 16 years old or 14 years old. Now he’s 20 or 21. He won in eight of these competitions. He seems to be really good in JavaScript on Android, Java, and also C++. Why not hire this person?” There’s some consistency there.

  (02:18:04) 而且很多这样的人，他们以前从未在大公司工作过，这是无价的，因为在大公司，人们倾向于推卸责任。他们有这种共同责任，以至于没有人完全理解谁能为一个项目负责，谁该为一个项目受责备。在Telegram内部，这是非常清楚的，而这些比赛是最接近人们在Telegram工作时会有的体验。

  (02:18:04) And a lot of these people, they have never worked in a big company before, which is priceless because in a big company, people tend to shift responsibility. They have this shared responsibility wherein nobody fully understands who can take credit for a project, who can take blame for a project. Inside Telegram, it’s pretty clear, and these competitions are the closest experience to what people will have when working at Telegram.

  (02:18:46) 例如，我们想在Telegram安卓版本的资料页面上实现某个非常棘手的动画和重新设计。安卓应用，它是一个开源应用。任何人都可以获取它的代码并摆弄它。因此，我们不仅会选择最好的人并雇佣这个人，我们还会选择问题的最佳解决方案，因为我们不会建议参赛者解决琐碎的问题。这是有价值的东西。它在开发方面为我们节省了大量时间。

  (02:18:46) So for example, we want to implement certain very tricky animation and redesign to the profile page of the Telegram’s Android version. And the Android app, it’s an open-source app. Anybody can take its code and play with it. So as a result, we would not just select the best person and hire this person, we would also select the best solution to the problem because we would not suggest the contestants to solve trivial problems. It’s something that’s valuable. It saves a lot of time for us in terms of development.

  (02:19:24) 而且因为我一直拥有这些大型社交媒体平台，我可以用它们来推广这些比赛， somehow VK和Telegram在工程师、设计师和其他技术人员中都非常受欢迎，我从来没有问题推广这些比赛并找到合适的人。对于你公司的员工来说，有什么能比一个一直是其用户的人更好呢？这个人没有使用Telegram的先验经验。

  (02:19:24) And because I always had this large social media platforms, which I could use to promote these competitions, somehow both VK and Telegram were very popular among engineers and designers, other tech people, I had no issue to promote this contest and find the right people ever. And what can be better than, for an employee of your company, somebody who has been a user of it? This person has no prior experience of using Telegram.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:20:00) 这个人没有使用Telegram的先验经验。他们的理解会非常有限。我为什么要甚至尝试从LinkedIn雇佣某个在谷歌和其他公司工作过的人，习惯于无功受禄，习惯于推卸责任和陷入无休止的会议，并且对Telegram代表什么理解有限？如果你仔细想想，这简直是疯了。

  Pavel Durov (02:20:00) This person has no prior experience of using Telegram. Their understanding would be very limited. Why would I even try to hire somebody from LinkedIn who worked at Google and other companies, is used to receiving salary for nothing, is used to shift responsibility and being stuck in endless meetings and have very limited understanding of what Telegram stands for? It’s just crazy if you think about it.

  Telegram 工程与设计

  Telegram engineering & design

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:20:40) 正因为如此，你在招聘上极其挑剔且缓慢。人们必须真正赢得他们的位置，因此，我有机会参加了一次团队会议，人们讨论正在开发的不同功能、不同的想法，其中一些处于最前沿，所以你可以幕后看到，如何能够有如此快的创意生成速度。你产生想法，实现原型，然后最终它成为产品中的一个实际功能。这就是为什么你有这种半有趣、半不可思议的事实，与WhatsApp和Signal相比，你在许多其他功能上领先。许多我们现在认为理所当然的功能，许多我们熟知和喜爱的功能，比如自动删除计时器。这比其他任何通讯应用早了七年。消息编辑、回复。这些都是显而易见的东西，我甚至忘了其中一些它们以前从未有过。我认为自动删除计时器是一个真正绝妙的想法。

  Lex Fridman (02:20:40) Because of that, you’re extremely selective and slow in hiring. People really have to earn their spot and then as a result, I got a chance to sit in one of the team meetings where people discuss the different features that are being developed, the different ideas, some of which are at the very cutting edge and so you get to see behind the scenes how it’s possible to have such a fast rate of idea generation. You generate the idea, you implement the prototype and then eventually it becomes an actual feature in the product. That’s why you have this kind of half hilarious, half incredible fact that for many, as compared to WhatsApp and Signal, you’ve led the way on many other features. Many of the features we take for granted now, many of which we know and love, like the auto-delete timer. That was seven years ahead of any other messenger. Message editing, replies. These are all obvious things I’ve even forgotten for some of them that they were never part. I think auto-delete timer is a really brilliant idea.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:21:54) 我们在2013年在秘密聊天中实现了它。有趣的是，当其他应用开始复制它时，WhatsApp在七年之后，然后是Signal和其他一些这类应用，他们最初甚至复制了完全相同的时间戳。例如，如果我们有一秒、三秒和五秒，他们也会有一秒、三秒和五秒。他们试图不改变它，因为他们不确定这个功能背后的魔力是什么。具有讽刺意味的是，许多这样的事情都会发生。例如，当我们设计如何回复一条消息，你有一个小片段显示你正在回复这条消息，现在你正在输入你的回复，然后在消息本身中有一个小片段，如果你点击它，会高亮显示你正在回复的原始消息。看起来很明显，但当时我们实施了一些特定的设计决策，我们得到了左边的垂直线和所有其他这些小东西，这些都是完全随意的，你可以用不同的方式做，但 somehow 整个行业最终都复制了完全相同的解决方案。现在无论你去看WhatsApp、Instagram Direct、Facebook Messenger、Signal，不管哪个，你都会看到完全相同或非常相似的体验，因为没有人真的想冒风险去创新。如果某个东西有效，为什么不直接复制呢？

  Pavel Durov (02:21:54) We implemented in 2013 in the Secret Chats. Funny thing about it is then when other apps started to copy it, WhatsApp seven years after and then Signal and some other of these apps, they initially even copied the exact timestamps. For example, if we had one, three and five seconds, they would also have one, three and five seconds. They tried not to change it because they were not sure what was the magic sauce behind the feature. Ironically, it happens with many of these things. For example, when we design how you reply to a message and you have a small snippet showing that you’re replying to this message and now you’re typing your response, then there is a small snippet into the message itself that if you tap on it highlights the original message you’re replying to. Seems pretty obvious, but there are certain design decisions that we were implementing at the time and we got this vertical line on the left and all these other small things that are completely arbitrary, you can do it in a different way, but somehow the entire industry ended up copying exactly that solution. Now whenever you go to WhatsApp, Instagram direct, Facebook Messenger, Signal, it doesn’t matter, you would see exactly the same or pretty much similar experience because nobody really wants to take the risk and innovate. If something works, why not just copy it?

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:23:32) 我们应该说它做得非常好。垂直线和高亮显示，我意思是所有这些都像是微小的天才之笔。以某种方式高亮文本，从设计角度使其非常清晰，这部分是之前写的，下面的东西是你的回复。不同格式、文本之间的区别。听着，我知道排版是一门艺术形式。Telegram内部有很多互动的、图形的艺术元素，都必须极其协调地配合在一起。就像你向我指出的那个让我大吃一惊的东西，也就是Telegram的背景渐变，它会变化。它真的很好地适应了气泡，聊天气泡，然后渐变之上有图形元素，所有这些都相互作用在一起。所有这些都必须很好地工作，同时不牺牲清晰度。一切都非常直观。这很难创造。那是艺术。除此之外，还超级快。

  Lex Fridman (02:23:32) We should say that it’s done extremely well. The vertical line and the highlighting, I mean all of these are tiny little strokes of genius. By highlighting the text in a certain way that from a design perspective makes it very clear that this part was written before and thing under it is your reply. The distinction between the different formatting, the text. Listen, I know how much typography is an art form. There’s a lot of interacting, graphic artistic elements inside Telegram that all have to play together extremely well. Like you pointed out to me, this thing that just blew my mind, which is the background gradient of Telegram, shifts. It changes and it adjusts really nicely to the bubbles, the chat bubbles and then there’s graphic elements on top of the gradient that all interplay together. All of that has to work really nicely without sacrificing clarity. Everything’s just intuitive. That’s very difficult to create. That is art. On top of that, super fast.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:24:40) 那是最难的部分。让它看起来让设计师喜欢是一回事。真正的挑战是让它看起来让设计师喜欢，同时让它能在尽可能弱的设备上运行。你能想象到的最老、最便宜的智能手机。如果你拿每个Telegram聊天背景上的动态渐变来说，这是大多数人没有注意到的东西，但他们能感觉到。

  Pavel Durov (02:24:40) That’s the hardest part. To make it look so that designers love it is one thing. The real challenge is make it look the way the designers love it and make it work on the weakest device as possible. Oldest, cheapest, smartphones you can imagine. If you take the moving gradient on the background of every Telegram chat, this is something most people don’t notice, but they can feel it.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:25:13) 他们潜意识里注意到它或类似的东西。有一种愉悦的感觉。当你阅读聊天时有一种愉悦的感觉，这就是设计对此的贡献。我认为渐变确实如此。我真的很喜欢Telegram的这一点，渐变。不是你描述的技术细节，而是它的感觉，然后创造那种感觉的技术方面是不可思议的。我可能能想出各种渲染那个渐变的算法，但那些算法会超级低效，所以高效地做到那一点就像…

  Lex Fridman (02:25:13) They notice it subconsciously or something like that. There is a pleasant feeling. There’s a feeling, there’s a pleasant feeling when you’re reading a chat and that’s where the design contributes to that. I think a gradient really does. I really love that about Telegram, the gradient. Not the technical thing you described, but the feeling of it and then the technical aspect of creating that feeling is incredible. I could probably come up with all kinds of algorithms of rendering that gradient that’s going to be super inefficient and so doing that efficiently is like…

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:25:46) 或者高效，但不够漂亮，因为即使是做像渐变这样简单的事情，也可能导致渐变中出现明显的线条，让人立刻就能说，哦不，这不是对的。你必须在其中引入一定的随机性，然后你有了渐变，但这还不够。它太普通了。你想有一个特定的图案作为覆盖层，但它必须足够简单，不会让你从内容上分心，但又必须足够有趣，以创造对整个应用的良好感觉。另一个问题，你想在这种图案中包含什么样的对象，以及这种图案将如何工作？它会基于像素吗？还是会基于矢量？它会基于矢量以便无限缩放和高质量吗？我认为对于默认图案和默认背景，它基于四种颜色，不是基于两种颜色的渐变，是四种颜色，它们不断变化。我可能查看了几千种它的变体，因为这是一个非常重要的决定。这是默认背景。当然你实际上可以改变它。你可以为你自己的那个设置四种颜色。你可以改变它。

  Pavel Durov (02:25:46) Or efficient, but not too beautiful because even doing something so trivial as a gradient can result in noticeable lines in the gradient that a person can instantly say, oh no, it’s not the right thing. You can have to introduce certain randomness there and then you have the gradient, but it’s not enough. It’s too plain. You want to have certain pattern as an overlay, but it should be simple enough not to distract you from the content, but it has to be entertaining enough to create a good feeling about the whole app. Another question, what kind of objects you want to include in this pattern and how this pattern would work? Will it be based on pixels or would it be vector-based and would it be vector-based so they will be infinitely scalable and high quality? I think for the default pattern and the default background, which is based on four colors, it’s not a gradient based on two colors, it’s four colors and they’re constantly shifting. I probably look through several thousand variations of that because this is such an important decision to make. It’s the default background. Of course you can change it actually. You can set up your own four colors for that. You can change it.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:27:09) 不会吧。真的吗？

  Lex Fridman (02:27:09) No way. Really?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:27:10) 是的，你可以做到，而且你想依赖于人类思维某些根深蒂固的生物学特性。你想使用哪种颜色？会是蓝色吗？会是黄色吗？会是绿色吗？每种颜色在我们大脑中有不同的含义，你想在那里放什么样的对象？来自我们童年的东西？来自自然的东西，还是能创造不同情绪的东西？这只是应用的一个细节。还有很多细节。当你发送一条消息时，你刚打完一条消息，然后你点击发送，然后消息逐渐出现在聊天中。这是怎么发生的？你希望输入字段慢慢变形为实际的消息。

  Pavel Durov (02:27:10) Yes, you can do it and you want to rely on certain deeply hard-coded biological properties of the human mind. Which color do you want to use? Is it going to be blue? Is it going to be yellow? Is it going to be green? Each color has a different meaning in our brain and what kind of objects you want to put there? Something from our childhood? Something from nature or something that can create a different kind of mood? This is just one detail of the app. There are many details. When you send a message, you are done typing a message and you just then tap send and then the message gradually appears in the chat. How does it happen? You want the input field to slowly morph into the actual message.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:28:03) 变成消息。是的。

  Lex Fridman (02:28:03) To the message. Yeah.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:28:04) 你希望这能完成，无论消息内容如何，因为有时宽度会不同。有时它会包含媒体或链接预览或其他会改变消息气泡的东西。你检查无数不同的场景，确保每一个都能很好地工作，即使这条消息包含4000个字符。然后你查看所有平台，iOS、安卓和所有旧设备，所有种类的过时操作系统和硬件，然后你交叉检查这两者，因为你可能拥有这台非常糟糕的旧手机，但使用最新的操作系统版本，那么你怎么办？你在那里会遇到什么样的错误？然后当然，由于Telegram也可以在平板电脑上运行，我们的iOS版本可以在iPad上运行，我非常喜欢iPad，你必须理解一切都可以非常大。它可能消耗你屏幕上很多空间，然后它会触发使用更多的计算资源来渲染它。这里面有很多细微差别，但只要你痴迷于每一个小细节，至少每一个真正重要的细节，你就能达到一种用户体验……如果你真的习惯了Telegram，如果你至少是几周的常规用户，回到任何其他消息应用都会感觉像是严重的降级。

  Pavel Durov (02:28:04) You want this to be done regardless of the contents of the message because sometimes the width would be different. Sometimes it’ll be containing media or link preview or other stuff that will change the message bubble. You go through countless different scenarios and make sure every one of them works great, even if this message contains 4,000 characters. Then you look at all the platforms, iOS, Android and all the old devices, all kinds of outdated operating systems and the hardware and you cross the two because you can have this really bad old phone, but using the newest operating system version, so what do you do? What kind of bugs you get there? Then of course, since Telegram works on tablets as well and our iOS version works on an iPad, which I love a lot, you have to understand that everything can be really big. It can consume a lot of space on your screen and then it’ll trigger using more computational resources to render it. There are a lot of nuances to it, but as long as you obsess over every small detail, at least every detail that really counts, you can get to a user experience… If you’re really used to Telegram, if you’ve been a regular user for at least a few weeks, going back to any other messaging app feels like a serious downgrade.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:29:53) 是的，我的意思是，有那么多真正神奇的时刻。例如，消息删除时蒸发的方式，那是一种非常愉悦的体验。

  Lex Fridman (02:29:53) Yeah, I mean there’s so many really magical moments. For example, the way a message evaporates when you delete it, that is a really pleasant experience.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:30:05) 哦是的。做出来可真难啊，尤其是在安卓上。就是这个灭霸响指效果，对吧？消息被分解成数万颗粒子，它们像风中的尘埃一样散去。看起来很棒，但做起来太难了。

  Pavel Durov (02:30:05) Oh yeah. Boy was it hard to make, particularly on Android. This is this Thanos snap effect, right? The message is broken into tens of thousands particles, which go away like dust in the wind. It looks great, but it was so hard to make.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:30:28) 可能是我最喜欢的GUI图形事物之一。它就是艺术。纯粹的艺术。太不可思议了。很高兴听到它确实是经过反复推敲和深思熟虑的。做得非常出色。

  Lex Fridman (02:30:28) Probably one of my favorite GUI graphical things. It’s just art. It’s pure art. It’s incredible. It’s good to hear that it has been really fought over and thought through. It’s extremely well done.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:30:45) 不，如果你不深入其中，你就无法实现它。然后你不想用所有这些额外的动画分散人们与他们沟通的注意力。你希望它们在某种程度上是隐形的。

  Pavel Durov (02:30:45) No, you can’t pull it off if you’re not going deep in this. Then you don’t want to distract people from their communication with all this additional animation. You want them to be invisible in a way.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:31:06) 它们创造感觉，但不制造分心。

  Lex Fridman (02:31:06) They create the feeling, but they don’t create distraction.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:31:09) 是的。为了做到这一点，你必须克服甚至更多的挑战。例如，你提到了这个删除效果，消息蒸发。如果你先做动画，先显示动画，然后被删除消息之前的和之后的消息彼此靠近移动，那么感觉就不对。感觉太长了，太突兀了。你想做的是让消息消失，同时它周围的消息彼此靠近以填补产生的空隙。然后你想象这涉及到什么。重绘整个屏幕。在这个非常复杂的动画之上，你必须考虑诸如它之前和之后有哪些消息之类的事情。这只会增加复杂性。

  Pavel Durov (02:31:09) Yes. In order to do that, you have to overcome even more challenges. For example, you mentioned this deletion effect, message evaporates. If you do the animation, if you show the animation first and then the message that is preceding the deleted message that is going after the just deleted message move closer to each other, then it doesn’t feel right. It feels too long, too imposing. What you want to do is you want the message disappear while the messages around it go closer to each other to fill the resulting gap. Then you imagine what it involves. Redrawing the entire screen. On top of this very complicated animation, you have to think about things like which kind of messages were there before it after. It just adds to complexity.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:32:14) 再次是在所有种类的设备上，所有种类的操作系统，所有种类的平板电脑、手机、桌面，所有种类的屏幕尺寸上。

  Lex Fridman (02:32:14) Once again on all kinds of devices, all kinds of operating systems, all kinds of tablets, phones, desktop, all of that.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:32:21) 一旦你完成了它，它会给你这种巨大的自豪感，因为没有人这样做。没有人真正在乎。在某种程度上，也许他们不在乎是对的。也许没有人注意到这一点，但当这样的事情被忽视时，总会让人觉得有些不对劲，因为我明白，每天，全世界有数千万人在删除消息。他们得到的是什么样的体验？这是一种也许甚至能在潜意识里激励他们、让他们的心歌唱哪怕一点点的体验吗？让他们充满喜悦吗？让他们的心情明亮起来，哪怕只有0.001%？这是不是只是最基本的东西，而我认为，如果我们能给人们的生活带来一些价值，即使是通过这些细微的细节，我们也绝对必须把时间投入其中。

  Pavel Durov (02:32:21) Once you accomplish it, it gives you this immense sense of pride because nobody is doing this. Nobody really cares. In a way maybe they’re right not to care. Maybe nobody notices this, but there is something about it that feels wrong when such things are neglected because I understand that every day, tens of millions of people around the world are deleting messages. What kind of experience they get? Is this an experience that maybe even subconsciously inspires them and makes their hearts sing even a little bit? Fills them with joy? Lightens up their mood, even a little bit by 0.001%? Is it something that is just basic and I think if we can bring some value in people’s lives, even through this subtle details, we have to definitely invest our time in it.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:33:32) 一些喜悦。不单单是像生产力那样的价值，而是喜悦。我认为史蒂夫·乔布斯、乔尼·艾夫谈到过这一点，他们会在所有东西的设计上投入如此多的热爱和努力，包括在早期个人电脑中不可见的东西，因为他们相信，用户会通过某种潜移默化的方式，感受到设计师投入其中的热爱。你完全正确。这不关乎删除消息。当我看到那个蒸发动画时，我感觉到一丝喜悦。就是感觉很好。我因此更快乐了。我感受到了那份努力，而且我认为有十亿用户感受到了。

  Lex Fridman (02:33:32) Some joy. Not just sort of value like productivity, but joy. I think Steve Jobs, Jony Ive talked about this, they would put so much love and effort in the design of everything, including things that weren’t visible in the initial pc, personal computers because they believe that you somehow through osmosis, the users will be able to feel the love that the designers put into the thing and you’re absolutely right. It’s not about deleting messages. I feel a little inkling of joy when I see that evaporation animation. It’s just nice. I’m happier because of it. I feel that effort and I think a billion users feel that.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:34:21) 人们喜欢别人在乎的感觉。

  Pavel Durov (02:34:21) People like when other people care.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:34:23) 是的，是的，是的。 exactly 就是这样。当然，还有更吸引人的东西，比如所有的表情符号、贴纸、礼物，其中很多就像小小的艺术品。

  Lex Fridman (02:34:23) Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s exactly what it is. Of course there’s the more sexy things like all the emojis and the stickers, the gifts, many of those are just, they’re a little like art pieces.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:34:39) 这又是艺术与技术的交汇点，因为你看看贴纸，Telegram 在大多数其他应用之前很久就推出了——

  Pavel Durov (02:34:39) That’s again an intersection of art and technology because you look at the stickers, which Telegram launched way before most of this other apps-

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:34:48) 领先了三年零八个月。

  Lex Fridman (02:34:48) Three years and eight months ahead.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:34:50) …领先于 WhatsApp，是的。WhatsApp 最终在三年零八个月后推出的贴纸，其第一个版本并不太好，因为他们只是用了普通的 GIF 或 WebM 视频，这些不是基于矢量图形的。我们做的是矢量动画。这些贴纸中的每一个只有几KB大小，有时最大可能 20、30 KB，但它有 180 帧。我们能够在所有设备上以每秒60帧的速度运行它们。这也非常具有挑战性。这是一项具有挑战性的事情。我们为了让它能工作费尽了心思。在我们之前，甚至没有人尝试过做类似的事情，因为它极其困难。结果就是，你得到了这些流畅的动画。你获得了这种非常棒的用户体验。有人给你发送一个贴纸，你不需要等待它加载，因为它非常轻量，并且立即开始移动。

  Pavel Durov (02:34:50) … ahead of WhatsApp, yes. The stickers that WhatsApp ended up launching three years and eight months after were not the first version was not really good because they just did regular GIFs or WebM videos, which were not based on vector graphics. What we did is vector animations. Each of these stickers is only several kilobytes, sometimes maybe maximum 20, 30 kilobytes in size, but it says 180 frames. We were able to run them at 60 frames per second on all devices. It’s also very challenging. It was a challenging thing to do. We had so much headache trying to make it work. Nobody even tried to do anything like this before us because it’s crazily difficult. As a result, you have these fluid animations. You have this really nice user experience. Somebody sends you a sticker, you don’t have to wait for it to load because it’s so lightweight and it starts moving instantly.

  (02:35:58) 然后当然，这不仅仅是工程问题。你必须找到能够使用矢量图形创建贴纸的设计师，这意味着它们是基于由公式描述的曲线，而不仅仅是作为带有像素的照片创建的。你从哪里找到这些人？ again，我们举办了比赛，但组建一个我称之为艺术家/工程师的团队来做这样的事情并不容易。这是一种独特的艺术形式，这使我们能够在贴纸领域进行一场革命，然后在动画表情符号领域进行另一场革命，你可以将自定义动画表情符号添加到消息中。我认为没有人这样做过。我认为 Telegram 仍然是唯一允许用户这样做的，因为你可以在一条消息中包含100个动画表情符号，它们会被动画化，会动起来，而你的设备不会崩溃。这可能是不必要的和疯狂的，但我们认为，在艺术与工程的这个交汇处，真正的品质被创造出来。

  (02:35:58) Then of course, it’s not just engineering. You have to find designers that are able to create the stickers using vector graphics, which means they’re based on curves described by formulas, not just created as photographs with pixels. Where do you find these people? Again, we did competitions, but was not easy to assemble a team of artists/engineers I would say, that are able to do something like this. This is a unique form of art and this allowed us to do a revolution in stickers and then another revolution in animated emoji that you can add into messages, custom animated emoji. I don’t think anybody did that. I think Telegram is still the only one allowing users to do that because you can include 100 of animated emoji in a message and they will be animated and it’ll be moving and your device won’t crash. It’s probably unnecessary and crazy, but we think somewhere in this intersection of art and engineering, true quality is created.

  (02:37:14) 然后当然，最近我们扩展到了我们称之为 Telegram Gifts 的东西，它们本质上是基于区块链的收藏品，你可以在你的 Telegram 个人资料上展示它们，使它们具有社交相关性，但你也可以使用它们来祝贺你的朋友和亲人的生日及其他节日，这受到了极大的欢迎。

  (02:37:14) Then of course, more recently we expanded into what we call Telegram Gifts, which are essentially blockchain-based collectibles that you can demonstrate on your Telegram profile so that they get social relevance, but you can also use them to congratulate your friends and close ones with their birthdays and other holidays and that was received extremely well.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:37:41) 是的，它们可以持有价值，可以增值，你可以在那方面交易它们，但对我来说，仍然是矢量图形，而且它不是简单的图形，它是极其复杂的图形。矢量使其非常高效，但它也允许你创造，也许激励艺术家，使他们能够，激励他们，去创造超级详细复杂的元素。然后最终的结果，你会认为这无关紧要，但最终结果有很多事情在进行，它允许你在任意设备上缩放。现在它就像这个小……通常过去的 GIF，以及现在仍然以 meme 形式存在的，都是低分辨率的，所以人们通常不会在其中加入细节和复杂的艺术，但在这里，使用矢量图形，就像有百万件事情在同时进行。它允许你玩转不同的动画。就像你向我展示的那个功能，你发送并在发送按钮上按住一段时间，这样你就可以与你发送消息的人分享你编码的这个动画。当他们阅读消息时，有很多事情在发生。

  Lex Fridman (02:37:41) Yeah, they can hold value, they can increase in value, you could trade them in that aspect, but to me still, vector graphics and it’s not just simple graphics, it’s incredibly intricate graphics. The vector makes it very efficient, but it also allows you to create, maybe incentivizes the artist, enables them, incentivizes them, to create super detailed intricate elements. Then the final result, you would think it wouldn’t matter, but the final result has a lot of stuff going on and it allows you to scale on arbitrary devices. Now it’s like this little… Usually GIFs from back in the day and still in meme form, are low resolution and so usually people don’t put details and intricate art into it, but here with vector graphics it’s like a million things going on. It allows you to play with different animations. Like you showed me this thing where you send and you hold for a while on the send button and so you can share with the person you send a message to this animation that you’ve encoded. There’s a bunch of stuff going on when they read the message.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:38:59) 是的，我们有很多这样的功能，我们利用这种艺术让人们表达自己，而大多数人甚至不知道这些功能。

  Pavel Durov (02:38:59) Yes, we have a lot of features like that when we use this art to allow people to express themselves and most people don’t even know about these features.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:39:10) 我以前不知道。那很酷。那很酷。

  Lex Fridman (02:39:10) I didn’t know about it. That was cool. That was cool.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:39:12) 同一技术的另一个应用是 Telegram 上的反应，因为我们设定了一个目标，确保人们仅仅在给你发送一个赞时也能感受到喜悦。像仅仅给一条消息点赞这样微不足道的动作，也应该是一个你想要一遍又一遍地重复执行的动作。

  Pavel Durov (02:39:12) The other application of the same technology is reactions on Telegram because we made it a goal to make sure that people feel joy when they just send you a like. Something so trivial as just adding a like to a message should be an action that you want to perform again and again and again.

  加密

  Encryption

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:39:43) 另一个功能，在更严肃的方面，是端到端加密。你在这方面引领了行业。它提前一年零三个月推出。你能谈谈你为什么决定添加端到端加密，以及你最初是如何开发加密算法的吗？你背后的想法是什么？

  Lex Fridman (02:39:43) Another feature, on the more serious side, is end-to-end encryption. You led the industry in that. It was launched one year and three months ahead. Can you speak to why you decided to add end-to-end encryption and how you developed the encryption algorithm in the beginning? What was your thinking behind that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:40:03) 在2013年我们推出 Telegram 时，我们意识到了爱德华·斯诺登揭露的严重的隐私问题。我们想，是的，我们正在以一种已经极其安全的方式设计这个产品，但我们想确保甚至连我们自己都无法访问用户消息。我们非常清楚地理解，一群出生在俄罗斯的人不一定能激发信任。这就是为什么我们让 Telegram 开源，所以我们所有的应用自2013年起就在 GitHub 上可用，然后我们在”秘密聊天”中添加了端到端加密，WhatsApp 在几年后复制了这一点。他们提前一年零三个月才开始测试它。我认为他们在2016年推出了这个功能，那是在我们之后三年，我认为行业其他公司不得不这样做的唯一原因是因为我们设定了标准。

  Pavel Durov (02:40:03) At 2013 when we were launching Telegram, we were aware of the serious issue with privacy that Edward Snowden made very clear. We thought, yes, we’re designing this product in a way that is already extremely secure, but we want to make sure that not even we can access user messages. We understood very clearly that a bunch of people who were born in Russia don’t necessarily inspire trust. That’s why we made Telegram open source, so all our apps have been available on GitHub since 2013 and then we added end-to-end encryption in our Secret Chats, which WhatsApp copied a few years after. One year and three months ahead they just started to test it. They rolled this out I think 2016, which is three years after us and the only reason I think the rest of the industry had to do it is because we set the standard.

  (02:41:23) 这在当时极其重要，同时我们也意识到了端到端加密的某些局限性。在这种设计、这种架构内，你无法支持具有一致持久聊天记录的非常大的聊天社区。你无法支持庞大的一对多频道。你在维护接收大量消息的机器人时会遇到问题。多设备支持变得棘手。人们最终会丢失他们分享的一些文件。我们也看到了很多问题，最终我们有了这种混合体验，根据你的使用场景和需求，你可以选择你想要拥有的加密级别。

  (02:41:23) It was incredibly important back in the day and at the same time we realized certain limitations of end-to-end encryption. Within that design, that architecture, you can’t support very large chat communities with consistent persistent chat histories. You can’t support huge one-to-many channels. You’d have issues with maintaining bots that have lots of incoming messages. Multiple device support becomes tricky. People will end up losing some of the documents they share. We also saw a lot of issues and we ended up having this sort of hybrid experience where depending on your use case and your requirements, you can choose the level of encryption that we want to have.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:42:27) 这就是为什么你选择让端到端加密成为可选功能。你所描述的那个权衡是在于，对于那些真正关心特定消息、对这些消息有极端隐私需求的人，和可用性之间，比如能够跨多个设备同步，拥有20万人的群组。所有这些功能，生活质量类的功能，在它们和端到端加密之间存在权衡。你倾向于让用户在需要超级安全的情况下启用端到端加密。

  Lex Fridman (02:42:27) That’s why you chose to go opt-in for end-to-end encryption. The trade off there that you are describing is between for people who really care about specific messages, extreme privacy on those messages and usability, like being able to sync across multiple devices, having groups that are 200,000 people. All of those features, quality of life features, there’s a trade-off between those and end-to-end encryption. You lean towards letting users enable end-to-end encryption for cases when they want to be super secure.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:43:04) 是的。秘密聊天不仅仅是端到端加密。它们有一些限制，这些限制既是特性也是缺陷。例如，你不能对它们进行截图。你不能从它们那里转发任何文件、任何消息，当你在试图完成一些工作，只是在项目上与你的团队沟通时，这不一定是您需要的。我们非常清楚地认识到，这里有不同的需求，如果你试图将两者结合在一种聊天类型中，你最终会失去很多实用性。我们在 Telegram，我们不使用任何协作工具进行团队合作。我们使用 Telegram 来构建 Telegram。当我们试图切换到秘密聊天，分享大文件并试图完成工作时，我们立刻感觉到，它根本不适合这样做。同时，如果你真的多疑，你认为，我不想被截图，我不想有任何泄露，我甚至不信任 Telegram，我只信任代码。那么秘密聊天是最好的选择。我相信这是当今最安全的通信方式。

  Pavel Durov (02:43:04) Yes. Secret Chats are not just end-to-end encrypted. There are certain limitations that are both a feature and a bug. For example, you can’t screenshot them. You can’t forward any document, any message from them, which is not necessarily something you need when you are trying to get some work done and you are just communicating with your team on a project. It became very clear to us that there are different needs here and if you try to combine both in one type of chat, you will end up losing a lot of utility. We at Telegram, we don’t use any collaboration tool for teamwork. We use Telegram to build Telegram. We felt instantly when we were trying to switch to say Secret Chats, to share large documents and tried to get work done, it was just not adapted for it. At the same time, if you were really paranoid, you think, I don’t want to be screenshotted, I don’t want to have any leaks, I don’t even trust Telegram, I only trust code. Secret Chats are the best option. I believe is the most secure means of communication today.

  开源

  Open source

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:44:36) 我们应该说明，这方面还有很多其他重要的方面。例如，Telegram 是唯一一个为 Android 和 iOS 都提供开源可重现构建的应用。为什么这很重要？

  Lex Fridman (02:44:36) We should say that there’s a lot of other aspects to this that are important. For example, Telegram is the only app that has open source reproducible builds for both Android and iOS. Why is this important?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:44:49) 你需要可重现的构建来验证应用确实做了它声称的事情，确实以其网站上描述的方式加密数据。为此，你需要让你的应用开源，以便任何研究人员都可以查看它。Telegram 自2013年起就是开源的。像 WhatsApp 这样的应用从未开源，所以你并不真正知道它们在做什么，以及它们究竟是如何加密你的消息的。但这里重要的是要理解，你从应用商店下载的应用版本是否与你在 GitHub 上可以查看的源代码完全对应。为此你需要可重现的构建。

  Pavel Durov (02:44:49) You need reproducible builds in order to verify that the app really does what it claims, really encrypts data in a way that it is described on its website. For that you need to make your apps open source for any researchers to have a look at it. Telegram has been open source since 2013. Apps like WhatsApp have never been open source, so you don’t really know what they’re doing and how exactly they encrypt your messages. What’s important here though is to understand whether the version of the app that you download from the app store corresponds exactly to the source code that you can view on GitHub. For that you need reproducible builds.

  (02:45:48) 正如你所说，Telegram 是唯一这样做的流行消息应用。我们允许人们在 Android 和 iOS 上确保 GitHub 上的 Telegram 源代码和你实际使用的应用是同一个应用。我认为这极其重要，不仅仅是为了赢得人们的信任，也是为了在这方面保持透明和开放。当我声称 Telegram 的秘密聊天是最安全的通信方式时，我是认真的，因为我还没有看到任何事实反驳这一说法，至少在流行消息应用中。你说 WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage。它们都没有在 iOS 和 Android 上同时具备可重现的构建。它们中至少没有一家在确保你用于加密数据的算法不是由某个机构交给你的、用于创建蜜罐的算法方面投入同样多的努力，至少据我对竞争对手的了解是这样。我不认为他们经历了同样的过程。

  (02:45:48) As you said, Telegram is the only popular messaging app that does that. We allow people to make sure both on Android and the iOS that the source code of Telegram on GitHub and the app you are actually using is the same app. I think it’s incredibly important, not just to gain people’s trust, but just to stay transparent and open about it. When I make this claim that Telegram’s Secret Chats are the most secure way of communicating, I really mean it because I haven’t seen any fact contradicting this claim, at least among the popular messaging app. You say WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage. None of them have reproducible builds on both iOS and Android. None of them had at least at the same level put so much effort into making sure that the algorithms that you use in order to encrypt data are not algorithms that have been handed to you by some agency in order to create a honey pot, at least from what I know about our competitors. I don’t think they went through the same process.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:47:23) 我们应该说明，Telegram 中整个软件栈都是在 Telegram 内部从头开始完成的。我们谈论的不仅仅是加密，还有服务器上运行的一切。服务器是构建出来的，硬件和软件都是在内部完成的，这是你减少处理消息的整个栈受攻击面的方法之一。

  Lex Fridman (02:47:23) We should say that the entirety of the software stack in Telegram is done from scratch internally to Telegram. We’re talking about not just the encryption, but everything running on the servers. The servers are built out, the hardware and the software are all done internally, which is one of the ways you reduce the attack surface on the entire stack that handles the messages.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:47:45) 这确实使它更安全，因为如果斯诺登的揭露教会了我们什么，那就是经常被每个人使用的开源工具、模块、库，最终都存在某些缺陷和安全问题，使软件变得脆弱。这也是确保你以尽可能高效的方式做事的一种方法，但这样做极其困难。你真的必须拥有团队中 exceptional 的人才才能达到这种彻底的程度，深入到低层次的编码，让你能够从头开始重新创建数据库引擎、网络服务器、整个编程语言，因为我们在后端用来开发客户端应用 API 的编程语言也是完全由我们团队构建的。

  Pavel Durov (02:47:45) It does make it more secure because if Snowden’s revelations taught us anything is that very often open source tools, modules, libraries, that they used by everybody, ended up having certain flaws and security issues that make software vulnerable. It’s also a way to make sure you are doing things the most efficient way possible, but it’s extremely difficult to do that. You really have to have exceptional talent in your team to achieve this level of thoroughness, to go to a low level of coding that allows you to recreate from scratch database engines, web servers, entire programming languages because the programming language we use on the back end to develop the API for the client apps is also entirely built by our team.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:49:01) 移除、最小化对开源库的依赖是极其困难的，因为大多数公司都依赖开源库。

  Lex Fridman (02:49:01) Removing, minimizing the reliance on open source libraries is extremely difficult as most companies, they rely on open source libraries.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:49:09) 嗯，我不会说我们完全独立于此。我们在后端使用 Linux。目前我们无法避免这一点，但在很大程度上，我们比大多数其他应用更加自力更生。

  Pavel Durov (02:49:09) Well, I wouldn’t say we are completely independent from that. We use Linux on the back end. There’s no way of avoiding it for us at the moment, but for the most part we are much more self-reliant than most other apps.

  Read All

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• Telegram创始人帕维尔·杜罗夫2025年10月播客实录 | 中英文完整版精译 Part2

  2025-10-22

  LZN

  thinking

  thinking

  书童按：本篇是帕维尔·杜罗夫（Pavel Durov）于2025年10月接受Lex Fridman的播客采访实录，Pavel是端到端加密通信软件Telegram的创始人兼CEO。其采访中涉及精简团队、高度自动化、法国被捕、审查、企业家的困境等话题，精彩绝伦，令人击节称赞。初稿采用AI机器翻译，经自动化中英混排，书童仅做简单校对及批注。原稿中英文混排近7万字，书童将分为Part1-4发出，本篇是第二部分，以飨诸君。

  

  Telegram: 精简哲学、隐私与地缘政治

  Telegram: Lean philosophy, privacy, and geopolitics

  Lex Fridman (00:41:26) 好的。我们休息了一下，现在回来了。我得问问你关于 Telegram 这家公司的事情。我有幸见到了一些在那里工作的杰出工程师。与其他达到 Telegram 这样规模的科技公司相比，Telegram 的运行很精简。它的员工非常少。那么，核心团队有多少人？比如说核心工程团队。

  Lex Fridman (00:41:26) All right. We took a break and now we’re back. I got to ask you about Telegram, the company. I got to meet some of the brilliant engineers that worked there. Telegram runs lean relative to other technology companies that achieve the scale that Telegram does. It has very few employees. So, how many people are on the core team? Let’s say the core engineering team.

  Pavel Durov (00:41:48) 核心工程团队大约有 40 人。这包括后端、前端、设计师、系统管理员。

  Pavel Durov (00:41:48) The core engineering team is about 40 people. This includes back-end, front-end, designers, system administrators.

  Lex Fridman (00:42:02) 你能谈谈用如此少的员工运营一家公司背后的哲学吗？

  Lex Fridman (00:42:02) Can you speak to the philosophy behind running a company with so few employees?

  Pavel Durov (00:42:10) 嗯，我们很早就意识到，员工的数量并不等同于他们生产的产品质量。在很多情况下，情况恰恰相反。如果人太多，他们必须协调彼此的工作，不断沟通，他们 90% 的时间将花在相互协调他们负责的那一小部分工作上。员工太多的另一个问题是，有些人会没有足够的工作可做，而如果他们没活干，他们仅仅存在就会让其他所有人失去动力。他们还在那里，仍然领着薪水，但他们什么都不做。

  Pavel Durov (00:42:10) Well, what we realized really early is that quantity of employees doesn’t translate the quality of the product they produce. In many cases, it’s the opposite. If you have too many people, they have to coordinate their efforts, constantly communicate, and 90% of their time will be spent on coordinating the small pieces of work they’re responsible for between each other. The other problem with having too many employees is that some of them won’t get enough work to do, and if they don’t get enough work to do, they demotivate everybody else by their mere existence. They’re still there, they’re still getting the salary, but they don’t do anything.

  (00:43:01) 如果他们什么都不做，他们多半会开始尝试在其他地方寻找自己的存在价值，也许是在你的团队内部，但不是通过做有成效的工作，而是通过寻找团队中并不存在的问题。这会进一步破坏团队和团队内的氛围。此外，当你故意不允许某些团队成员雇佣更多人来帮助他们时，他们将被迫实现自动化。在我们的案例中，我们在全球有数万台服务器，接近 10 万台，分布在几个大洲和数据中心。

  (00:43:01) If they don’t do anything, more often than not, they will start trying to find their purpose elsewhere, maybe inside your team, but not by doing productive work, but by finding problems that don’t exist within the team. That can disrupt the team and the mood inside it even further. Also, when you intentionally don’t allow some of your team members to hire more people to help them, they’ll be forced to automate things. In our case, we have tens of thousands of servers around the world, almost 100,000 distributed across several continents and data centers.

  (00:44:02) 如果你试图在没有自动化的情况下手动管理这个系统，你最终可能需要雇佣数千人，甚至数万人。但如果你依赖算法，并且团队被迫整合算法来管理它，那么它就变得更具可扩展性，更高效，而且有趣的是，也可靠得多。

  (00:44:02) If you try to manage this system manually without automation, you will probably end up hiring thousands of people, tens of thousands of people. But if you rely on algorithms and the team is forced to put together algorithms in order to manage it, then it becomes much more scalable, much more efficient, and interestingly, much more reliable as well.

  Lex Fridman (00:44:31) 并且对不断变化的地缘政治、不断变化的技术等等更具韧性。因为如果你将数据存储和所有计算的分布式方面自动化，那么它就能抵御世界向你抛来的一切。我想如果你让人来管理所有这一切，它很快就会变得僵化。

  Lex Fridman (00:44:31) And more resilient to the changing geopolitics, to the changing technology, all of that. Because if you automate the distributed aspect of the data storage and all the compute, then that’s going to be resilient to everything the world throws at you. I suppose if you have people managing all of it, it becomes stale quickly.

  Pavel Durov (00:44:54) 是的，人类是攻击载体，如果你有一个自动运行的分布式系统，你就有机会提高服务的速度安全性和速度，这就是我们在 Telegram 所做的，同时也使其更加可靠。因为如果网络的某部分出现故障，你仍然可以切换到其他部分。

  Pavel Durov (00:44:54) Yes, humans are attack vectors, and if you have a distributed system that runs itself automatically, you have a chance at increasing the security of speed and speed of your service, this is what we did with Telegram, while also making it much more reliable. Because if some part of the network goes down, you can still switch to the other parts of it.

  Lex Fridman (00:45:25) 是的。你保护用户隐私的一个重要方式是你存储数据的方式。Telegram 的基础设施端分布在许多法律管辖区，并且解密密钥也是分散的。所以，数据在云端是加密的。解密密钥被分割并保存在不同的位置，这样没有任何单一政府或实体能够访问数据。你能解释一下这种方法的好处吗？

  Lex Fridman (00:45:25) Yeah. One of the big ways you protect user privacy is that you store the data. The infrastructure side of Telegram is distributed across many legal jurisdictions with the decryption keys. So, it’s encrypted in cloud. The decryption keys are split and kept in different locations so that no single government or entity can access the data. Can you explain the strength of this approach?

  Pavel Durov (00:45:55) 我们设计 Telegram 的方式是，我们从不希望任何人类、任何员工能够访问私人消息数据。这就是为什么自 2012 年以来，当我们试图构思这个设计时，我们总是投入大量精力来确保没有人能够破坏它。即使你雇佣了一个员工，或者现有的任何员工，都无法以允许他们访问用户消息的方式破坏系统。然后当然我们推出了端到端加密消息，这种消息受到更多保护，但它有一定的局限性。所以，你仍然必须依赖加密的云端。因此，一个有趣的工程挑战是如何确保在你的团队内部或外部不会产生任何单点故障。

  Pavel Durov (00:45:55) The way we designed Telegram is we never wanted to have any humans, any employees have any access to private messaging data. That’s why since 2012 when we’ve been trying to come up with this design, we always invested a lot of effort into making sure that nobody can mess with it. If you hire an employee or any of the existing employee, it can’t break the system in a way that would allow them to access messages of users. Then of course we launched end-to-end encrypted messaging that is even more protected, but it has certain limitations. So, you still have to rely on an encrypted cloud. So, an interesting engineering challenge was how you make sure that no point of failure can be created within your team or outside.

  Lex Fridman (00:46:58) 所以没有任何员工能够访问用户消息。就是这样。我们谈论加密，谈论隐私，谈论安全，所有这些事情。我认为人们最关心的事情，同时也是存在很多错误信息的，就是关于私人消息。所以，Telegram 对用户的私人消息保护得非常非常严密。你说员工永远无法访问私人消息。过去是否有任何政府或情报机构曾访问过用户的私人消息？

  Lex Fridman (00:46:58) So no employee can even access user messages. So, that’s the thing. We talk about encryption, we talk about privacy, we talk about security, all these kinds of things. I think the number one thing that people are concerned about, about which there’s also misinformation, is about private messages. So, Telegram is very, very protective of the private messages of users. So, you’re saying employees never can access the private messages. Have any governments or intelligence agencies ever accessed private user messages in the past?

  Pavel Durov (00:47:38) 没有，从来没有。Telegram 从未与任何人，包括政府和情报机构，分享过任何一条私人消息。如果你试图访问任何数据中心位置的任何服务器，所有数据都是加密的。你可以取出所有硬盘并进行分析，但你什么也得不到。所有数据都以无法破译的方式加密。这对我们来说非常重要。这就是为什么我们可以自信地说，从未发生过数据泄露，任何来自 Telegram 的数据泄露。无论是私人消息，还是联系人列表。

  Pavel Durov (00:47:38) No, never. Telegram has never shared a single private message with anyone, including governments and intelligence services. If you try to access any server in any of the data center locations, it’s all encrypted. You can extract all the hard drives and analyze it, but you won’t get anything. It’s all encrypted in the way that is undecipherable. That was very important for us. That’s why we can say with confidence, there hasn’t been ever a leakage of data, any leak of data from Telegram. Not in terms of private messages, not in terms of say contact lists.

  Lex Fridman (00:48:28) 你是否预见到未来可能出现某种情况，你可能会与政府或情报机构分享用户的私人消息？

  Lex Fridman (00:48:28) Do you see in the future a possible scenario where you might share user private messages with governments or with intelligence agencies?

  Pavel Durov (00:48:39) 不会。我们设计的系统使得这不可能实现。这需要我们改变系统，而我们不会那样做，因为我们对用户做出了承诺。我们宁愿在某个国家关闭 Telegram，也不会那样做。

  Pavel Durov (00:48:39) No. We designed a system in a way that’s impossible. It’ll require us to change the system and we won’t do that because we made a promise to our users. We would rather shut Telegram down in a certain country than do that.

  Lex Fridman (00:48:56) 所以这是你运营所遵循的原则之一，即保护用户隐私。

  Lex Fridman (00:48:56) So that’s one of the principles you operate under is you go into protect user privacy.

  Pavel Durov (00:49:03) 我认为这是根本。没有隐私权，人们就无法感到完全自由和受保护。

  Pavel Durov (00:49:03) I think it’s fundamental. Without the right to privacy, people can’t feel fully free and protected.

  Lex Fridman (00:49:11) 我的意思是，这是个好地方来问这个问题。我相信你受到各种各样的人、各种各样的组织的压力，要求分享私人数据。你从哪里获得力量和无所畏惧的精神，对所有人说不，包括强大的情报机构，包括强大的政府，有影响力的、有权势的人？

  Lex Fridman (00:49:11) I mean, this is a good place to ask. I’m sure you’re pressured by all kinds of people, all kinds of organizations to share private data. Where do you find the strength and the fearlessness to say no to everybody, including powerful intelligence agencies, including powerful governments, influential, powerful people?

  Pavel Durov (00:49:33) 我想部分原因只是我就是我。我从小就开始捍卫自己和自己的价值观。我总是和我的老师们有矛盾，因为我会在课堂上指出他们的错误。归根结底，重要的是提醒自己，你没有什么可失去的。他们可能认为可以用某些东西勒索你，可以用某些东西威胁你，但他们到底能对你做什么呢？最坏的情况，他们可以杀了你，但这又把我们带回到讨论的第一部分。活在恐惧中是毫无意义的。

  Pavel Durov (00:49:33) I guess part of it is just me being me. I stood up for myself and for my values since I was a little kid. I always had issues with my teachers because I would point out their mistakes during classes. At the end of the day, what’s important is to remind yourself that you have nothing to lose. They can think they blackmail you with something, they can threaten you with something, but what is it they really can really do to you? Worst case, they can kill you, but that brings us back to the first part of our discussion. There’s no point living your life in fear.

  (00:50:21) 至于 Telegram，它非常成功，但如果我们失去一个市场或两个市场，或者几乎所有的市场，我并不那么在意。这不会影响我，不会以任何方式影响我的生活方式。我仍然会做我的俯卧撑。所以，如果你不喜欢加密，不喜欢隐私，认为你应该在你的国家禁止加密，就像欧盟现在试图为其所有成员国做的那样，好吧，尽管去做。我们只会退出这个市场。我们不会在那里运营。这没那么重要。他们都以为我们 somehow 从他们的公民那里获利，科技公司唯一的目标就是榨取收入。没错，大多数科技公司都是这样的，但也有像 Telegram 这样有点不同的项目，我不确定他们是否意识到这一点。

  (00:50:21) As for Telegram, it’s incredibly successful, but if we lose one market or two markets or pretty much all of the markets, I don’t care that much. It won’t affect me, it won’t affect my lifestyle in any way. I’ll still be doing my pushups. So, you don’t like encryption, you don’t like privacy, you think you should ban encryption in your country, like the European Union is trying to do now for all the member states, well, go ahead and do that. We’ll just quit this market. We won’t operate there. It’s not that important. They all think that somehow we profit from their citizens, and the only goal tech companies have is extracting revenues. It’s true, most tech companies are like this, but there are projects like Telegram which are a bit different and I’m not sure they realize that.

  Lex Fridman (00:51:23) 所以对你来说，在原则方面保持你的正直，其价值比任何其他事情都重要。当然，我们应该说，你也完全有能力并且有控制权来做到这一点，因为你，Pavel Durov，拥有 Telegram 100% 的股份。所以，在这个问题上没有其他人有发言权。

  Lex Fridman (00:51:23) So for you, the value of maintaining your integrity in relation to your principles is more important than anything else. Of course, we should say that you also have full ability and control to do just that because you, Pavel Durov, own 100% of Telegram. So, there’s no anybody with a say on this question.

  Pavel Durov (00:51:47) 没有股东，这是相当独特的。

  Pavel Durov (00:51:47) There are no shareholders, which is quite unique.

  Lex Fridman (00:51:52) 非常独特。我认为在任何大型科技公司中，甚至没有接近这种情况的。

  Lex Fridman (00:51:52) Very unique. I don’t think there’s anything even close to that in any major tech company.

  Pavel Durov (00:51:56) 这使我们能够以我们自己的方式运营，基于某些基本原则来构建和维护这个项目，顺便说一句，我认为每个人都相信这些原则。我认为隐私权被包括在大多数国家的宪法中，至少大多数西方国家，但它几乎每周都受到攻击。它通常始于善意的提议。哦，我们必须打击犯罪，我们必须这样做，我们必须保护儿童。但归根结底，结果是一样的。人们失去了像隐私这样基本的东西的权利。他们有时会失去表达自己、集会的权利。

  Pavel Durov (00:51:56) And this allows us to operate the way we operate, to build this project and maintain it based on certain fundamental principles, which by the way, I think everybody believes in. I think the right to privacy is included in the constitution of most countries, at least most Western countries, but it’s still under attack almost every week. It often starts with well-meaning proposals. Oh, we have to fight crime, we have to do that, we have to protect the children. But at the end of the day, the result is the same. People lose their right to such fundamental thing as privacy. They sometimes lose their right to express themselves, to assemble.

  (00:52:47) 这是一个我们在几乎每一个专制国家，或者曾经自由后来变得专制的国家都目睹的滑坡。世界上没有一个独裁者说过：”让我们剥夺你们的权利，因为我想为自己攫取更多权力，我想让你们痛苦。” 他们都用听起来非常合理的理由来证明其正当性，然后分阶段逐渐推进。几年后，人们会发现自己处于无助的境地。他们无法抗议。他们发送的每一条信息都被监控。他们无法集会。一切都完了。

  (00:52:47) This is a slippery slope that we witnessed in pretty much every autocratic country or country that used to be free and then became autocratic. No dictator in the world ever said, “Let’s just strip you away from your rights because I want more power to myself and I want you to be miserable.” They all justified it with very reasonable sounding justifications and then it came in stages gradually. After a few years, people would find themselves in a position when they’re helpless. They can’t protest. Every message they sent is monitored. They can’t assemble. It’s over.

  Lex Fridman (00:53:39) 所以你视 Telegram 为一个来自各行各业、每个国家的人都能畅所欲言、发出声音的地方。在地缘政治背景下，你提到政府当其变得专制时，自然而然地，这是世界的方式。人性和政府的本质，它们变得更具审查性。它们开始审查，并且总是在心里证明其合理性，或许假设自己在做好事。

  Lex Fridman (00:53:39) So you see Telegram as a place that people from all walks of life, from every nation can have a place to speak their mind, have a voice in. In the geopolitical context, you’re mentioning that government when they become autocratic naturally is the way of the world. Human nature and the nature of governments, they become more censorious. They begin to censor and always justifying it in their minds perhaps assuming that they’re doing good.

  Pavel Durov (00:54:08) 也许他们中的一些人认为自己在做好事，但有趣的是，其结果总是国家以牺牲个人为代价积累更多权力。那么它在哪里停止呢？我们人类不太擅长找到正确的平衡，在这种情况下，就是在混乱与秩序、自由与结构之间找到正确的平衡。我们往往走向极端。

  Pavel Durov (00:54:08) Perhaps some of them assume they’re doing good, but interestingly, it always results in the state accumulating more power at the expense of the individual. Then where does it stop? We humans are not very good at finding the right balance, and in this case, the right balance between chaos and order, between freedom and structure. We tend to go to extremes.

  Lex Fridman (00:54:44) 我认为你仍然认为自己是自由主义者。关于政府，总有某种东西会随着时间的推移，自然而然地建立起越来越庞大的官僚机构。在那个官僚机构的机器中，它积累了越来越多的权力。并不总是那个官僚机构中的某个个体成员腐蚀了政府建立之初的原则，而只是随着时间的推移，某些东西被遗忘了。你开始审查。你开始限制个人的自由，限制个人发言、表达意见、投票的能力。事情就这样逐渐发生了。

  Lex Fridman (00:54:44) I think you still consider yourself a libertarian. There is something about government that always over time naturally builds a larger and larger bureaucracy. In that machine of bureaucracy, it accumulates more and more power. It’s not always that one individual member of that bureaucracy is the one that corrupts the initial principles on which the government was founded, but just something over time, you forget. You begin to censor. You begin to limit the freedoms of the individual, the ability of the individuals to speak, to have a voice, to vote. It just gradually happens that way.

  Pavel Durov (00:55:29) 而政府并不是某种抽象的概念。政府是由人组成的，这些人有目标。他们自然会倾向于增加影响力，拥有更多的下属，拥有更多的资源。这就是你最终陷入一个无限循环的原因：不断增加的税收，不断增加的监管，这最终扼杀了自由市场、自由企业和言论自由。所以，你确实希望对政府能够以牺牲公民为代价来增加其权力的程度进行非常、非常严格的限制。讽刺的是，你并没有那些限制。

  Pavel Durov (00:55:29) And the government is not some abstract notion. The government consists of people and these people have goals. They would naturally be inclined to increase the level of influence, to have more subordinates, to have more resources. That’s how you end up in an endless loop of ever-increasing taxes, ever-increasing regulation, which ultimately suffocates free market, free enterprise, and free speech. So, you do want to have very, very strict limitations on the extent the government can increase its powers at the expense of citizens. Ironically, you don’t have those limitations.

  (00:56:22) 在所有被认为是自由的国家里，本应是宪法保护每个人，但有趣的是，事情并不总是这样运作。他们能够找到非常狡猾的措辞来 carve out 例外，然后例外就成了规则。

  (00:56:22) You’re supposed in all countries, which are considered to be free. It’s supposed to be the constitution that protects everybody, but interestingly, it doesn’t work always this way. They are able to find very tricky phrasings in order to carve out exceptions and then the exception becomes the rule.

  在法国被捕

  Arrest in France

  Lex Fridman (00:56:49) 关于这个话题，我很想和你谈谈最近的一段经历，关于你去年八月在法国被捕的事。我认为我应该说，这是我近期乃至整个历史上所见过的对科技领袖最严重的权力过度扩张之一。所以，这是悲剧性的，但我觉得它说明了我们一直在谈论的事情。那么，也许你能讲述一下整个事件的经过？你到达了法国。

  Lex Fridman (00:56:49) On this topic, I’d love to talk to you about the recent saga of you being arrested in the August of last year in France. I think I should say that it’s one of the worst overreaches of power I’ve seen as applied to a tech leader in recent history, in all history. So, it’s tragic, but I think speaks to the thing that we’ve been talking about. So, maybe can you tell the full saga what happened? You arrived in France.

  Pavel Durov (00:57:24) 我去年八月抵达法国，只是一个短暂的两天行程，然后我看到十几个武装警察迎接我，并要求我跟着他们。他们向我宣读了一份清单，上面列出了大约 15 项我被指控的严重罪行，这令人难以置信。起初，我以为一定是搞错了。然后我意识到他们是认真的，他们指控我犯了 Telegram 用户据称犯下的所有可能的罪行，或者是一些用户，他们认为我应该对此负责，这又像你说的，是这个星球历史上从未发生过的事情。没有一个国家，甚至不是专制国家，曾对任何科技领袖这样做过，至少不是这种规模。

  Pavel Durov (00:57:24) I arrived in France last year in August just for a short two-day trip and then I see a dozen of armed policemen greeting me and asked me to follow them. They read me a list of something like 15 serious crimes that I’m accused of, which was mind-boggling. At first, I thought there must be some mistake. Then I realized they’re being serious and they’re accusing me of all possible crimes that the users of Telegram have allegedly committed or some users and they think I should be responsible for this, which again, like you said, it’s something that never happened in the history of this planet. No country, not even an authoritarian one did that to any tech leader, at least at this scale.

  (00:58:37) 这样做有充分理由，因为通过向商业和科技界传递这些信息，你是在牺牲经济增长的很大一部分。于是，他们把我放进警车，我发现自己被警方拘留。小房间，没有窗户，只有一张狭窄的混凝土床。我在那里呆了将近四天。在这个过程中，我必须回答警察的一些问题。他们对 Telegram 的运作方式感兴趣。反正大部分都是公开的，令我震惊的是，发起这项调查的人对技术如何运作、加密如何工作、社交媒体如何运作的理解非常有限，或者我该说甚至缺乏理解。

  (00:58:37) There are good reasons for that because you are sacrificing a big part of your economic growth by sending these messages to the business and tech community. So, they put me in a police car and I found myself in police custody. Small room, no windows, just a narrow bed made of concrete. I spent almost four days there. In the process, I had to answer some questions of the policemen. They were interested in how Telegram operates. Most of it is public anyway, and I was struck by very limited understanding or should I say even lack of understanding on behalf of the people who initiated this investigation against me by how technology works, how encryption works, how social media work.

  Lex Fridman (00:59:57) 我的意思是，这有一种黑暗的诗意：一个拥有十亿人在上面交流的平台的科技创始人，你却待在混凝土床上，几天没有枕头，没有窗户。我是弗朗茨·卡夫卡的忠实粉丝，他写过关于这类情况的荒谬性，因此有了”卡夫卡式”的故事。他写过一个故事，也许预言了， literally 就是这种情况，叫做《审判》，其中一个人被捕，原因无人能解释，并且长时间困在司法系统中，有趣的是，在那个故事里，无论是被捕的人还是系统内的任何个体成员，都没有完全理解正在发生什么。

  Lex Fridman (00:59:57) I mean, there’s something darkly poetic about a tech founder of a platform where a billion people are communicating with each other and you’re on concrete, no pillow for days, no windows. I’m a huge fan of Franz Kafka and he’s written about the absurdity of these kinds of situations, hence the Kafkaesque stories. There’s a story literally about the situation that he wrote, perhaps predicted, called The Trial, where a person is arrested for no reason that anybody can explain and is stuck in the judicial system for a long time, that nobody fascinatingly in that story, neither the person arrested nor any individual member of the system itself fully understand what is happening.

  (01:00:45) 没有人能真正回答这些问题，最终，这个人——剧透警告——被整个系统精神摧垮，这就是官僚机构在其最荒谬形式下所能做到的。它摧垮了精神，我们所有人身上承载的人类精神。这就是官僚机构的负面影响。

  (01:00:45) Nobody can truly answer the questions and eventually the person, spoiler alert, is mentally broken by the whole system, which is what bureaucracy can do in its most absurd form. It breaks the spirit, the human spirit laden in all of us. That’s the negative side of bureaucracy.

  Pavel Durov (01:01:05) 我同意你关于这件事的荒谬性，因为如果这是一个善意地试图解决问题的尝试，有那么多种方式可以联系 Telegram，联系我本人，表达他们的关切，并以常规和外交的方式解决任何所谓的问题，就像这个星球上其他每个国家解决这些问题的方式一样，包括与 Telegram。我们这样做过几十次。

  Pavel Durov (01:01:05) I agree with you on the absurdity of this thing because if this was a good faith attempt to fix an issue, there were so many ways to reach out to Telegram, to reach out to me personally, voice their concerns, and solve any alleged problem in a way that is conventional and diplomatic the way every other country on this planet solves these problems, including with Telegram. We did it dozens of times.

  Lex Fridman (01:01:43) 是的，你们有一个很好的页面展示了这一点，就像大多数人不怎么考虑的细节，但 Telegram 处于打击 CSAM 和恐怖组织的最前沿。有一个很好的页面，telegram.org/moderation，显示了参与恐怖活动和 CSAM 活动的群组和频道的惊人数量，这些都被 Telegram 主动发现并封禁。就像你说的，由于自动化，很多这项工作是通过机器学习完成的，其规模是巨大的。

  Lex Fridman (01:01:43) Yeah, you have a nice page showing this is like details that most people don’t really think about, but Telegram is at the forefront of moderating CSAM and terrorist groups. There’s a nice page, telegram.org/moderation that shows just the incredible amount of groups and channels that are engaged in terrorist activity and CSAM activity that are actively blocked, found and blocked by Telegram. A lot of this work, like you said, because of the automation is done with machine learning, just the scale is insane.

  (01:02:22) 这是大多数像我这样只是在 Telegram 上聊天的新手不会想到的事情，但那里确实有大量的人 essentially 在做违法的事情，而你必须立即找到并制止它们。我想所有平台都必须处理这个问题。Telegram 在处理这些内容方面做得很好。你说的是法国政府根本不知道。他们甚至知道机器学习是什么吗？

  (01:02:22) This is stuff that most noobs like me who are just chatting it up on Telegram don’t think about, but there’s just an immense number of people essentially doing things that violate the law on there and you have to find them immediately and catch it. I guess all platforms have to deal with it. Telegram was doing a great job of dealing with that content. What you’re saying is the French government had no idea. Do they even know what machine learning is?

  Pavel Durov (01:02:53) 这是一个向他们解释起来很有挑战的概念，但我认为到这次调查结束时，他们会学到更多关于它的知识。这是我的希望。无论如何，你是对的。如果你看看 Telegram，我们从 10 年前就开始打击在我们的平台上公开传播的有害内容，实际上从我们在 Telegram 上推出公共频道的时候就开始了。大约从八年前开始，我们就有每日透明度报告，说明我们每天删除了多少与虐待儿童或恐怖主义宣传相关的频道。

  Pavel Durov (01:02:53) It’s a concept that is challenging to explain to them, but I think they will learn much more about it by the end of this investigation. That’s my hope. In any case, you’re right. If you look at Telegram, we’ve been fighting harmful content that is publicly distributed on our platform since 10 years ago, actually since the time we launched public channels on Telegram. Since something like eight years ago, we had daily transparency reports on how many channels related to child abuse or terrorist propaganda we’ve taken down daily.

  (01:03:41) 每天我们可能会删除数百个，如果包括我们移除的所有类型的内容，所有账户、群组、频道、帖子，那每周将达到数百万条内容，每天数十万条。然后有人会读到报纸，因为读到一些关于儿童色情的内容而愤怒。这是一个非常情绪化的话题，然后开始做一些不是基于数据、逻辑思考和法律，而是基于从不准确信息中产生的情绪驱动的事情。

  (01:03:41) Every day we’ve taken maybe we’d take down hundreds of them, and if you include all kinds of content that we remove, all the accounts, groups, channels, posts, that would amount to millions of pieces of content every week, hundreds of thousands every day. Then somebody would read the newspaper, get enraged because they would read something about child porn. This is a subject that is very emotionally charged and start doing something not based on data and logical thinking and laws, but based on emotions driven from inaccurate input.

  Lex Fridman (01:04:36) 是的，我认为我们应该非常清楚地表明，没有任何理由，法国政府本不应该逮捕你，但现实就是这样。这就是你所处的境地。那么，明确地说，你必须定期出庭面对法官。所有这一切都荒谬得可笑。如果不是极其严重的话，这会很滑稽。你必须每隔一段时间就出庭面对法官。那是什么样的经历？

  Lex Fridman (01:04:36) Yeah, I think we should make pretty clear that there’s no world, no reason that the French government should have arrested you, but here we are. That’s the situation you’re in. So, to be clear, you have to show up in front of a judge. All of this is beautifully absurd. It would be hilarious if it wasn’t extremely serious. You have to show up in front of a judge every certain amount of time. What is that experience like?

  Pavel Durov (01:05:01) 在法国，他们有调查法官这个角色。我认为世界上很多其他地方没有这个角色。这意味着我还没有受审，我还在被调查。在法国，不仅仅是警察或检察官问我问题。是一位法官，根据我的经验，这更像仍然是一个检察官，但被称为法官。这使得上诉更加困难。所以，如果你在可以旅行的国家受到限制，那么上诉这种限制会花费你很多时间。调查本身根本就不应该启动。对于像监管社交媒体这样复杂的问题，这是一种荒谬且有害的解决方式。这完全是错误的工具。所以，我们对调查本身提出了反对和上诉。我们去年就做了，我相信。

  Pavel Durov (01:05:01) In France, they have this role of investigative judge. I don’t think you have it in many other places in the world. It means I’m not on trial, I’m being investigated. In France, it’s not just the police or prosecutor asking me questions. It’s a judge, which in my experience is more like still a prosecutor, but it’s called a judge. That makes it harder to appeal. So, if you are limited in say, countries where you can travel, then to appeal that restriction will take you a lot of time. The investigation itself should have never been started. It’s an absurd and harmful way of solving an issue such as complicated as regulating social media. It is just the wrong tool. So, we objected and appealed the investigation itself. We did last year, I believe.

  (01:06:14) 我们甚至还没有得到上诉的听证日期，因为过程缓慢得令人痛苦，不仅对我，对每个人都是如此，这让我意识到这个系统可能在多个层面都出了问题。还有其他受法国司法系统影响的企业家告诉我他们经历的恐怖故事，他们的业务被调查法官非常不必要的行动所瘫痪，而这些行动最终被证明是不合理和有偏见的。最终，也许当你到达更高一级法院时，你可以解决它，得到公正，但在这个过程中你会失去大量的时间和精力。所以，这是唯一一件，我希望，与你在卡夫卡故事中讲述的情况不同并且将会不同的地方。

  (01:06:14) We’re still not even given a hearing date for the appeal because the process is painfully slow, not just for me but for everybody, which made me realize the system may be broken in many levels. You have other entrepreneurs affected by the French justice system telling me horror stories about their experiences where businesses got paralyzed by very unnecessary actions of investigative judges that ended up being unjustified and biased. In the end, you can perhaps solve it when you reach a higher court and you’ll get justice, but you’ll lose a lot of time and energy in the process. So, this is the only thing that is, I hope, different and will be different in this case compared to the story you told from Kafka.

  Lex Fridman (01:07:31) 我的意思是，但正如卡夫卡所描述的那样，它确实随着时间的推移摧垮了很多人。所以我们应该说，你有很长一段时间不被允许离开法国旅行。现在你可以去迪拜了。我们现在就在迪拜，有幸见到了许多在 Telegram 工作的人。Telegram 总部设在迪拜，但你不被允许去任何其他地方旅行。你觉得什么时候能来德克萨斯州和我一起聚聚？

  Lex Fridman (01:07:31) I mean, but it does as Kafka describes break a lot of people with time. So, we should say that you’re for a long time not allowed to travel out of France. Now you can travel to Dubai. We’re now in Dubai, got to meet many of the people that work at Telegram. Telegram is headquartered in Dubai, but you’re not allowed to travel anywhere else. When do you think you’re coming to Texas to hang out with me over there?

  Pavel Durov (01:08:01) 这是个很难回答的问题，因为它不仅仅取决于我的行动。我只能这么说，我有耐心。我不会让这种对我自由的限制支配我的行动。如果有任何影响，我只会加倍努力捍卫自由，因为我亲身经历了失去自由的感觉，至少在那四天被警方拘留期间，当你被困住，无法与对你重要的人交流，甚至不知道世界上关于你个人发生了什么。所以，我没有水晶球可以告诉我未来。我不能说我悲观。我认为我们已经能够逐步解除去年八月最初施加在我自由上的大部分限制。

  Pavel Durov (01:08:01) That’s a hard question to answer because it doesn’t depend on just my actions. I can just say this, I’m patient. I will not let this limitation on my freedom dictate my actions. I will, if anything, double down on defending freedoms because I experienced firsthand what the absence of freedom feels like at least during these four days in police custody when you are just stuck, unable to communicate with people that are important to you, when you don’t even know what’s going on in the world in relation to you personally. So, I have no crystal ball that would tell me the future. I can’t say that I am pessimistic. I think we’ve been able to gradually remove most of the restrictions initially imposed on my freedom last August.

  Lex Fridman (01:09:23) 如果法国政府或法国情报机构想要一个后门，或者想要访问用户的私人消息，你会对他们说什么？他们有什么办法可以获取用户的私人消息吗？

  Lex Fridman (01:09:23) If the French government or the French intelligence agency want to have a back door or want to access private user messages, what would you say to them? Is there anything they can do to get access to the private user messages?

  Pavel Durov (01:09:42) 没有。我的回应会非常明确，但不会很礼貌。所以，我不确定。

  Pavel Durov (01:09:42) Nothing. My response would be very clear, but it won’t be very polite. So, I’m not sure.

  Lex Fridman (01:09:52) 在这里说很好。

  Lex Fridman (01:09:52) It’s good to say here.

  Pavel Durov (01:09:53) 在这里说很好，因为你打着领带。

  Pavel Durov (01:09:53) It’s good to say because you are wearing a tie.

  Lex Fridman (01:09:57) 是的，这是一个严肃的、成人般的、绅士风格的节目。是的，但这是人们的一个担忧。

  Lex Fridman (01:09:57) Yeah, this is a serious adult gentleman-like program. Yeah, but that is a concern.

  Lex Fridman (01:10:00) ……一个绅士风格的节目，是的。但这是人们的一个担忧，当你面临来自政府的如此大的压力时，随着时间的推移，他们会拖垮你，然后你就会屈服。然后，当然，其他地方会利用这一点作为宣传来攻击你，你基本上受到每个国家的攻击。所以，这是一个难以运作的媒介。做你这样的人很难，要为自由而战，要为保护人们的隐私而战。但是，你能否说些什么来向人们保证，你不会牺牲你刚刚表达的任何原则，即使法国政府不断拖垮你？

  Lex Fridman (01:10:00) … a gentleman-like program, yeah. But that is a concern that people have is when you have so much pressure from governments that, over time, they’ll wear you down and you’ll give in. And then, of course, other places use that as propaganda to try to attack you, you get attacked by basically every nation. So, it’s a difficult medium in which to operate. It’s difficult to be you fighting for freedom, fighting to preserve people’s privacy. But is there something you could say to reassure people that you’re not going to sacrifice any of the principles that you’ve just expressed if the French government just keeps wearing you down?

  Pavel Durov (01:10:42) 我认为法国政府正在输掉这场战斗，这场战斗是错误的。我受到的压力越大，我就变得越有韧性和反抗精神。而且我想在过去的几个月里，当有人试图利用我困在法国的处境，接近我并要求我在其他国家做一些事情，封锁某些频道，改变 Telegram 的运作方式时，我已经证明了这一点。我不仅拒绝了，我还告诉了全世界，并且我将继续告诉全世界每一次，任何政府，特别是法国政府，试图强迫我做任何事情的实例。我宁愿失去我所拥有的一切，也不愿屈服于这种压力，因为，如果你屈服于这种压力，同意一些根本错误并且也侵犯他人权利的事情，你在内心就垮掉了，在深刻的生物和精神层面上，你变成了从前自我的空壳。

  Pavel Durov (01:10:42) I think the French government is losing this battle, this battle is wrong. The more pressure I get, the more resilient and defiant I become. And I think I have proven that in the last several months when there were attempts to use my situation being stuck here in France by approaching me and asking me to do things in other countries, blocking certain channels, changing the way Telegram works. And not only I refused, I told the world about it and I’m going to keep telling the world about every instance, any government, in this case in particular, the French government, tries to force me to do anything. And I would rather lose everything I have than yield to this pressure because, if you submit to this pressure and agree with something that is fundamentally wrong and violates rights of other people as well, you become broken inside, you become a shell of your former self on a deep biological and spiritual level.

  (01:12:10) 所以，我不会那样做。世界上可能还有其他人会考虑那样做，我不在乎。Telegram 消失成一些人们不理解的东西，包括这些情报机构或政府，我不在乎，我会没事的。如果他们把我关进监狱 20 年——让我们明确一点，我不认为这是现实的，但让我们只是把它当作一个假设情况来考虑——我宁愿在那里绝食而死，重启整个游戏，也不愿做蠢事。

  (01:12:10) So, I wouldn’t do that. There are probably other people in the world that would consider that, I don’t care. Telegram disappears to something people don’t understand, including in this intelligence services or governments, I don’t care, I’ll be fine. If they put me into prison for 20 years which, let’s be clear, it’s not something that I think is realistic but let’s just think about it as a hypothetical situation. I would rather starve myself to death and die there, reboot the whole game than do something stupid.

  罗马尼亚选举

  Romanian elections

  Lex Fridman (01:12:59) 让我问你一个你谈论的事情的例子。讲讲 Telegram 在罗马尼亚选举中的那段经历。那么，在所有这些之中，你仍然在为保护言论自由而战。发生了什么？你不得不做出哪些决定？

  Lex Fridman (01:12:59) Let me ask you about an example of the thing you’re talking about. Tell the saga of Telegram in the Romanian election. So, amidst all this, you are still fighting to preserve the freedom of speech. What happened and what were some of the decisions you had to make?

  Pavel Durov (01:13:16) 所以，当我被困在法国，几个月无法离开这个国家时，有人提出让我通过一个我相当熟悉的人会见国家外国情报部门的负责人，他实际上是法国一位知名的科技企业家，人脉很广，他说：”这个人想见你。” 我说：”好吧，行，见就见，但我不承诺任何事。” 我参加了那次会面，在那次会面中，我被要求限制我所认为的罗马尼亚的言论自由。我不知道你是否关注了罗马尼亚选举的整个事件，他们去年举行了总统选举，结果被取消了。现在，罗马尼亚，在我进行那次会面时，正在准备新的总统选举，保守派候选人不是法国政府支持的人，所以他们问我是否愿意关闭或准备关闭 Telegram 上支持保守派候选人或抗议亲欧候选人的频道，所以他们称他们喜欢的那个人为亲欧的。

  Pavel Durov (01:13:16) So, when I got stuck in France unable to leave the country for a few months, I was offered to meet the head of state foreign intelligence services through a person I know quite well, he’s actually a well-known tech entrepreneur in France and he’s well-connected and he said, “This guy wants to meet you.” I said, “Okay, fine, let’s do that but I’m not promising anything.” I took the meeting and, in this meeting, I was asked to restrict what I see as restriction of freedom of speech in Romania. I don’t know if you followed the whole saga with the Romanian elections, they had a presidential elections last year, the results got canceled. Now, Romania, at that point when I had this meeting, was preparing for a new presidential elections, the conservative candidate was not somebody who the French government was supportive of so they asked me whether I would be shutting down or ready to shut down channels on Telegram. Let’s support the conservative candidate or protest against the pro-European candidates so they called the guy they liked.

  (01:14:49) 我说：”听着，如果没有违反 Telegram 的规则——这些规则相当明确，你不能呼吁暴力。但如果是和平示威，如果是和平辩论，我们不能这样做，那将是政治审查。我们在世界上许多国家保护了言论自由，包括在亚洲、东欧和中东，我们不会开始在欧洲进行审查，无论谁要求我们。” 我对那个法国情报负责人说得非常清楚，我说：”如果你认为，因为我被困在这里，你就可以告诉我该做什么，那你就大错特错了。我宁愿每次都反其道而行之，” 而且在某种程度上我就是这么做的。我和他就这整件事的道德性进行了一场小辩论，然后，在某个时间点，就把这次谈话的全部内容公之于众，因为我从未签署过保密协议。我从不与任何那样的人签署保密协议，我希望能够告诉世界发生了什么。

  (01:14:49) I said, “Look, if there is no violation of the rules of Telegram which are quite clear, you can’t call to violence. But if it’s a peaceful demonstration, if it’s a peaceful debate, we can’t do this, it would be political censorship. We protected freedom of speech in many countries in the world, put it in Asia and Eastern Europe and Middle East, we’re not going to start engaging in censorship in Europe no matter who is asking us.” I was very clear to the guy who was the head of French intelligence, I said, “If you think that, because I’m stuck here, you can tell me what to do, you are very wrong. I would rather do the opposite every time,” and in a way that’s what I did. I had a small debate with him about the morality of this whole thing and then, at a certain point, just disclose the content of this entire conversation because I never signed an NDA. I don’t ever sign NDAs with any people like that, I want to be able to tell the world what’s going on.

  (01:16:12) 这让我相当震惊，法国政府里会有人试图利用这种情况。当然，如果他们与这项调查本身的启动无关，并且利用它来达到他们的政治或地缘政治目标，我认为这是企图 personally 羞辱我个人，并 collectively 羞辱数百万 Telegram 用户。而且相当奇怪的是，同一个机构也要求我们在摩尔多瓦做一些事情。所以，甚至在那之前，我想是去年十月或九月，我于八月底在巴黎被捕，然后再次通过中间人接洽，被问到：”你介意在摩尔多瓦删除一些频道吗？因为那里正在进行选举，我们担心这些选举会受到一些干扰。你能请联系摩尔多瓦政府的代表并处理一下吗？” 我们说：”我们很乐意看一看，看看那里是否有违反我们规则的内容。”

  (01:16:12) And that’s quite shocking to me that you would have people in the French government trying to get advantage of this situation. Of course, if they had nothing to do with the start of this investigation itself and use it to reach their political or geopolitical goals, I consider it an attempt to humiliate myself personally and millions of Telegram users collectively. And it’s quite strange that the same agency asked us to do certain things in Moldova as well. So, even before that, I think it was October last year or September, I was arrested in Paris in late August and then again approached through an intermediary and asked, “Would you mind taking down some channels in Moldova because there is an election going on and we’re afraid there’re going to be some interference with these elections. Could you please connect with representatives of the government of Moldova and take care of it?” We said, “We’re happy to take a look at it and see if there is content there that is in violation of our rules.”

  (01:17:50) 他们给我们发了一份频道和机器人的列表，其中一些是……所以，那是一份很短的列表，其中一些频道和机器人确实违反了我们的规则，我们删除了它们，只有少数几个，其余的没问题。然后他们说了谢谢，又给我们发了几十个频道的列表，很多很多频道。我们查看了这些频道，我们意识到没有充分的理由来证明封禁它们是合理的，我们拒绝这样做。但有趣的是，要求我们在摩尔多瓦这样做的法国情报部门，通过联系人让我知道，在 Telegram 封禁了摩尔多瓦少数几个违反我们规则的频道之后，他们与我的法官，也就是对我启动调查的调查法官谈了话，并向法官说了关于我的好事，我发现这非常令人困惑，而且在某种程度上，令人震惊，因为这两件事毫无共同之处。

  (01:17:50) And they sent us a list of channels and bots, some of them were … So, it was a very short list and some of these channels and bots were in violation indeed of our rules and we took them down, only a few of them, the rest were okay. Then they said thank you and sent us another list of dozens of channels, many, many channels. We looked at these channels, we realized that there is no solid foundation to justify banning them and we refused to do that. But interestingly enough, the French intelligence services that were asking us to do this in Moldova, let me know through the contact that, after Telegram banned the few channels that were in violation of our rules in Moldova, they talked to my judge, the investigative judge in this investigation that has been started against me, and told the judge could things about me which I have found very confusing and, in a way, shocking because these two matters have nothing in common.

  (01:19:27) 为什么有人会跟一个试图查明 Telegram 在删除法国非法内容方面是否做得足够好的调查法官谈话，摩尔多瓦跟这有什么关系？那一刻我变得非常怀疑。记住，这件事发生在我们封禁了少数几个违反我们规则的频道之后，但在我们拒绝封禁一长串其他完全没问题的频道之前，那些只是人们表达政治观点，我可能不同意，但他们有权表达。不是极端观点，不是呼吁暴力的观点。那是极其令人警觉的，那一刻我告诉自己，这里可能还有比我最初想象的更多的事情。最初我以为，是的，有些人对技术运作方式感到困惑，而在摩尔多瓦这件事之后，我变得怀疑得多。所以，等到情报部门负责人见我，要求关于罗马尼亚的事情，帮助他们压制罗马尼亚的保守派声音时，我已经对接下来可能发生的事情警惕了。

  (01:19:27) Why would anyone talk to an investigative judge that is trying to find out whether Telegram did a good enough job in removing illegal content in France, what does Moldova have to do with it? I got very suspicious at that moment. Remember, it happened after we blocked a few channels that violated our rules but before we refused to block a long list of other channels that were completely fine which is people expressing political views which I may not agree with but it’s their right to express them. Not extreme views, not views that call to violence. That was extremely alarming, that was a moment when I told myself that there may be more going on here that I initially thought. Initially I thought, yeah, some people are confused about how technology works and, after this case in Moldova, I got much more suspicious. So, by the time the head of intelligence services met me to ask about Romania to help them silencing conservative voices in Romania, I was already wary of what can be going on next.

  Lex Fridman (01:21:18) 是的。所以，很明显，这是一个系统性的企图，向你施压，要求你审查法国政府不同意的政治声音。我们应该说，你曾为左翼团体和右翼团体的言论自由而战，这真的不重要。所以，并不是说你没有政治立场、政治意识形态，你为之奋斗，你正在创建一个平台，只要他们不呼吁暴力，就允许来自各行各业、所有意识形态的人畅所欲言，这才是重点。而在罗马尼亚选举中，碰巧是保守派的声音是法国政府想要审查的，因为目前法国政府偏左。但如果你把一切都翻转过来，政府是右翼的，你也会为反对审查左翼声音而战，而且你过去已经做过很多次了。

  Lex Fridman (01:21:18) Yeah. So, clearly, this was a systematic attempt to pressure you to censor political voices that the French government doesn’t agree with. And we should say that you have fought for freedom of speech for left-wing groups and right-wing groups, it really doesn’t matter. So, it’s not you don’t have a political affiliation, political ideology that you fight for, you’re creating a platform that, as long as they don’t call for violence, allows people from all walks of life, from all ideologies to speak their mind, that’s the whole point. And it happens to be conservative voices in the Romania election that the French government wanted to censor because, currently, the French government leans left. But if you flip everything around and the government would be right wing, you’d be fighting against censorship of left-wing voices and you have in the past many times.

  Pavel Durov (01:22:13) 完全正确。讽刺的是，我们收到了法国警方要求删除 Telegram 上一个法国极左抗议者频道的请求。我们拒绝这样做。我们查看了那个频道，是和平抗议者。对我们来说，我们是在捍卫偏右还是偏左人士的言论自由，这并不重要。在 COVID 期间，我们保护了组织”黑人的命也是命”活动的活动人士，也保护了另一边的反封锁抗议者。我们保护每一个人，只要他们不越界，不开始呼吁暴力或煽动破坏公共财产。集会是一项基本权利。有趣的是，那些没有在不自由国家生活过经历的人，并不总是意识到逐渐妥协你的价值观、原则、自由、权利是多么危险，因为他们不明白利害关系是什么。

  Pavel Durov (01:22:13) Exactly. Ironically, we received a request from the French police to take down a channel of far left protesters on Telegram in France. We refused to do that. We looked at the channel, peaceful protesters. It doesn’t matter for us whether we are defending the freedom of speech of people leaning right or leaning left. During COVID, we were protecting activists that were organizing the Black Lives Matter events and the other side, the protesters against lockdowns. We protect everybody as long as they are not crossing the lines and not starting to call to violence or incite damage to public property. It’s a fundamental right to assemble. It’s interesting that people who haven’t had this experience of living in countries that don’t have freedoms don’t always realize how dangerous it is to gradually compromise your values, your principles, your freedoms, your rights because they don’t understand what’s at stake.

  权力与腐败

  Power and corruption

  Lex Fridman (01:23:56) 是的，这些事情会变成一个滑坡。所以，你很多很多年，包括现在，都高度赞扬法国，你热爱法国历史，法国文化。我认为这种情况，这个历史上犯下的错误，简单地说，对法国来说只是一个巨大的公关错误。没有任何有抱负成为下一个 Pavel Durov、创造下一个 Telegram 的企业家，在看到这一切之后，还想在法国运营。这次逮捕没有任何正当理由，是法律的误用，各种压力，各种似乎出于政治动机的行为，所有那种事情，所有过度的监管和官僚主义，对于梦想创造对世界有影响和积极意义的东西的企业家来说是一场噩梦。

  Lex Fridman (01:23:56) Yeah, these things become a slippery slope. So, you’ve, for many, many years, including currently, have spoken very highly of France, you love French history, French culture. I think this situation, this historic wrong that’s been done is, put simply, is just a gigantic PR mistake for France. There’s no entrepreneur that sees, that aspires to be the next Pavel Durov to create the next Telegram, sees this and wants to operate in France after seeing this. There is no justification for this arrest, there’s a misapplication of the law, all kinds of pressures, all kinds of behavior that seems politically motivated, all that kind of stuff, all the excessive regulation and the bureaucracy, a nightmare for entrepreneurs that dream to create something impactful and positive for the world.

  (01:24:50) 那么，你认为法国政府、法国体系需要修复什么？然后，放大来看，因为你在欧洲也看到类似的事情，有什么可以促使企业家发展，可以扭转我们在欧洲似乎看到的、对企业家越来越不友好的趋势？什么可以被修复？应该修复什么？

  (01:24:50) So, what do you think needs to be fixed about the French government, the French system and then, zooming out, because you see similar kinds of things in Europe, that could enable entrepreneurs, that could reverse the trend that we seem to be seeing in Europe that is becoming less and less friendly to entrepreneurs? What can be fixed? What should be fixed?

  Pavel Durov (01:25:20) 我认为欧洲社会必须决定他们希望其不断增长的公共部门停止增长的位置，他们认为政府的合适规模应该是多大。因为今天，如果你以法国为例，这是一个拥有大量人才的美好国家，但公共支出占该国 GDP 的 58%，这 maybe 比苏联最后阶段还要多。所以，你存在这种不平衡，代表国家的人远远多于试图通过创造伟大产品和伟大公司来推动国家经济发展的人。

  Pavel Durov (01:25:20) I think the European society must decide where they want their ever-increasing public sector to stop increasing, what they think should be the right size of government. Because today, if you take France for example which is a beautiful country with a lot of talented people, but public expenses are 58% of the country’s GDP, it’s maybe as much more than in the latest stage of the Soviet Union. So, you have this disbalance where you have many more people representing the state as opposed to people trying to bring the country’s economy forward by creating great products and great companies.

  (01:26:26) 初创领域和我所在的领域，社交媒体领域，受到了巨大的影响。过去 10 年里，法国在这个领域有一家伟大的初创公司，是一个基于位置的社交网络，最终卖给了 Snapchat。但在它被出售之前，创始人问我他是否应该卖掉，我告诉他：”永远不要卖。你正在做一件伟大的事情。你拥有大量用户，在许多国家都有有机增长，这是法国首个此类成功故事。” 但几周后他还是卖掉了。

  (01:26:26) The start-up field and my field, social media field has been affected by it immensely. There was one great start-up in this realm in France in the last 10 years, it was this location-based social network, it was eventually sold to Snapchat. But before it was sold, the founder asked me whether he should sell, I told him, “Never sell. You have a great thing going. You have lots of users, you have organic traction in many countries and the first of this kind of success story in France.” But then he sold anyway in a couple of weeks.

  (01:27:12) 后来我遇见了他，他现在正尝试做新的事情，我遇见他时问他，我试图理解哪里出了问题，他告诉我的一件事是，当他试图经营他的公司，与 Facebook、Instagram、Snapchat 竞争，承受来自投资者的所有压力，试图雇佣最优秀的人并说服他们去巴黎时——顺便说一句，他做得很好——但当他努力做这些的时候，他也受到了一些愚蠢调查的攻击， again，涉及数据保护问题，这些调查持续了很长时间，逐渐吸干了他的团队和公司的血液，不断的审讯、披露请求。

  (01:27:12) And later I met him, he’s trying to do a new thing now, I met him and I asked him, I was trying to understand what went wrong and one of the things he told me about is that, while he was trying to run his company, competing with Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, having all this pressure from investors, trying to hire the best people and persuade them to go to Paris, and he did a great job by the way, but while he was trying to do that, he got also attacked by some silly investigation, again, involving the data protection issues which lasted forever and was gradually sucking blood of his team and his company, constant interrogations, disclosure requests.

  (01:28:14) 而这是一家年轻的公司，这显著增加了压力水平，在某个时刻，我认为压力太大了，他决定，again，干脆卖掉它。最终结果证明没有问题，据我了解，调查以没有指控结束，但是，这样的调查是有代价的，有成本的。

  (01:28:14) And this is a young company, it significantly increases the level of stress and, at some point, I think the pressure was too much, he decided to, again, just sell it. Eventually it turned out that there was no issue, the investigation ended as far as I understand with no charges but, such investigations, they have a price, they have a cost.

  (01:28:45) 除非社会意识到那些从未被创建、或者在非常早期就卖给美国或其他国家、导致经济增长放缓的项目、公司、初创公司的成本，否则事情不会改变。我想我们几天前刚和一个家伙谈过，他离开了法国，在迪拜创业，他不得不离开法国的原因之一是政府开始调查他的公司，并冻结了他的银行账户，这项涉及税收的调查持续了很多很多年，我相信他说是八年。

  (01:28:45) And unless the society realizes the cost of projects, of companies, of start-ups that are never created or sold to the United States at the very early stage or other countries resulting in decreased economic growth, things won’t change. I think we just talked to a guy a few days ago who left France and started a business here in Dubai and one of the reasons he had to leave France is that the government started an investigation on his company and they frozen his bank accounts and this investigation that involved taxes lasted for many, many years, I believe he said eight years.

  (01:29:36) 在这八年结束时，政府得出结论，没有任何问题，他很好，没事。与此同时，他的公司银行账户被冻结，他的业务死了。他之所以能够保持理智，唯一的原因是他搬到了迪拜，开了一家新公司，这家公司非常成功，现在他正用他伟大的想法和创造力丰富着我们所在的这个城市。

  (01:29:36) And at the end of this eight years, the government reached to the conclusion that there was nothing wrong, he’s good, it’s okay. In the meantime, his corporate bank accounts were frozen, his business died. The only reason why he was able to retain sanity is because he moved to Dubai and started a new company which is incredibly successful and now he’s enriching this city which we’re in right now with his great ideas and creativity.

  Lex Fridman (01:30:17) 顺便说一下，与他接触过，他眼里有火，那种推动创业精神的人类精神。不管那是什么，他不必这么做，他已经赚了很多钱。他可能什么都不用做，但他仍然想要创造，那火焰正是滋养伟大国家的东西。建设，建设，建设，建设新东西，扩张，所有这一切，而监管窒息了这些。

  Lex Fridman (01:30:17) And by the way, having interacted with him, there’s a fire in his eyes, the human spirit that fuels entrepreneurship. Whatever that is, he doesn’t have to do it, he’s made a lot of money. He probably doesn’t have to do anything but he still wants to create and that fires what fuels great nations. Build, build, build, build new stuff, expand, all of that and regulation suffocates that.

  Pavel Durov (01:30:40) 你必须珍惜这些人。

  Pavel Durov (01:30:40) You have to cherish this people.

  Lex Fridman (01:30:41) 是的。

  Lex Fridman (01:30:41) Yeah.

  Pavel Durov (01:30:42) 但我想法国公众或部分法国公众被误导了，我不知道从什么时候开始，也许从法国大革命时代起，就认为企业家 somehow 是他们的敌人。他们是邪恶的富人，是所有问题的根源，仿佛只要你能让富人把他们非法获得的财富与其余人口分享，那么所有问题都会神奇地解决。然而在现实中，很多这样眼里有火、创办这类公司的人，正在牺牲他们的生活、他们的生计。

  Pavel Durov (01:30:42) But I guess the French public or some part of the French public was misled and I don’t know when, perhaps since the time of the French Revolution, to believe that entrepreneurs are somehow their enemies. They’re the evil rich people that are the cause of all problems as if only you could make the rich share their ill-gotten wealth with the rest of the population then every problem will be magically solved. In reality though, a lot of these people that are starting such companies with fire in their eyes are sacrificing their lives, their livelihood.

  (01:31:27) 他们每天工作 20 小时，承受着巨大的压力，以实现愿景，为他们周围的社会带来价值和好处。他们创造就业，创造伟大的服务，创造伟大的商品，他们让你的国家增长，让你的人民感到自豪，你必须珍惜他们。但体制对他们做了什么？它把他们挤走了，因为也许税务当局里有人决定推进自己的职业生涯，也许太野心勃勃而不够聪明，结果，一家公司被摧毁了。

  (01:31:27) They’re working 20 hours a day, they’re experiencing immense stress in order to fulfill the vision and bring value and good to the society around them. They create jobs, they create great services, they create great goods, they make your country grow, they make your people proud, you have to cherish them. But what does the system do to them? It squeezes them out because perhaps there was somebody in the tax authority that decided to advance their career and perhaps was too ambitious and not too smart so, as a result, a company was destroyed.

  (01:32:17) 而现在，顺便说一下，我们谈论的同一个企业家，被邀请回到法国。他们向他提供了非常好的条件，他说他们将在香榭丽舍大街开设这个新场所，我们会给你最好的位置，我们会资助一部分，还有税收减免，他说：”绝不。忘了这个吧，不可能。我不会回法国。” 他对这段经历有心理创伤，他是法国人，他在那里出生，他持有法国护照。所以，除非这样的事情发生变化，否则法国和欧洲其他地区将继续与经济停滞、预算赤字、失业以及所有其他相关的社会和经济指标作斗争。

  (01:32:17) And now the same entrepreneur, by the way, who we talked to is invited to come back to France. He’s been offered really good terms, he said they’re going to open this new venue on Champs-Élysées, we’re going to give you the best location, we’re going to fund part of it, tax breaks and he said, “Never. Just forget about this, it’s impossible. I’m not coming back to France.” He’s traumatized by the experience and he’s French, he was born there, he has a French passport. So, unless things like this change, France and the rest of Europe will keep struggling with economic growth, with budget deficits, with unemployment and all the other relevant social and economic metrics.

  Lex Fridman (01:33:06) 是的，这令人心碎。这些国家中的许多，我欣赏其历史和文化的价值，我希望欧洲和法国繁荣，但这不是繁荣所需的要素。快速暂停一下，我需要去下洗手间。

  Lex Fridman (01:33:06) Yeah, it’s heartbreaking. Many of these nations, I appreciate the historic and the culture of value and I hope Europe and France flourish but this is not the components that are required for flourishing. Quick pause, I need a bathroom break.

  Read All

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• Telegram创始人帕维尔·杜罗夫2025年10月播客实录 | 中英文完整版精译 Part1

  2025-10-20

  LZN

  thinking

  thinking

  书童按：本篇是帕维尔·杜罗夫（Pavel Durov）于2025年10月接受Lex Fridman的播客采访实录，Pavel是端到端加密通信软件Telegram的创始人兼CEO。其采访中涉及死亡、自由、极度自律、严格饮食和锻炼、斯多葛式生活等观点，精彩绝伦，令人击节称赞。初稿采用AI机器翻译，经自动化中英混排，书童仅做简单校对及批注。原稿中英文混排近7万字，书童将分为Part1-4发出，以飨诸君。

  

  **帕维尔·杜罗夫：Telegram、自由、审查、金钱、权力与人性

  莱克斯·弗里德曼播客**

  **Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature

  Lex Fridman Podcast**

  介绍

  Introduction

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:00:00) 以下是与帕维尔·杜罗夫的对话，他是即时通讯平台Telegram的创始人兼CEO，该平台活跃用户超过10亿。帕维尔一生都在为言论自由而战，构建保护人类通信免受监视和审查的工具。为此，他面临过来自地球上一些最强大的政府和组织的压力。面对这些巨大的压力，他始终坚守立场，持续为保护用户隐私和我们所有人类彼此沟通的自由而战。我有机会与他共度了几周时间，可以肯定地说，他是我见过的最有原则和最无畏的人之一。另外，当我发帖说我正和帕维尔在一起时，很多人，他的粉丝，写信问我，他是否真的私下过着众所周知的那种纪律严明的苦行生活：不喝酒，斯多葛心态，严格的饮食和锻炼，包括每天疯狂数量的引体向上和俯卧撑。没有手机，除了偶尔测试Telegram功能，等等这些。

  Lex Fridman (00:00:00) The following is a conversation with Pavel Durov, Founder and CEO of Telegram, a messaging platform actively used by over 1 billion people. Pavel has spent his life fighting for freedom of speech, building tools that protect human communication from surveillance and censorship. For this, he has faced pressure from some of the most powerful governments and organizations on earth. In the face of this immense pressure, he has always held his ground, continuously fighting to protect user privacy and the freedom of all of us humans to communicate with each other. I got the chance to spend a few weeks with him and can definitively say that he’s one of the most principled and fearless humans I’ve ever met. Plus, when I posted that I’m hanging out with Pavel, a lot of people, fans of his, wrote to me asking if he does, in fact, privately live the disciplined ascetic life he’s known for. No alcohol, stoic mindset, strict diet and exercise, including a crazy amount of daily pull-ups and push-ups. No phone, except to occasionally test Telegram features, and so on.

  (00:01:12) 是的，他百分之百就是那样的人，这让我与他共处的经历真的非常鼓舞人心。我对此心怀感激，也很感激现在能称他为朋友。这次播客对话部分是关于哲学的，关于自由、生活、人性以及政府官僚机构的本质。它部分也超级技术性，因为对我来说，Telegram拥有一个相对较小的工程团队，却基本上能够以惊人的速度推出新的、独特的功能，从而在所有竞争对手中实现创新领先。就像《辛普森一家》的那个梗”他们先做的”一样，当你考虑我们通信应用中所有我们熟知和喜爱的功能时，几乎在每种情况下，都是Telegram先做的。所以我们讨论了所有内容，从他在法国所面临的那种卡夫卡式的处境，到他生活和职业生涯的过山车般经历，再到他关于技术、自由和人类境况的哲学。

  (00:01:12) Yes, he’s 100% that guy, which made the experience of hanging out with him really inspiring to me. I’m grateful for it and I’m grateful to now be able to call him a friend. This podcast conversation is in parts philosophical, about freedom, life, human nature, and the nature of government bureaucracies. And it is also in parts super technical because to me, it’s fascinating that Telegram has a relatively small engineering team and yet is able to basically out-innovate all of its competitors with an insane rate of introducing new, unique features. Just like the meme of the Simpsons did it first, when you consider all the features we know and love in our communication apps, in almost every case, Telegram did it first. So we discuss it all, from the Kafkaesque situation he’s in the midst of France, to the roller coaster of his life and career, to his philosophy on technology, freedom, and the human condition.

  (00:02:15) 顺便说一下，虽然整个对话是英文的，但我们将提供多种语言的字幕和配音音轨，包括俄语、乌克兰语、法语和印地语。在YouTube上，你可以通过点击设置齿轮图标，然后点击音轨，再选择你偏好的语言来切换不同语言的音轨。再次衷心感谢ElevenLabs在翻译和配音方面提供的帮助，以及他们在打破语言所造成的障碍这一更大使命上的贡献。他们确实是我有幸合作过的最卓越的公司之一。这里是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客，要支持我们，请查看描述中的赞助商信息。现在，亲爱的朋友们，有请帕维尔·杜罗夫。

  (00:02:15) And by the way, while this entire conversation is in English, we’ll make captions and voiceover audio tracks available in multiple languages, including Russian, Ukrainian, French, and Hindi. On YouTube, you can switch between language audio tracks by clicking the settings gear icon, then clicking audio track, and then selecting the language you prefer. Huge thank you once again to ElevenLabs for their help with translation and dubbing, and with the bigger mission of breaking down barriers that language creates. They are truly one of the most remarkable companies I’ve ever had the pleasure of working with. This is the Lex Fridman podcast, to support it please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here’s Pavel Durov.

  自由哲学

  Philosophy of freedom

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:03:07) 你多年来一直是自由的倡导者，写道你应该准备好为自由冒一切风险。有哪些影响和见解帮助你形成了这种对人类自由的价值观？

  Lex Fridman (00:03:07) You’ve been an advocate for freedom for many years, writing that you should be ready to risk everything for freedom. What were some influences and insights that help you arrive at this value of human freedom?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:03:21) 我在生命早期就体验到了有自由的社会和没有自由的社会的区别。我四岁时，我的家人从苏联搬到了意大利北部，我可以看到，一个没有自由的社会无法享受丰富的意见、想法、商品和服务。即使对于一个四五岁的孩子来说，这也是显而易见的。在苏联，你无法接触到在意大利能接触到的所有玩具、各种冰淇淋、卡通片。然后我意识到了一些更重要的事情。没有自由，你就无法为这种丰富性做出贡献。在这一点上，对我来说已经非常明显了。

  Pavel Durov (00:03:21) I get to experience the difference between a society with freedom and a society without freedom pretty early in life. I was four years old when my family moved from the Soviet Union to northern Italy, and I could see that a society without freedom cannot enjoy the abundance of opinions, of ideas, of goods and services. Even for a four or five-year-old kid, it was obvious. You can’t experience all the toys, the ice cream of sorts, the cartoons in the Soviet Union that you can access in Italy. And then I got to realize something even more important. You don’t get to contribute to this abundance without freedom. And at this point it was pretty obvious to me.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:04:14) 你还写过”Свобода дороже денег”。翻译过来是，”自由比金钱更重要。” 你如何防止这些对自由的价值观被金钱、有影响力的人、有权势的人所腐蚀？

  Lex Fridman (00:04:14) You also wrote “Свобода дороже денег”. It translates to, “Freedom matters more than money.” How do you prevent these values for freedom, being corrupted by money, by people with influence, by people with power?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:04:29) 嗯，自由最大的敌人是恐惧和贪婪，所以你要确保它们不挡你的路。如果你想象一下可能发生在你身上最糟糕的事情，然后让自己坦然接受它，那就没有什么好害怕的了。所以你坚守立场，并记住，按照你所信仰的原则生活是值得的，即使这样的生命可能比活在奴役中的更长生命要短暂。

  Pavel Durov (00:04:29) Well, the biggest enemies of freedom are fear and greed, so you make sure that they don’t stand in your way. If you imagine the worst thing that can happen to you and then make yourself be comfortable with it, there is nothing more left to be afraid of. So you stand your ground and you remember that it’s worth living your life according to the principles that you believe in, even though this life can end up being shorter than a longer life, but lived in slavery.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:05:08) 你思考过自己的 mortality 吗？你想到过死亡吗？

  Lex Fridman (00:05:08) Do you contemplate your mortality? You think about your death?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:05:12) 哦，是的。

  Pavel Durov (00:05:12) Oh yes.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:05:13) 你害怕它吗？

  Lex Fridman (00:05:13) Are you afraid of it?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:05:14) 在某种程度上，你必须违背自我保存的本能，这并不容易。我们都是生物体，天生就害怕死亡。没有人想死，但当你理性地看待它时，你活着，然后你死去。在你的生命中，并不存在你的死亡这件事。一旦你死了，你就停止体验生命。所以你必须问自己这个问题，是值得活在充满对死亡的恐惧中，还是忘记这一点，以一种让你对这种恐惧免疫的方式生活更令人愉悦？同时也要记住死亡是存在的，这样每一天都会算数。

  Pavel Durov (00:05:14) In a way, you have to go against your instinct of self-preservation, and it’s not easy. We are all biological beings, hard-coded to be afraid of death. Nobody wants to die, but when you approach it rationally, you live and then you die. There’s no such thing as your death in your life. You stop experiencing life once you die. So you have to ask yourself this question, is it worth living a life full of fear of death, or it’s much more enjoyable to forget about this and live your life in a way that makes you immune to this fear? At the same time remembering that death exists, so that every day would count.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:06:03) 是的，记住死亡的存在让你深深地感受到你确实拥有的每一个时刻。

  Lex Fridman (00:06:03) Yeah, remembering that death exists makes you deeply feel every moment that you do get.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:06:11) 这就是为什么我喜欢提醒自己我可能在任何一天死去。

  Pavel Durov (00:06:11) That’s why I love reminding myself that I can die any day.

  不喝酒

  No alcohol

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:06:15) 在很多方面，你过着一种相当斯多葛式的生活。我有机会和你共处了几周。在很多方面，你寻求最小化外部世界对你思想的负面影响。你曾写道，”如果你想充分发挥潜力并保持头脑清晰，请远离成瘾物质。我的成功和健康是20多年完全戒除酒精、烟草、咖啡、药片和非法毒品的结果。短期的快乐不值得你付出未来。” 我们来谈谈这其中每一项。酒精。你对此背后的哲学是什么？

  Lex Fridman (00:06:15) In many ways you live a pretty stoic existence. I got a chance to spend a couple of weeks with you. In many ways, you seek to minimize the negative effects of the outside world on your mind. You’ve written, quote, “If you want to reach your full potential and maintain clarity of mind, stay away from addictive substances. My success and health are the result of 20 plus years of complete abstinence from alcohol, tobacco, coffee, pills, and illegal drugs. Short-term pleasure isn’t worth your future.” Let’s talk about each one of these. Alcohol. What’s been your philosophy behind that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:06:57) 这个相当简单。当我11岁时，我的生物化学老师，他给了我一本他写的书，书名叫《天堂的幻觉》，他在书中描述了当你摄入这种或那种物质后，你体内发生的生物和化学过程。它主要涉及非法药物，但酒精也是他涵盖的成瘾物质之一。所以事实证明，当你喝酒时，发生的事情是你的脑细胞变得麻痹。它们真的变成了僵尸。然后第二天，聚会结束后某个时候，你的一些脑细胞会死亡，再也无法恢复正常。所以想想看。如果你的大脑是你在通往成功和幸福旅程中拥有的最宝贵工具，你为什么要为了短期快乐而摧毁这个工具呢？这听起来很荒谬。

  Pavel Durov (00:06:57) That one is quite easy. When I was 11 years old, my biochemistry teacher, he gave me this book he wrote, it was called The Illusion of Paradise, and there he would describe the biological and chemical processes that happen in your body once you consume this or that substance. It was mainly related to illegal drugs, but alcohol was one of these addictive substances that he covered. So it turns out that when you drink alcohol, the thing that happens is that your brain cells become paralyzed. They become literally zombies. And then next day, sometime after the party is over, some of your brain cells die and never get to normal. So think about this. If your brain is this most valuable tool you have in your journey to success and happiness, why would you destroy this tool for short-term pleasure? This sounds ridiculous.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:08:06) 是的，在很多方面，它是一种我们让进入身体的毒药。但是，作为建议，对于那些考虑不喝酒的人，你会给他们什么建议？很多人使用酒精来使他们能够拥有充满活力的社交生活。在聚会上，来自社会的压力很大，要他们喝酒以便社交。所以你会给他们什么建议，给那些想象没有酒精的社交生活的人？

  Lex Fridman (00:08:06) Yeah, in many ways it’s a poison we’re letting in our body. But by way of advice, what advice would you give to people who consider not drinking? A lot of people use alcohol to enable them to have a vibrant social life. There’s a lot of pressure from society at a party to drink so they can socialize. So what advice would you give to them, to people who imagine having a social life without alcohol?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:08:37) 嗯，首先，不要害怕逆向而行。设定你自己的规则。其次，如果你觉得需要喝酒，那一定是你试图掩盖某个问题。有某个恐惧你还没有准备好面对，你必须解决这个恐惧。如果有一个你害怕接近的漂亮女孩，消除这种恐惧，去接近她，练习。一次又一次地做，这很老套，但这个建议有效。

  Pavel Durov (00:08:37) Well, first of all, don’t be afraid to be contrarian. Set your own rules. Secondly, if you feel you need to drink, there must be some problem you’re trying to conceal. There’s some theory you’re not ready to confront, and you have to address this fear. If there is a good-looking girl you’re afraid to approach, get rid of this fear, approach her, practice. Do it again and again, it’s pretty banal, but this advice works.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:09:11) 解决根本问题，这通常在最底层，总是恐惧。在这方面努力。

  Lex Fridman (00:09:11) Fix the underlying problem, which is usually at the very bottom, is always going to be fear. Work on that.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:09:17) 而且很多时候，人们试图用酒精逃避他们生活中的某些东西。他们试图逃避什么？是什么问题？你必须追根究底。你的思想试图告诉你一些有价值的东西，而你非但没有直接解决它，反而用酒精淹没它，酒精是一种精神止痛药，但只能暂时起作用，然后你必须连本带利地偿还。

  Pavel Durov (00:09:17) And very often people are trying to escape something in their lives with alcohol. What is it they’re trying to escape? What is this problem? You have to get to the bottom of it. Your mind is trying to tell you something valuable, and instead of addressing it directly, you are flooding it in alcohol, which is a spiritual painkiller, but works only temporarily and then you have to pay the debt with interest.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:09:51) 那你怎么做？我的意思是，你参加过很多聚会，很多派对。说”不”有什么挑战吗？

  Lex Fridman (00:09:51) So what do you do? I mean, you’ve been in a lot of gatherings, a lot of parties. Is there some challenges to saying no?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:09:58) 对我来说，完全没有。当我感觉某事不对时，我总是准备好坚持立场并说不。而且，我们人类是多么容易受到我们认为是多数意见的影响，这是非同寻常的。因为自远古时代，自百万年前起，没有人想被部落排斥。我们害怕我们不再被接受，这在数千百万年前意味着我们会饿死。所以我们必须有意识地对抗这种倾向于同意多数人强加给你的一切的倾向，因为很明显，多数人参与的许多事情、许多活动并不会给你带来任何好处。

  Pavel Durov (00:09:58) For me, not at all. I’ve been always ready to stand my ground and say no when I feel something’s not right. And it’s extraordinary how easily we humans are affected by what we perceive as a majority. Because nobody since ancient times, since million years ago wants to be left out by the tribe. We are scared that we won’t become accepted anymore, which thousands of millions of years ago meant we’re going to starve to death. So we have to consciously fight this inclination to be agreeable with everything that the majority imposes on you because it’s quite clear that many things that the majority, many activities the majority is engaging in are not bringing you any good.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:11:03) 所以那是另一个你必须面对的恐惧，去参加一个派对，以及害怕在那个派对上成为被排斥者，害怕在那个派对上、在那个社交聚会上与他人不同。在人群中，要与众不同。那是一种恐惧。

  Lex Fridman (00:11:03) So that’s another fear you have to face, going into a party and the fear of being the outcast at that party, of being different than others at that party, at that social gathering. In the crowd of humans, be different. That’s a fear.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:11:17) 那是一种恐惧。如果你仔细想想，这是相当非理性的。这在20,000年前很有意义。但在今天毫无意义，因为如果你想想，如果你做周围其他每个人都在做的事情，你没有任何竞争优势，你也无法在你生命的某个时刻变得出众。

  Pavel Durov (00:11:17) That’s a fear. And it’s quite irrational if you think about it. It was something that made a lot of sense 20,000 years ago. It makes zero sense today because if you think about it, if you do the same thing everybody else around you is doing, you don’t have any competitive advantage and you don’t get to become outstanding at some point in your life.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:11:45) 是的，这是我们谈到的建议之一，如果你想在生活中成功，你就要与众不同。

  Lex Fridman (00:11:45) Yeah, that’s one of the things we talked about by way of advice is, if you want to be successful in life, you want to be different.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:11:55) 当然。

  Pavel Durov (00:11:55) Definitely.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:11:56) 也许，我想你说过你想在一个细分领域达到精通。所以找到一个你可以全力以赴并达到精通的细分领域，并且这个细分领域与任何其他人正在做的任何事情都不同。你能再解释一下吗？

  Lex Fridman (00:11:56) And perhaps, I think you said you want to achieve mastery at a niche. So find a niche at which you can pursue with all your effort and achieve mastery, and the niche being different than anything that anybody else is doing. Can you explain that a little bit more?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:12:13) 所以很明显，为了对你所在的社会、对你所居住国家的经济做出贡献，你必须做一些有价值的事情。但如果你在做其他每个人都在做的事情，那它的价值是什么？现在说起来比做起来容易，去做别人没做过的事，因为我们人类被各种信息包围，这使我们想要复制我们感知到的东西。同时，有那么多你可以探索的领域，它们与你日常接收到的信息毫无关系。所以，精心筛选你的信息来源是极其重要的，这样你就不会成为受基于人工智能的算法信息流摆布的人，它告诉你什么是重要的，以至于你最终消费着与其他人相同的信息、相同的东西、相同的模因、相同的新闻。

  Pavel Durov (00:12:13) So obviously in order to contribute to the society you’re in, to the economy of the country you live in, you have to do something that is valuable. But if you’re doing something that everybody else is doing anyway, what’s the value of it? Now it sounds easier than it is done, to do something that nobody else is doing, because we humans are surrounded by all kinds of information, which makes us want to copy what we’re perceiving. At the same time, there are so many areas which you can explore, that have nothing to do with the information you receive on the daily basis. So it’s extremely important to curate the information sources that you have, so that you wouldn’t be somebody who is left to the will of AI-based algorithmic feed telling you what’s important so that you end up consuming the same information, the same stuff, the same memes, the same news as everybody else.

  (00:13:24) 相反，你应该积极主动。你应该有意识地设定一个目标，一个你想要探索的领域，然后主动搜索与这个领域相关的信息，这样有一天你就能成为这个领域的世界头号专家。这样做并不难。你只需要保持一致性，因为没有其他人试图这样做。其他每个人都只是在阅读相同的新闻，每天讨论相同的新闻。但这样他们无法获得竞争优势。

  (00:13:24) But rather you should be proactive. You should deliberately try to set a goal, an area that you want to explore, and then actively search information that is relevant to this field, so that one day you can become the world’s number one expert in this field. And it’s not that difficult to do that. You have to just remain consistent because nobody else is trying to do that. Everybody else is just reading the same news and discussing the same news every day. But this way they don’t get to have a competitive advantage.

  不用手机

  No phone

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:14:08) 是的，大多数人口成为人工智能驱动的推荐系统的奴隶，所以每个人被喂食的内容是相同的，我们都变得一样。关于这一点，你做的其中一件不同的事情是，你不使用手机，除了偶尔测试Telegram功能，但我和你在一起两周了，我从未见过你以大多数人使用手机的方式使用手机，比如用于他们的社交媒体。那么你能描述一下你背后的哲学吗？

  Lex Fridman (00:14:08) Yeah, majority of the population becomes slaves to the AI-driven recommender systems, and so the content everybody’s fed is the same thing and we all become the same. On that point, one of the different things you do is, you don’t use a phone except occasionally to test Telegram features, but I’ve been with you for two weeks, I haven’t seen you use a phone at all in the way that most people use a phone, like for their social media. So can you describe your philosophy behind that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:14:40) 我不认为手机是必要的设备。我记得我成长过程中没有手机。当我上大学时，我没有手机。当我最终开始使用手机时，我从不使用电话功能。我总是开着飞行模式或静音。我讨厌被打扰的想法。我这里的哲学很简单，我想定义我生活中什么是重要的。我不想要其他人或公司，各种组织告诉我今天什么是重要的，我应该思考什么。只需设定你自己的议程，而手机会妨碍你。

  Pavel Durov (00:14:40) I don’t think a phone is a necessary device. I remember growing up, I didn’t have a mobile phone. When I was a student at the university, I didn’t have a mobile phone. When I finally got to use a mobile phone, I never used phone calls. I was always in airplane mode or mute. I hated the idea of being disturbed. My philosophy here is pretty simple, I want to define what is important in my life. I don’t want other people or companies, all kinds of organizations telling me what is important today, and what I should be thinking about. Just set up your own agenda and the phone gets in your way.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:15:40) 它提供干扰，它引导你应该看什么，你将会看什么。所以你不想要那样。你想让头脑安静下来。你想选择让什么样的东西进入你的头脑。

  Lex Fridman (00:15:40) It provides distractions, it guides what you should be looking at, what you will be looking at. So you don’t want that. You want to quiet the mind. You want to choose what kind of stuff you let inside your mind.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:15:55) 是的，因为这样我可以为社会进步做出贡献。或者至少我喜欢这样想，这让我更快乐。

  Pavel Durov (00:15:55) Yes, because this way I can contribute to the progress of society. Or at least I like to think this way and this makes me happier.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:16:03) 你多久能找到安静的时间，只是思考和专注于工作，没有任何干扰？你向我提到过你重视安静的早晨。

  Lex Fridman (00:16:03) How often do you find quiet time to just think and focus deeply on work without any distractions? You mentioned to me that you value quiet mornings.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:16:13) 是的。所以我尝试做的事情是，我尽量分配尽可能多的时间用于睡眠。现在，即使我分配了比如11或12小时用于睡眠，我也不会睡11或12小时。所以我最终做的是，我最终躺在床上思考。有些人不喜欢这样。他们说，”嗯，你得吃安眠药，”但我从不吃药。我喜欢这些时刻。我得到了很多绝妙的想法，或者至少在当时它们对我来说似乎很绝妙，当我躺在床上时，无论是在深夜还是在清晨。那是我一天中最喜欢的时间。有时我醒来，去洗个澡，仍然不用手机。

  Pavel Durov (00:16:13) Yes. So the thing I’m trying to do, I try to allocate as much time as possible for sleep. Now, even if I allocate say 11 or 12 hours for sleep, I won’t sleep for 11 or 12 hours. So what I end up doing is, I end up lying in bed thinking. And some people hate it. They say, “Well, you have to take a sleeping pill,” but I never take pills. I love these moments. I get so many brilliant ideas, or at least they seem brilliant to me at the moment, while I’m lying in bed, either late in the evening or early in the morning. That’s my favorite time of the day. Sometimes I wake up, I go take a shower, still without a phone.

  (00:17:03) 美好的想法可以在你做晨练、进行早晨常规活动而不用手机时来到你身边。如果你早上第一件事就是打开手机，你最终会变成一个被告知在一天剩下的时间里该思考什么的生物。在某种程度上，如果你深夜一直在消费社交媒体的新闻，情况也是一样。但那样的话，你如何定义什么是重要的，以及你真正想成为什么样的人呢？现在，我不是说你必须完全远离所有信息来源，但要花些时间思考什么对你真正重要，以及你想在这个世界上改变什么。

  (00:17:03) Beautiful ideas can come to you while you’re doing your morning exercise, your morning routine without a phone. If you open your phone first thing in the morning, what you end up being is a creature that is told what to think about for the rest of the day. Same is true in a way if you’ve been consuming news from social media late at night. But then how do you define what is important and what you really want to become in life? Now, I’m not saying you have to completely stay away from all sources of information, but take some time to think about what’s really important for you and what you want to change in this world.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:17:51) 所以你肯定试图在早上尽可能多地避免使用电子设备，只是为了有安静的思考时间，再加上疯狂数量的俯卧撑和深蹲？

  Lex Fridman (00:17:51) So you definitely try to avoid digital devices for as many hours as possible in the morning, just to have the quiet thinking time, plus the crazy amounts of push-ups and squats?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:18:02) 我知道这有违直觉，因为我创立了世界上最大的社交网络之一，之后又创立了世界第二大通讯应用。按理说你应该真的保持连接，但你很早就得出的结论是，你连接得越多、越容易联系到，你的效率就越低。然后，如果你不断地被各种信息轰炸，其中大部分与你试图构建的事业的成功无关，你又如何能运营这个东西呢？整个世界可能着迷于世界上最富有的人和世界上最有权势的人之间的争吵、争执。但对于绝大多数关注这个传奇故事的人来说，这是无关紧要的。它不会改变他们的生活，而且无论如何，他们无法影响它，所以有点毫无意义。当然，有些人从事的活动要求他们了解正在发生的一切，但99%的人不是。

  Pavel Durov (00:18:02) I know it’s counterintuitive because I founded one of the largest social networks in the world, after which I founded the second-largest messaging app in the world. And you’re supposed to be really connected, but the conclusion you reach very early is that the more connected and accessible you are, the less productive you are. And then how can you run this thing if you’re constantly bombarded by all kinds of information, most of which is irrelevant to the success of what you’re trying to build? The entire world can be fascinated by a fight, a quarrel between the world’s richest man and the world’s most powerful man. But for the vast majority of these people following this saga, it’s irrelevant. It won’t change their lives, and in any case, they can’t affect it, so it’s a bit pointless. Of course, there are people who are engaged in activities that require them to be up-to-date of everything that’s going on, but 99% of people aren’t.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:19:19) 是的，互联网、社交媒体以这样一种方式向我们呈现戏剧性事件，让我们认为这是世界上最大的事情，是最重要的事情，历史的潮流将因此而转向。但实际上，大多数事情不会改变历史的潮流。所以我想我们的挑战是弄清楚什么是永恒的东西？什么是今天正在发生、并且在10年、20年后仍然正确的事情？并由此决定你要做什么。这在社交媒体上非常困难，因为每个人都很愤怒。当天的新闻，无论争吵是什么，那就是每个人都认为世界会因此终结的事情，然后第二天又发生了另一件事。

  Lex Fridman (00:19:19) Yeah, the internet, social media presents to us drama in such a way that we think it’s the biggest thing in the world, the most important thing in which the tides of history will turn. But in reality, most things will not turn the tides of history. And so I guess our challenge is to figure out what is the timeless thing? What is the thing that’s happening today that’s still going to be true in 10, 20 years? And from that, decide what you’re going to do. And that’s very difficult on social media because everybody’s outraged. The news of the day, whatever the quarrel is, that’s the thing that everyone thinks the world will end because of this thing, and then another thing happens the next day.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:20:04) 而且他们试图影响你的情绪。

  Pavel Durov (00:20:04) And they’re trying to influence your emotions.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:20:07) 是的。

  Lex Fridman (00:20:07) Yeah.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:20:08) 这就是你陷入麻烦的方式，因为你可能被迫做出不符合你最佳利益的结论。

  Pavel Durov (00:20:08) And that’s how you get into trouble because you can be forced to make conclusions that are not in your best interest.

  纪律

  Discipline

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:20:17) 我见过你，再次强调，对你的情绪相当斯多葛。你曾经生气过吗？你曾经感到孤独吗？你曾经悲伤过吗？人类情感的过山车，当你做艰难决定时，你如何处理这些情绪？

  Lex Fridman (00:20:17) I’ve seen you be, once again, quite stoic about your emotions. You ever get angry? You ever get lonely? You ever get sad? The roller coaster of human emotion, and what do you do with that when you make difficult decisions?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:20:31) 我和其他每个人一样都是人类。我确实会体验到情绪。其中一些并不令人愉快，但我相信，我们每个人都有责任应对这些情绪，并学会克服它们。自律尤其重要，因为没有它，你如何克服这种看似无尽的消极或绝望循环，这种循环最终导致一些人抑郁？我通常从不抑郁。我不记得在过去20年里至少有过抑郁。也许我青少年时期有过。但其中一个原因是，我开始做事。

  Pavel Durov (00:20:31) I’m a human being like everybody else. I do get to experience emotions. Some of them are not very pleasant, but I believe that it’s the responsibility of every one of us to cope with these emotions and to learn to work through them. Self-discipline is particularly important because without it, how can you overcome this seemingly endless loop of negativity or despair that ultimately leads to depression for some people? I normally never have depression. I don’t remember having depression in the last 20 years, at least. Maybe when I was a teenager. But one of the reasons for that is I start doing things.

  (00:21:25) 我识别问题，我能看到一个解决方案，然后我开始执行策略。如果你陷入担心某事的循环中，什么都不会改变。人们经常犯这个错误，想着，”哦，我应该休息一下，然后恢复精力。”事情不是这样的。你通过做某事来获得能量，所以你开始做某事，然后它发生了，你感到有动力，你感到受到启发。然后最终你做别的事，多一点，再多一点。然后几年后，谁知道呢？你最终可能取得伟大的成就。

  (00:21:25) I identify the problem, I can see a solution, and I start executing the strategy. If you are stuck in this loop of being worried about something, nothing’s ever going to change. And people often make this mistake thinking, “Oh, I should just have some rest and then regain energy.” This is not how it works. You gain energy by doing something, so you start doing something, then it happens, you feel motivated, you feel inspired. And then ultimately you do something else, a little bit more, a little bit more. And then a few years, who know? You may end up achieving great things.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:22:12) 是的，这就是人们困惑的地方。如果你陷入抑郁循环，即使当你真的、真的、真的、真的什么都不想做的时候，也要去做点什么。努力取得进展，因为好的感觉会在那之后到来。关键是先做后感觉，而不是先感觉后做。

  Lex Fridman (00:22:12) Yeah, that’s the thing that people are confused. If you’re stuck in a depressive cycle, even when you really, really, really, really don’t want to do anything, to do something. Try to make progress because the good feeling comes on the end of that. The whole point is to do first and then feel, not feel and then do.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:22:33) 完全正确。去健身房就是一个好例子。有很多天你不想开始锻炼，但你必须克服最初的不情愿，然后你会达到一个享受它的点，你会想，”哦，天哪，今天来健身房真是个好主意。”但这几乎适用于所有活动。你开始写一些代码，先写一小段代码，然后你受到启发。然后你会想出更多主意。你需要写一部小说或者只是写一段。这很明显，也不是秘密，但因为我们都受到各种信息的轰炸，这些信息对于让我们成功来说并不真正重要，我们常常忘记了重要的事情，而这就是其中之一。

  Pavel Durov (00:22:33) Exactly. And going to the gym is a good example. There are many days when you don’t want to start working out, but you have to overcome this initial reluctance, and then you get to a point that you enjoy it and you think, “Oh my God, it was such a good idea to come to the gym today.” But it’s similar to pretty much every activity. You get to write some code, write a small piece of code first, and then you get inspired. Then you’ll come up with more ideas. You need to write a novel or just write the paragraph. This is pretty obvious and it’s not a secret, but because we are bombarded with all kinds of information, that is not really important for us in terms of becoming successful, we often forget the important things, and this is one of them.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:23:32) 我们每天都在锻炼。你已经高强度锻炼了很多年，所以我想很多人会想知道你完美的每日锻炼计划是什么？比如说每天、每周的？

  Lex Fridman (00:23:32) We’ve been working out every single day. You have been working out for many years pretty intensively, so I think a lot of people would love to know what’s your perfect daily workout regimen? Let’s say on a daily, weekly basis?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:23:50) 我每天早上做300个俯卧撑和300个深蹲。除此之外，我通常每周去健身房五到六次，每天花一到两个小时。

  Pavel Durov (00:23:50) I do 300 push-ups and 300 squats every morning. And in addition to that, I go to the gym normally five, six times a week, spending between one and two hours every day.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:24:04) 所以俯卧撑和深蹲仍然是你日常锻炼的重要组成部分？

  Lex Fridman (00:24:04) So push-ups and squats are still a big part of your routine?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:24:07) 是的，这就是我开始一天的方式。我不确定它们在改变你的身体方面有多大作用，但它们绝对是练习自律的好方法，因为大多数日子里你早上并不想做这些俯卧撑。深蹲尤其无聊。它们没那么难，只是无聊，但你克服了它，然后开始做与工作相关的其他事情就容易多了。例如，当我可以的时候，我也洗冰水浴，因为这是另一项自律的练习。我认为你可以锻炼的主要肌肉是这块肌肉，自律的肌肉。不是你的二头肌或胸肌或其他任何部位。因为如果你能训练那块肌肉，其他一切都会随之而来。

  Pavel Durov (00:24:07) Yes, this is how I start my day. I’m not sure they do a lot in terms of changing your body, but they’re definitely a good way to practice self-discipline because you don’t want to do these push-ups in the morning most of the days. Squats are particularly boring. They’re not that hard, they’re just boring, but you overcome it and then it’s much easier to start doing other things related to your work. For example, when I can, I also take an ice bath because it’s another exercise of self-discipline. I think the main muscle you can exercise is this muscle, the muscle of self-discipline. Not your biceps or your pecs or anything else. Because if you get to train that one, everything else just comes by itself.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:25:07) 其他一切都变得容易。我们应该提到，我和你一起去过Banya，我想公平地说，就你能承受的程度而言，你有点疯狂。我甚至还没看到最厉害的部分。你能谈谈你在Banya的疯狂冒险吗，你从中获得什么价值？包括热和冷。

  Lex Fridman (00:25:07) Everything else becomes easy. We should mention, I went with you to Banya, and I think it’s fair to say you’re nuts in terms of how much you can handle. And I didn’t even see the worst of it. Can you just speak to your crazy escapades in the Banya, what value you get from it? So both the heat and the cold.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:25:31) 我不知道这是否疯狂。我认为到现在这个时候这已经很自然和正常了，但也许我只是习惯了。所以Banya是东欧人实践的一种极端的桑拿，但它的做法是最大化热量，他们还使用各种草药和树枝，这是一种更全面、更自然的体验。然后必要的部分是，你进行冷水浸泡，然后再回去。再次强调，这是那些可能在当下并不总是那么愉快的事情之一，特别是如果你去到极端的温度，你感觉并不好。

  Pavel Durov (00:25:31) I don’t know if it’s crazy. I think it’s quite natural and normal by this time, but maybe I just got used to it. So Banya is this extreme kind of sauna practiced by Eastern Europeans, but it is done in a way that maximizes heat and they also use all kind of herbs and branches, and it’s a much more holistic and natural experience. Then the necessary part of it is you get the cold plunge and then you go back. And again, this is one of those things that maybe in the moment it’s not always that pleasant, particularly if you go to extreme temperatures, you don’t feel great.

  (00:26:24) 我并不总是感觉良好，但这种感觉会过去。只有几分钟。冰水浴也是一样。你必须忍受一点痛苦，然后你会在之后几小时甚至几天内感觉棒极了。更重要的是，它能给你带来长期的健康益处。在某种程度上，你可以把它看作是反向的酒精。酒精会给你短暂的、转瞬即逝的快乐，持续一小时，几小时，但之后你将付出长期的负面后果作为代价。我宁愿选择Banya和冰水浴。

  (00:26:24) I don’t always feel great, but this feeling is passing. It’s only a few minutes. Same with the ice bath. You have to suffer a bit and then you get to feel great for hours and days after. What’s more, it gives you this long-term health benefits. In a way you can look at it as alcohol in reverse. Alcohol will give you this short, fleeting pleasure for an hour, for a couple of hours, but then you will be paying for it with long-term negative consequences. I’d rather do Banya and ice bath.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:27:09) 我们在法国几次游过一个大湖的长度。你能谈谈你为什么重视这些多小时的游泳吗？

  Lex Fridman (00:27:09) We swam the length of a large lake in France a couple times. Can you talk through why you value these multi-hour swims?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:27:17) 是的。我喜欢游泳几个小时。我游得最长的一次是在芬兰，五个半小时。水很冷。我在过程中迷路了，几乎找不到回去的路。但我这样做的原因，是的，之后你感觉棒极了。你有点发抖，之后感觉棒极了。你横渡了一个巨大的湖，我横渡过很多湖，日内瓦湖，苏黎世湖。每次你都能感受到这种成就感，这让你快乐，让你感到强大，然后你更准备好去应对其他挑战。当然，当你知道你将开始一段持续几个小时的旅程时，你是不情愿去做的。但你游了10分钟，然后20分钟，然后30分钟，它教会你这种令人难以置信的耐心，我认为如果你想在生活中取得任何成就，这种耐心是必要的。

  Pavel Durov (00:27:17) Yeah. I love swimming for hours. The longest I swam was five and a half hours in Finland. It was quite cold. I got lost in the process, barely could find my way back. But the reason I do it, yes, you feel great after. You’re shaking a little bit, you feel great after. You cross a huge lake, and I cross many lakes, Geneva Lake, Zurich Lake. And every time you feel this achievement, which makes you happy, makes you feel strong, and then you’re more ready to do other challenges. And of course, when you know you’re going to start a journey that will last a few hours, you are reluctant to do it. But you swim for 10 minutes and then for 20 minutes and then for 30 minutes, and it teaches you this incredible patience that I think is necessary if you want to achieve anything in life.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:28:23) 而且它很冥想，湖 vs 海洋。

  Lex Fridman (00:28:23) And it’s pretty meditative, lake versus ocean.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:28:27) 是的。而且你不必游得太快。你可以慢下来，享受当下。

  Pavel Durov (00:28:27) Yes. And you don’t have to go too fast. You can be slow and enjoy the moment.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:28:33) 直到你迷路了，游了五个半小时。你会恐慌吗，如果你要能找到岸，找到出路？

  Lex Fridman (00:28:33) Until you get lost and it’s five and a half hours. Would you panic, if you’re going to be able to find the shore, find your way out?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:28:39) 不会真的，我是一个相当抗压的人。那一刻我没有恐慌。而且我有过更糟糕的游泳经历，时间更短，但涉及事故，你知道其中一些。所以那远不是最糟的。但关于游泳和体育活动的一个重要之处在于，它使你的头脑清晰，你的思维过程变得更有效率。因为在一天结束时，我们大脑的效率受限于我们的心脏能通过血液向大脑输送多少糖和氧气。你如何让这个过程更快？或者你如何让你的肺部更有效率？你如何让你的心脏在做这件事上更有效率？

  Pavel Durov (00:28:39) Not really, I’m a reasonably stress-resilient person. I didn’t panic at that moment. And there were worse swims I had that were shorter, but involved accidents and you know about some of them. So that wasn’t the worst by far. But an important thing about swimming and physical activity in general is that it makes your mind clear and your thinking process is becoming more efficient. Because at the end of the day, the efficiency of our brain is limited by how much sugar and oxygen our heart can push through blood to our brain though. How can you make this go faster or how do you make your lungs more efficient? How do you make your heart more efficient in doing that?

  (00:29:33) 体育活动是我所知道的唯一方法。所以这不仅仅是保持健康或试图看起来好看，它也是关于提高效率。它也是关于抗压能力。所有这些品质都是必要的，如果你想运营一家大公司，如果你想创办一家公司。我惊讶的是，当我十多年前开始这样做时，更多的CEO没有参与体育运动。这种情况在过去几年发生了变化，这很好。因为回溯到20年前，有一种刻板印象，如果你很强壮，你一定不太聪明，反之亦然。这完全是荒谬的。很多时候这两者是相辅相成的。

  (00:29:33) Physical activity is the only way I know of. So it’s not just staying healthy or trying to look good, it’s also being productive. It’s also being stress resilient. All of these qualities are necessary if you want to run a large company, if you want to start a company. I’m surprised when I started doing this more than 10 years ago, that more CEOs didn’t engage in sports. The situation changed in the last several years, which is great. Because back in the day, if you take 20 years ago, there was this stereotype that if you are strong, you must be not very smart and vice versa. Which is a complete lunacy. Very often these two things go together.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:30:34) 所以对你来说，锻炼不仅仅是为了保持健康，它实际上对你作为技术领导者、工程师、技术专家所做的工作很有价值。

  Lex Fridman (00:30:34) So for you working out is not just about staying healthy, it’s actually valuable for the work that you do as a tech leader, as an engineer, as a technologist.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:30:43) 哦，是的。当我不能锻炼时，我能立刻感觉到压力正在向我袭来。所以即使在受限制的情况下，我不能去健身房，我也会继续做俯卧撑。我只是继续做深蹲。

  Pavel Durov (00:30:43) Oh yes. When I can’t train, I can instantly feel that stress is creeping on me. So even in situations when I’m constrained, I can’t go to the gym, I would just keep doing push-ups. I just keep doing squats.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:31:06) 是的，我的意思是，自重锻炼的好处就在于此。你可以在任何地方做。你可以在开会前突然做50个、100个俯卧撑。

  Lex Fridman (00:31:06) Yeah, I mean that’s the cool thing about body weight exercise. You could just do it anywhere. You could just pop off 50, 100 push-ups before a meeting.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:31:16) 如果一天没有体育活动，你不会觉得不对劲吗？

  Pavel Durov (00:31:16) Don’t you feel weird when you have a day without physical activity?

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:31:21) 是的。如果我一天不做俯卧撑，至少是最低限度的，那这一天就很糟糕。

  Lex Fridman (00:31:21) Yeah. If I go a day without doing push-ups, at the very minimum, it’s a shitty day.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:31:27) 如果你能做引体向上，那就更好了。

  Pavel Durov (00:31:27) And if you can do pull-ups, it’s even better.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:31:30) 是的。我还得问问你的饮食。不摄入加工糖，不吃快餐，不喝苏打水。间歇性禁食，有时一天只吃一顿，有时一天吃几顿。那么跟我讲讲你关于不吃糖、不喝苏打水、只吃健康食物的哲学。

  Lex Fridman (00:31:30) Yeah. I got to ask you about your diet too. No processed sugar, no fast food, no soda. Intermittent fasting, sometimes once a day only, sometimes a couple times a day. So take me through your philosophy on the no sugar, no soda, just clean food.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:31:47) 嗯，糖很简单，因为它容易上瘾。你消耗的糖越多，你就越想要它，你就越饿。所以如果你想保持高效和健康，为什么要消耗加工糖呢？你最终只会一直吃零食。间歇性禁食。所以每天只在6小时内进食，18小时不进食，这也会给你的日子和饮食习惯带来结构。这样你就不再渴望糖了，因为你知道如果你吃了糖，然后又不能吃零食，你只是在惩罚自己。我读过几本关于长寿的书。我想大家都同意的一点是，糖是有害的。

  Pavel Durov (00:31:47) Well, sugar is pretty easy because it’s addictive. The more you consume sugar, the more you want it, the hungrier you get. So if you want to stay efficient and healthy, why consume processed sugar? You’ll just end up snacking all the time. Intermittent fasting. So eating only within six hours and not eating for 18 hours every day also brings structure into your day and into your eating habits. So you don’t crave sugar anymore because you know if you eat sugar and then you’re unable to snack, you’re just punishing yourself. I read a few books on longevity. I think something everybody agrees on is that sugar is harmful.

  (00:32:48) 不，我对糖并不极端。你可以吃浆果、水果，如果你觉得你的身体需要它，但认为有必要吃甜食是不对的。对儿童不是，对成人也不是。红肉，我大约20年前就停止吃了，因为每次吃完我都觉得身体沉重。所以我猜这是因人而异的。是我的新陈代谢。我的消化系统不同意这种食物。所以我通常吃各种海鲜和蔬菜。这是我卡路里的基本来源。

  (00:32:48) No, I’m not militant about sugar. You can eat berries, fruit, if you feel your body needs it, but it’s not true to think it’s necessary to consume sweet things. Not for children, not for adults. Red meat, I stopped eating it about 20 years ago because I just felt heavy every time I had it. So I guess it’s individual. It’s my metabolism. My digestive system isn’t agreeing with this kind of food. So I normally eat seafood of all kinds and vegetables. This is the basic source of calories for me.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:33:37) 是的，就像所有事情一样，你说过，”短期的快乐不值得你付出未来。”所以很多事情我们都知道，酒精对身体有害。烟草、药片、加工食品、糖，但社会把这些强加给你，使得避免它们非常困难。所以我想这一切都归结为自律。

  Lex Fridman (00:33:37) Yeah, and like all things, you said, “Short-term pleasure isn’t worth your future.” So a lot of things we all know, that alcohol is destructive to the body. Tobacco, pills, processed food, sugar, but society puts that on you, makes it very difficult to avoid. So I guess it all boils down to just discipline.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:33:56) 是的，并且试图识别你正在经历的问题的真正原因。如果你正在经历头痛，一种解决方案是吃一片药，然后头痛就消失了。这片药实际上在大多数情况下会做什么，它会消除后果，你的疼痛感。它是一种止痛药。它不会消除根本原因。所以你必须问自己，”是什么导致了这种头痛？我需要喝点水吗？这里的空气质量不好吗？我需要开始多睡点觉吗？我周围的人有什么问题吗？他们在给我压力。”一定有什么原因导致你经历头痛。但如果你吃药，你并没有消除这个原因，你实际上是在让它变得更糟，因为这个有害因素仍然存在。这就像你-

  Pavel Durov (00:33:56) Yes, and trying to identify the real cause of an issue you’re experiencing. If you’re experiencing a headache, one solution would be to take a pill and then the headache disappears. What this pill would actually do, in most cases, it would mute the consequence, your feeling of pain. It’s a painkiller. It will not eliminate the root cause. So you have to ask yourself, ” What is it that’s causing this headache? Do I need to drink some water? Is the air quality here bad? Do I need to start getting more sleep? Is there something wrong with people around me? They’re stressing me out.” There must be some reason why you’re experiencing a headache. But if you take a pill, you’re not removing this reason, you’re actually making it worse because this harmful factor is still there. It’s like you’re-

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:35:00) 有害因素仍然存在。这就像你在驾驶一架直升机，有一些红色信号，红灯开始闪烁，并开始产生糟糕的、令人不快的噪音。你会怎么做？你会试着找出原因并消除它。也许你旁边有座山，你必须避开它，或者你拿把锤子砸碎信号灯。我认为答案很明显。那么，为什么我们还在不断地这样做呢？哦，因为其他每个人都这样做。因为有一个完整的行业试图说服你这样做是对的。所以，分析自己并试图追根究底是极其重要的。

  Pavel Durov (00:35:00) Full factor is still there. It’s like you’re piloting a helicopter and there is some red signals and red lamp starts to blink and it starts producing bad, unpleasant noise. What would you do? You would try to figure out the cause and eliminate it. Maybe there is some mountain next to you and you have to avoid it, or you take a hammer and smash the signal. I think the answer is quite obvious. So, why are we constantly doing this regardless? Oh, because everybody else is doing it. Because there’s a whole industry trying to persuade you that this is the right thing to do. So, it’s incredibly important to analyze yourself and try to get to the bottom of things.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:35:48) 所以你通常尽量避免所有药片，所有医药产品？

  Lex Fridman (00:35:48) So you generally try to avoid all pills, all pharmaceutical products?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:35:53) 是的。自从我成年后，我就一直远离所有那些东西。当你是个青少年时，你妈妈通常会说，”我们需要吃这片药，否则世界就崩溃了。”一旦我长大成人，我说，”不，我认为药片生产商的激励方式不对。他们并不是真的对消除问题的根源感兴趣。”他们宁愿让我依赖他们生产的药片，这样我就可以永远购买它们。不，我并不是说你永远不应该吃药。显然有些疾病你只能用抗生素来对抗，例如。所以，我不是建议我们回到中世纪，但我想说的是我们过度使用药片。

  Pavel Durov (00:35:53) Yes. I’ve been staying away from all of that since I became an adult. When you’re a teenager, your mom would typically say, “We need to take this pill, otherwise the world collapses.” Once I became a grown-up, I said, “No, I don’t think that the producers of pill are incentivized in the right way. They’re not really interested in eliminating the root of the problem.” They would rather have me dependent on the pills they’re producing so that I could buy them forever. No, I’m not saying that you should never take pills. There are obviously some diseases that you can only fight with antibiotics, for example. So, I’m not suggesting we go back to the Middle Ages, but what I’m saying is we overuse pills.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:36:59) 是的，总是好的去研究并深入理解世界运作所基于的激励机制，这样你就不会被在这些激励下运作的力量卷走。大型制药公司当然是其中之一。制药公司有巨大的动力让问题持续下去，而不是解决问题。这是明智的。

  Lex Fridman (00:36:59) Yeah, it’s always good to study and deeply understand the incentives under which the world operates so that you don’t get swept up into the forces that operate under these incentives. Big Pharma is certainly one of them. Pharmaceutical companies have a huge incentive to keep the problem going versus solving the problem. It’s wise.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:37:19) 这是我每天都在实践的事情。我读到一些新闻，然后问自己，”谁从阅读这些信息中受益？”然后你最终可能得出这样的结论：也许我们新闻中读到的95%的东西被撰写和出版，是因为有人想让你购买某种产品，支持某种政治事业，打某场战争，捐赠一些钱。让我们做一些有利于他人的事情。支持你真正信仰的事业并不是问题，只要这是你 intentional 的选择，并且你不是被操纵去为别人打仗。

  Pavel Durov (00:37:19) This is something I practice every day. I read some piece of news and I ask myself, “Who benefits from me reading this?” Then you can end up coming to this conclusion that maybe 95% of things we read in the news have been written and published because somebody wanted you to buy some product, support some political cause, fight some war, donate some money. Let’s do something that would benefit other people. This is not a problem to support causes that you truly believe in as long as it was your intentional choice and you’re not being manipulated into fighting other people’s wars.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:38:14) 这又把我们带回到我们最初谈论的事情，那就是自由。实现思想自由的方法之一是让你的思想远离那些操纵你的影响和力量。意识到你消费的内容，尤其是在互联网上，其中很大一部分是为了操纵你的思想而设计的，这一点非常重要。你必须断开连接。要非常主动地理解偏见是什么，激励是什么。这样你才能清晰、独立、客观地思考。

  Lex Fridman (00:38:14) And that takes us back to the original thing we started talking about, which is freedom. One of the ways to achieve freedom of thought is to remove your mind from the influences, the forces that manipulate you. That’s really important to realize the content you consume, especially on the internet, when a large percentage of it is designed to manipulate your mind. You have to disconnect yourself. Be very proactive understanding what the biases, what the incentives are. So, you can think clearly, independently, and objectively.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:38:51) 再次强调，这与戒绝酒精有关，因为如果你的头脑模糊不清，你怎么能分析自己呢？你将永远依赖他人的意见。你总是追随主流。然后无论当局或掌权者告诉你什么，你都会相信，因为你没有自己的工具可以依靠来得出自己的结论。

  Pavel Durov (00:38:51) Again, it ties back with restraint from alcohol because if your mind is clouded, how can you analyze yourself? You’ll always be dependent on opinions of others. You always follow the mainstream. And then whatever the authorities or whoever in charge will tell you, you believe it because you don’t have a tool of your own to rely on to come to your own conclusions.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:39:27) 我必须问你，这是出现的一个问题。你不看色情内容。我不认为我以前听你谈过这个。不看色情内容背后的哲学是什么？很多人谈论色情内容总体上对年轻男性有非常负面的影响，影响他们对世界的看法，影响他们性行为的发展以及他们如何建立关系等等。那么，你不消费色情内容的哲学是什么？

  Lex Fridman (00:39:27) I have to ask you, this is something that came up. You don’t watch porn. I don’t think I’ve heard you talk about this before. What’s the philosophy behind not watching porn? There’s a lot of people that talk about porn in general having a very negative effect on young men on their view of the world, on their development of their sexuality and how they get into relationships and all that stuff. So, what’s your philosophy in not consuming porn?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:39:55) 我不看色情内容，因为我觉得它是一种替代品，是真实事物的代用品，在我的生活中没有必要。如果有任何影响，它只是迫使你用一些能量、一些灵感去交换一个短暂的快乐时刻。这没有意义。无论如何，正如我所说，它不是真实的东西。所以，只要你能接触到真实的东西，你就不需要看色情内容。但如果你无法接触到真实的东西，你也不应该看色情内容，因为这意味着你生活中存在某种缺陷，某个你必须克服的问题。

  Pavel Durov (00:39:55) I don’t watch porn because I just feel it’s a surrogate, a substitute for a real thing that is not necessary in my life. If anything, it just forces you to exchange some energy, some inspiration to a fleeting moment of pleasure. It doesn’t make sense. In any case, as I said, it’s not the real thing. So, as long as you can access the real thing, you don’t need to watch porn. But then if you can’t access the real thing, you shouldn’t watch porn as well because it means there’s some deficiency in your life, some problem that you have to overcome.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:40:45) 是的，分析根本原因。再次强调，这回到了投资于长期繁荣 versus 短期快乐的主题。你对待生活的方式有一个主题。

  Lex Fridman (00:40:45) Yeah, analyze the underlying cause. Again, this goes back to the theme of investing in a long-term flourishing versus short-term pleasure. There’s a theme to the way you approach life.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:41:02) 我尽量具有战略性。我尽量基于我不会在一小时内死去并且我会再活一段时间的假设来行动，尽管我们都会死。那么，我为什么要用中期和长期来交换短期呢？这没有任何意义。

  Pavel Durov (00:41:02) I try to be strategic. I try to act under assumption that I’m not going to die in one hour from now and I’m going to stick around for a bit despite the fact that we are all mortal. So, why would I exchange the mid and long term for the short term? It doesn’t make any sense.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:41:23) 快速暂停，洗手间休息。

  Lex Fridman (00:41:23) Quick pause, bathroom break.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:41:24) 好的，我们休息一下。

  Pavel Durov (00:41:24) Yeah, let’s take a break.

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