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• Telegram创始人帕维尔·杜罗夫2025年10月播客实录 | 中英文完整版精译 Part4

  2025-10-23

  LZN

  thinking

  thinking

  书童按：本篇是帕维尔·杜罗夫（Pavel Durov）于2025年10月接受Lex Fridman的播客采访实录，Pavel是端到端加密通信软件Telegram的创始人兼CEO。其采访中涉及精简团队、高度自动化、法国被捕、审查、企业家的困境等话题，精彩绝伦，令人击节称赞。初稿采用AI机器翻译，经自动化中英混排，书童仅做简单校对及批注。原稿中英文混排近7万字，书童将分为Part1-4发出，本篇是最后一部分，以飨诸君。

  

  爱德华·斯诺登

  Edward Snowden

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:49:26) 你提到了爱德华·斯诺登。很久以前，你曾想和他合作，也许是分享专业知识，以全面了解实现网络安全所需的一切。你怎么看待他的案件？你从他揭露的事情中学到了什么教训，也许更广泛地说，你认为他的工作对世界产生了什么影响？

  Lex Fridman (02:49:26) You mentioned Edward Snowden. A long time ago you wanted to work together with him, perhaps to share expertise, to understand the full realm of what it takes to achieve cybersecurity. What do you make of his case? What lessons do you learn from what he has uncovered and maybe even broadly, what impact has his work had on the world, do you think?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:49:53) 嗯，主要的教训是，并非所有事情都像表面看起来那样。你会发现——这是我当时感到相当震惊的一点——许多你认为是安全和密码学专家的人，最终都以某种方式成为了 NSA 的特工，推广有缺陷的加密标准。你最终会发现，那个本应在监视其人民方面受到限制的政府，实际上并不认为自己受到那么多限制。这对世界来说是非常有价值的认识。

  Pavel Durov (02:49:53) Well, the main lesson is not everything is what it seems. You would discover and this is something that I found quite shocking at the time, that a lot of people who you thought were security and cryptography experts ended up being agents of the NSA in one way or the other, promoting flawed encryption standards. You wouldn’t end up discovering that your government that was supposed to be limited in how it can surveil its people, actually doesn’t consider itself that limited. That was very valuable for the world to understand.

  (02:50:50) 我想这也可能是一个教训，表明我们人类没有把握好平衡。9/11 事件造成了一种局面，政府必须做出回应，它确实回应了，但它反应过度了。最终侵蚀了某些基本权利和自由，包括隐私权，因为政府总是想扩大自己的权力，而且政府总是试图以牺牲公民为代价来做到这一点。这就造成了”治疗比疾病本身更糟糕”的情况。我认为爱德华的所作所为非常勇敢。我没能和他合作。不管谁亲眼见到他，我们都保持联系，我们有时会沟通，但我们并不亲近。我仍然认为他的所作所为值得称赞。我希望有一天我们能见面。

  (02:50:50) I guess it also can be a lesson demonstrated that we humans don’t get the balance right. 9/11 created a situation when the government had to respond and it responded, but it overreacted. It ended up eroding certain basic rights and freedoms including the right to privacy because the government always wants to increase its powers and the government always tries to do it at the expense of citizens. You have the situation when the cure is worse than the disease. I think it was incredibly brave to do what Edward did. I didn’t get to work with him. Whoever see him in person, we keep in touch, we sometimes communicate, but we’re not close. I still, I think what he did is laudable. I hope someday we meet.

  情报机构

  Intelligence agencies

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:51:59) 你自己也面对过来自各种政府、情报机构的全力施压。有没有你害怕的情报机构？有没有你害怕的政府？

  Lex Fridman (02:51:59) You yourself have faced the full force of various governments, intelligence agencies. Is there any intelligence agency you’re afraid of? Any government you’re afraid of?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:52:15) 我认为应该同等程度地害怕，或者从某种角度说，同等程度地不害怕。并不是说某个情报机构能杀你，而另一个不能。

  Pavel Durov (02:52:15) I think they should be equally afraid of or equally not afraid of, in a way. It’s not that intelligence services can kill you and the other can’t kill you.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:52:26) 他们都能杀你？

  Lex Fridman (02:52:26) They all can kill you?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:52:27) 我猜他们都能以某种方式杀我，但这取决于我是否害怕死亡。

  Pavel Durov (02:52:27) I guess they all can kill me one way or the other, but it’s a matter of whether I’m afraid of death.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:52:34) 这回到了我们对话的开头，我想，多次提到了。总的来说，你在压力面前是无畏的。

  Lex Fridman (02:52:34) This goes back to the beginning of our conversation, I think, multiple times. You’re in general fearless in the face of the pressure.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:52:42) 这是个非常大胆的说法，但我已经证明自己抗压能力相当强，这并不是说你没有恐惧。你可以有恐惧，但你要克服这种恐惧。我不认为在这一点上，有任何事情能发生并改变我的行事方式。

  Pavel Durov (02:52:42) That would be a very bold statement, but I proved to be quite stress resilient and it’s not that you don’t have fear. You can have fear, but you overcome this fear. I don’t think there is anything at this point that can happen to change the way I am.

  伊朗和俄罗斯的政府压力

  Iran and Russia government pressure

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:53:11) 从 2011 年到 2014 年，你经历了很多，来自政府的压力，你拒绝屈服，这促使你创建了 Telegram 并放弃了 VK。然后在 2018 年，俄罗斯和伊朗决定禁止 Telegram。这是另一个施压的例子。你能带我回顾一下 2018 年的那段经历吗？

  Lex Fridman (02:53:11) You went through a lot from 2011 to 2014, government pressure that you refused to give into, that led you to create Telegram and let go of VK. Then in 2018, Russia and Iran decided to ban Telegram. That was another example of pressure. Can you take me through that saga in 2018?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:53:35) 2018 年，Telegram 开始流行起来。我想我们当时大约有 2 亿用户，并且在伊朗、俄罗斯和其他一些国家越来越受欢迎，这些国家的人们有时需要向政府隐瞒一些事情。在伊朗，人们使用 Telegram 抗议政府。他们拥有这些庞大的频道，用来组织抗议活动，最终政府无法控制。他们决定禁止 Telegram。但人们仍然会使用 VPN 继续使用它。这并没有帮助。政府投入巨资开发自己的通讯应用。他们有几个团队竞争成为国内主导通讯应用的称号。所有这些应用都失败了。人们仍然更喜欢 Telegram。有趣的是，伊朗禁止了 Telegram，但 WhatsApp 却没有被禁。

  Pavel Durov (02:53:35) In 2018 Telegram started to become popular. I think we had something like 200 million users and it increasingly became popular in places like Iran and Russia and other countries where sometimes people have something to hide from the government. In Iran, people use Telegram to protest against the government. They had these huge channels that they would use to organize the protests and eventually the government couldn’t keep up. They decided to ban Telegram. People would still keep using it though using VPNs. It didn’t help. The government invested a lot in coming up with their own messaging app. They had several teams competing for the title of the nationally reigning messaging app. All these apps failed. People still preferred Telegram. Interestingly, Iran banned Telegram, but WhatsApp wasn’t banned.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:55:01) WhatsApp 没有被禁。或者至少他们在不久之后就解除了对 WhatsApp 的禁令。与此同时，从 2017 年中或年底开始，俄罗斯要求 Telegram 向他们交出加密密钥。他们认为这些东西是存在的，某种能让他们读取 Telegram 上每个人，或者至少是俄罗斯境内每个 Telegram 用户信息的东西。我们告诉他们，这是不可能的。如果你们必须禁止我们，那就禁止吧。这就是他们在 2018 年春天最终做的事情。那段时间相当有趣，因为他们试图封锁我们的 IP 地址，但我们对此有所准备，我们开发了这项技术，使我们能够轮换 IP 地址，每当审查机构封锁我们现有的地址时，就用新的地址替换。而且这完全是自动化的。我们拥有数百万个 IP 地址。我们会不断消耗它们。我们发起了一个名为”数字抵抗”的运动，世界各地的系统管理员和工程师，无论是在俄罗斯境内还是境外，都可以建立自己的代理服务器和自己的 IP 地址，供 Telegram 依赖以绕过审查。

  Pavel Durov (02:55:01) WhatsApp wasn’t banned. Or at least they unbanned WhatsApp soon after. At the same time starting in mid-2017 or late-2017, Russia demanded that Telegram hands them the encryption keys. They thought these things exist, something that would allow them to read messages of every person on Telegram or at least every person on Telegram in Russia. And we told them, it’s impossible. If you have to ban us, ban us. And this is what they ended up doing in spring 2018. And that was quite fun because they were trying to block our IP addresses, but we were prepared for that and we came up with this technology that allowed us to rotate IP addresses, replacing them with new ones every time the sensor blocks our existing addresses. And then it was completely automated. We had millions of IP addresses. We would be burning through them. We set up this movement called Digital Resistance when system administrators and engineers all around the world, both inside and outside Russia could set up their own proxy servers and their own IP addresses for Telegram to rely on in order to bypass censorship.

  苹果公司

  Apple

  (02:56:41) 我们最终为此花费了，我想，数百万美元。结果，那里的审查机构快疯了。他们会封锁 IP 地址和大型 IP 地址子网，巨大的子网，这导致了一个奇怪的情况：该国部分基础设施开始瘫痪。人们试图在超市支付购物款，但什么都用不了，因为俄罗斯的审查机构封锁了太多 IP 地址，而其中一些子网被用于托管其他不相关的服务。甚至一些俄罗斯的社交网络和媒体也受到了影响。银行也是。所以他们不得不开始更有选择性地对付我们的反审查工具。

  (02:56:41) We ended up spending I think, millions of dollars on that. And as a result, the sensor got crazy there. They would ban IP addresses and large subnets of IP addresses and huge subnets, which resulted in a weird situation where parts of the country’s infrastructure started to go down. People were trying to pay for groceries in the supermarkets and nothing would work because the Russian sensor blocked too many IP addresses and some of the subnets were used to host other unrelated services. Even some Russian social networks and media got affected. Banks. So they had to start being more selective in how they combat our anti-censorship tools.

  (02:57:41) 我们当时遇到的最大阻力来自苹果公司。苹果不允许我们在应用商店更新 Telegram，至少说了四个星期，我们必须先与俄罗斯达成协议，而俄罗斯说这是不可能的。他们说：”我们将允许你在全球范围内推送 Telegram 的更新，除了俄罗斯。”我们不想这样做。几乎失去了希望。在某个时刻，我说：”也许这是唯一的办法。也许我们应该退出俄罗斯市场。停止允许俄罗斯用户从应用商店下载这个应用。”这将意味着一切都结束了。我们在 2018 年帮助组织了一些在莫斯科捍卫 Telegram、隐私和言论自由的抗议活动。当时有人放飞纸飞机，很有意思。

  (02:57:41) The biggest resistance we got at the time was from Apple. Apple didn’t allow us to update Telegram in the app store saying for at least four weeks that we have to come to an agreement with Russia first who said it’s not possible. They said, “We will allow you to push your update for Telegram worldwide except for Russia.” We didn’t want to do that. Almost lost hope. At some point I said, “Maybe this is the only way. Maybe we should leave the Russian market. Stop allowing users from Russia to download the app from the app store.” Which would mean it’s over. We helped organize certain protests in defense of Telegram and privacy and freedom of speech in 2018 in Moscow. There was hilarious people flying paper airplanes.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:58:47) 我看到了。

  Lex Fridman (02:58:47) I saw that.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:58:49) 在某个时刻，我决定必须发表声明。我必须说苹果站在了审查者一边。我们在这里试图做正确的事，但没有苹果，我们做不了多少，因为人们再也无法下载你的应用了。我在我的频道上发布了这个消息，然后《纽约时报》报道了这件事，并配上了抗议者放飞纸飞机的图片。苹果在那篇报道中受到了批评，我想，嗯，苹果或许应该回到历史的正确一边来。我等了一天，又等了两天。与此同时，由于我们一个多月无法更新 Telegram，它开始出现问题，因为新版本的 iOS 发布了，使得旧版本的 Telegram 过时了。一些曾经好用的功能停止工作，世界各地的用户开始受到影响。与俄罗斯无关的世界其他地区的用户也遇到了 Telegram 的问题。所以情况真的很严重，我对我的团队说，你们知道吗，如果到今天下午 6 点……我想那是个星期五。如果情况没有变化，苹果不允许我们推送 Telegram 版本，那我们就忘了俄罗斯市场吧。我们继续前进，因为世界其他地区更重要。这很遗憾，但我们又能做什么呢？

  Pavel Durov (02:58:49) And at some point I decided I have to make a statement. I have to say that Apple sided with the censor. That we are trying to do the right thing here, but without Apple we can’t do much because people can’t download your app anymore. I published it in my channel and then New York Times picked it up with the picture of the protesters flying paper airplanes. Apple was criticized in that story and I thought, well, Apple should probably come back to the right side of history here. And I waited for one day and two days. In the meantime, since we’ve been unable to update Telegram for more than a month, it started to fall apart because the new version of iOS came out and it made the old versions of Telegram obsolete. Some features that used to work stop working and users all over the world start to suffer. People that had nothing to do with Russia from other parts of the world experienced issues with Telegram. So it was really serious and I said to my team, you know what if by 6:00 P.M. today … I think it was a Friday. Nothing changes and Apple doesn’t allow us to push the version of Telegram through, let’s just forget about the Russian market. Let’s keep going because the rest of the world is more important. It’s sad, but what can we do?

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:00:44) 顺便说一句，这剥夺了所有想要抗议的人、所有想要在俄罗斯交谈的人，以及他们在那个地区最流行的通讯应用中发声的能力。

  Lex Fridman (03:00:44) Which by the way, removes all the people that want to protest all the people that want to talk in Russia and removes their ability to have a voice in the most popular messaging app in that part of the world.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:00:55) 是的。神奇的是，在我计划将 Telegram 从俄罗斯应用商店下架以便在全球推进前的 15 分钟，苹果联系我们说：”没问题。你的更新已获批准。”我们得以继续与审查机构玩这种捉迷藏的游戏，通过数字抵抗绕过审查。在伊朗，情况有点不同，因为我们意识到尝试提供所有这些 IP 地址成本太高，而且此外，不清楚我们是否会违反制裁制度。所以我们做了别的事情。我们为那些为 Telegram 设置代理服务器的人创造了经济激励。任何人，比如一个伊朗工程师，都可以建立一个代理服务器，在伊朗用户中分发其地址，任何通过这个人的代理连接的人都能看到一个置顶聊天，那是系统管理员、代理所有者放在那里的广告。这样你就可以通过你的代理盈利。这就创造了一个市场，导致伊朗人自己解决了问题。结果，我们保住了数百万甚至数千万的伊朗用户。直到今天，我想 Telegram 在伊朗仍然被禁，但我们可能仍有大约 5000 万来自那个国家的人依赖 Telegram。

  Pavel Durov (03:00:55) Yes. Magically 15 minutes to the time I was planning to remove Telegram from the Russian app store in order to proceed globally, Apple reached out to us and said, “It’s okay. Your update is approved.” And we managed to keep playing this hide and seek game with the sensor bypassing censorship through digital resistance. In Iran, it was a little bit different because we realized it would’ve been too expensive to try to come up with all these IP addresses, and in addition, it was not clear whether we wouldn’t be in violation of the sanctions regime. So we did something else. We created an economic incentive for people who would set up proxy servers for Telegram. Any person, say an Iranian engineer could come up with a proxy server, distribute its address among users in Iran, and whoever connected through the proxy of this person would be able to see a pinned chat, an ad placed there by the system administrator, the owner of the proxy. And this is how you can monetize your proxy. So it created this market which resulted in Iranians fixing their own problem. And as a result, we kept millions or maybe 10s of millions of Iranian users. Up until this day I think Telegram is still banned in Iran today, but we probably have something like 50 million people relying on Telegram from that country.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:03:08) 所以人们总能找到办法绕过。

  Lex Fridman (03:03:08) So that people find a way around.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:03:10) 人们总能找到办法绕过。

  Pavel Durov (03:03:10) People find a way around.

  中毒事件

  Poisoning

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:03:11) 这太有才了。听到这个真是太好了。我必须问你这件事。在和你相处了许多天之后，我了解到一些你当时从未谈过、至今也未谈过的事情，那就是 2018 年曾有一次针对你的暗杀企图，使用的似乎是投毒。我认为对我来说，这显示了这场为维护地球上所有人言论自由的斗争的严肃性。我必须说，如果你告诉我这个故事，对我来说意义重大。

  Lex Fridman (03:03:11) That’s ingenious. That’s really great to hear. I have to ask you about this. After having spent many days with you, I learned of something that you’ve never talked about at the time, have not talked about to this day, that there was an assassination attempt on you using what appears to be poisoning in 2018. I think to me, it showed this seriousness of this fight to uphold the freedom of speech for everyone, for all people of earth that you’re doing. I have to say it would mean a lot to me if you tell me this story.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:03:55) 嗯，这是我从未公开谈论过的事情，因为我不想让人们惊慌，尤其是在那个时候，那是 2018 年春天。我们正试图为 TON（一个区块链项目）筹集资金，与各种风险投资公司和投资者合作。与此同时，有几个国家试图禁止 Telegram。所以那并不是我开始分享任何与我个人健康相关的事情的最佳时机。但那是一段难以忘怀的经历。我从不生病。我相信我有完美的健康。我很少头痛或严重咳嗽。我不吃药，因为我不需要吃药。那是我生命中唯一一次，我认为我快要死了。

  Pavel Durov (03:03:55) Well, this is something I never talked about publicly because I didn’t want people to freak out particularly at the time, it was spring 2018. We were trying to raise funds for TON, a blockchain project working with all kinds of VCs and investors. In the meantime, we had a couple of countries trying to ban Telegram. So it wasn’t exactly the best moment for me to start sharing anything related to my personal health. But that was something that is hard to forget. I never fall ill. I believe I have perfect health. I very rarely have headaches or bad cough. I don’t take pills because I don’t have to take pills. And that was the only instant in my life when I think I was dying.

  (03:05:05) 我回到家，打开我租的联排别墅的门。我有一个奇怪的邻居，他在门附近给我留了点什么。一小时后，当我已经在床上时……我当时一个人住。我感觉非常糟糕。全身疼痛。我试图起床去洗手间，但在去的路上，我感觉身体的功能开始关闭。先是视力和听力，然后我呼吸困难。一切都伴随着非常剧烈的疼痛。心脏、胃、所有血管。这很难解释，但我唯一确定的是，是的，就是这样了。

  (03:05:05) I came back home, opened the door of my townhouse, the place I rented. I had this weird neighbor and he left something for me there around the door. And one hour after when I was already in my bed … So I was living alone. I felt very bad. I felt pain all over my body. I tried to get up and go to the bathroom, but while I was going there, I felt that functions of my body started to switch off. First the eyesight and hearing, then I had difficulty breathing. Everything accompanied by very acute pain. Heart, stomach, all blood vessels. It’s a difficult thing to explain, but one thing I was certain about is, yeah, this is it.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:06:25) 你以为你要死了。

  Lex Fridman (03:06:25) You thought you were going to die.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:06:26) 是的。就是这样。因为我无法呼吸。我什么也看不见。非常痛苦。我想，结束了。我想，嗯，我度过了美好的一生。我设法完成了一些事情。然后我瘫倒在地板上，但我不记得了，因为疼痛掩盖了一切。第二天我发现自己躺在地板上。天已经亮了，我站不起来。我虚弱极了。我看着我的手臂和身体，全身的血管都破裂了。这种事从未发生在我身上。之后的两周我无法走路。我待在我的住处，决定不告诉我团队里的大多数人，因为 again，我不想让他们担心。但那很艰难。那真的很艰难。

  Pavel Durov (03:06:26) Yeah. This is it. Because I couldn’t breathe. I couldn’t see anything. Was very painful. I think it’s over. I thought, well, I had a good life. I managed to accomplish a few things. And then I collapsed on the floor, but I don’t remember it because the pain covered everything. I found myself on the floor the next day. Was already bright and I couldn’t stand up. I was super weak. I looked at my arms and my body, blood vessels were broken all over my body. Something like this never happened to me. I couldn’t walk for two weeks after. I stayed at my place and I decided not to tell most of my team about it because again, I didn’t want them to worry. But it was tough. That was tough.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:07:35) 那是否让你对你所走的道路感到害怕，意思是所有的政府、所有的情报机构、所有我们提到过的人？这就像你在玩一个电子游戏。你从 VK 开始，只是试图构建一个能够扩展的东西，突然你发现有人 DDoS 攻击安全性、基础设施的完整性，然后你意识到有政治，然后你意识到有地缘政治，所有这些力量都有兴趣控制通信渠道，而你只是一个好奇的人，创建了一个让地球上每个人都能交谈的平台，突然你意识到有很多人在攻击你。这如何改变了你的看法？这是否让你对世界更加害怕？

  Lex Fridman (03:07:35) Did that make you afraid of the road you are walking, meaning all the governments, all the intelligence agencies, all the people like we mentioned? It’s like you’re playing a video game. You started with VK where you’re just trying to build a thing that scales and all of a sudden you find out there’s DDoS attacking the security, the integrity of the infrastructure, and then you realize there’s politics and then you realize there’s geopolitics and all of these forces are interested in controlling channels of communication, and you’re just a curious guy who created a platform for everybody on the earth to talk, and all of a sudden you realize there’s a lot of people attacking you. How did that change your view? Did that make you more scared of the world?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:08:42) 有趣的是，一点也不。如果说有什么不同的话，在那之后我感到更加自由了。那不是我第一次以为我要死了。在那之前的几年，我也曾有过一次经历，当时我也认为会有不好的事情发生在我身上，也与我工作有关。但在你经历了这样的事情之后，你会觉得你活着的每一天都是额外赚来的。所以从某种意义上说，你很久以前就死了，你得到的每一个新的一天都是一份礼物。

  Pavel Durov (03:08:42) Interestingly, not at all. If anything, I felt even more free after that. It wasn’t the first time I thought I was going to die. I had an experience when I assumed something bad is going to happen to me a few years before that also in relation to my work. But after you survive something like this, you feel like you’re living on bonus time. So in a way, you died a long time ago, and every new day you get is a gift.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:09:30) 是红利。

  Lex Fridman (03:09:30) Is a bonus.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:09:31) 是的。

  Pavel Durov (03:09:31) Yes.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:09:32) 你提到的第一次，是否与 VK 面临政府压力时的复杂情况有关？压力越来越大，你必须想办法应对，你明白那一刻你正在失去对 VK 的控制。

  Lex Fridman (03:09:32) And the first time you’re referring to would that have to do with the complexity that was happening with the pressure from the government on VK? The increasing pressure and you had to figure out what to do, and you understood that you’re losing control of VK that moment.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:09:52) 第一次这样的经历是在 2011 年 12 月。2011 年 12 月，莫斯科街头发生了大规模抗议。他们不相信俄罗斯国家杜马选举结果的公正性。我记得 2011 年，我还住在俄罗斯，经营着 VK。那时还没有 Telegram。所以政府要求我们从 VK 上撤下纳瓦利内的反对派团体，这些团体有数十万成员，并被用来组织这次抗议。我非常公开地拒绝了这样做。我只是认为这样做不对。人们有集会的权利。我嘲笑了向我提出这一要求的检察官。他们公布了要求的扫描件。我旁边放了一张一只穿着连帽衫、吐着舌头的狗的照片。我说……这就是我对检察官要求禁止反对派团体的正式回应。那一刻非常有趣。但随后有武装警察试图进入我的公寓，那一刻我想了很多事情。我问自己，我做出了正确的选择吗？我得出的结论是，我做出了正确的选择，然后我问自己，接下来逻辑上会发生什么？我意识到他们很可能要把我关进监狱，那么我打算怎么做？我问自己。

  Pavel Durov (03:09:52) The first of these instances was in December 2011. December 2011 you had this huge protest on the streets of Moscow. They didn’t trust in the integrity of the election results to the state Duma in Russia. I remember 2011, I still lived in Russia running VK. There was no Telegram. So the government demanded that we take down the opposition groups of Navalny from VK that had hundreds of thousands of members and that were used to organize this protest. And I very publicly refused to do that. I just decided it’s not the right thing to do. People have the right to assemble. And I mocked the Prosecutor who handed me that demand. They put out a scan of it. And next to it a photo of a dog in a hoodie with its tongue out. And I said … This is my official response to the prosecutor’s request to ban the opposition groups. That was very funny at the moment. But then I had armed policemen trying to get into my apartment, and I thought about many things at that moment. I asked myself, did I make the right choice? And I came to the conclusion that I made the right choice and I asked myself, what would be the next thing that would logically follow from this? And I realized they’re probably going to put me in prison, so what am I going to do about it? I asked myself.

  (03:12:04) 我告诉自己，我要绝食至死。这可能很多男人都有这种想法。他们愿意为他人或他们坚信的某些原则而死。我在这里并不孤单。我猜爱德华·斯诺登也准备好了赴死，或者其他像阿桑奇这样的人。同样，在那一刻，我意识到没有办法安全地沟通。我需要告诉我哥哥发生了什么。他们很可能也在追查他。我如何在不背叛他的情况下告诉他？因为在 2011 年，记得 WhatsApp 已经存在了。我想他们是在 2009 年推出的，但它完全没有加密。所有消息在传输中都是明文，这意味着即使是你的系统管理员，更不用说你的运营商，都能访问你的消息。直到 Telegram 开始推动加密之后，其他应用才突然想起来隐私并非他们的 DNA（正如 WhatsApp 创始人著名地声称的那样），但在 2011 年，这一定是一个休眠的基因。

  (03:12:04) And I told myself, I’m going to starve myself to death. It’s something that probably many men have. They’re ready to die for other people or certain principles they strongly believe in. I’m not alone here. I guess Edward Snowden was ready to die as well, or some other people like Assange. Also, at that moment, I realized there’s no way to communicate securely. I need to tell my brother what’s going on. They’re probably going after him. How do I tell him without betraying him? Because in 2011, remember WhatsApp was already there. I think they launched in 2009, but it had zero encryption. All messages were plain text in transit, meaning that even your system administrator, let alone your carrier had access to your messages it was only after Telegram started this push for encryption that this other apps suddenly remembered that privacy wasn’t their DNA as WhatsApp founders famously stated, but it must have been a dormant gene in 2011.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:13:28) 是的。是的。

  Lex Fridman (03:13:28) Yeah. Yeah.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:13:33) 在 2011 年，没有办法以安全的方式发送消息。我也告诉自己，如果我能活过这次，我一定要推出一款安全的通讯应用。不知何故，结果并没有太糟。我被传唤到检察官办公室，回答了一些愚蠢的问题，比我最近在法国调查案中必须回答的问题要少。但那是结束的开始。很明显，我将无法按照我想要的方式运营 VK。就在那时，我收拾好背包，开始等待。我搬到了酒店，意识到任何一天我都可以离开这个国家，我继续运营 VK。我开始设计 Telegram 并组建团队。但我知道我在俄罗斯的日子不多了。

  Pavel Durov (03:13:33) In 2011, there was no way to send a message in secure way. And I also told myself, if I’m going to survive this, I’m definitely launching a secure messaging app. Somehow it ended up not being too bad. I was summoned to the Prosecutor, answered some silly questions, fewer questions that I had to answer more recently in the French investigation case. But it was the beginning of the end. It was clear that there’s no way I’m going to be allowed to run VK the way I wanted it to run. That was the moment I packed my backpack and just started to wait. I moved to hotel and realized any day I can leave the country, I kept running VK. I started to design Telegram and assembling the team. But I knew my days in Russia were numbered.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:15:01) 首先，我真的必须代表我自己，我想还有数百万人，也许是数亿人，也许是整个地球，感谢你在那些情况下将生命置于危险之中。我认为言论自由是人类繁荣的基础。它依赖于那些愿意为自己的原则付出一切的人。所以谢谢你。稍作暂停。我需要去下洗手间。好了，我们回来了。再次感谢，我们度过了超长的一天，你愿意花这么多小时陪我，谢谢你坚持下来。我们能行的。现在已经很晚了。

  Lex Fridman (03:15:01) First I really have to say for myself from I think millions, maybe hundreds of millions, maybe the entirety of Earth, thank you for putting your life on the line in those cases, I think freedom of speech is fundamental to the flourishing of humanity. And it depends on people willing to put everything on the line for their principles. So thank you. Quick pause. I need a bathroom break. All right, we’re back. And once again, we had a super long day and the fact that you would spend many hours with me, thank you for powering through. We got this. It’s already late at night.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:15:45) 谢谢你这么做。

  Pavel Durov (03:15:45) Thanks for doing this.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:15:47) 好的。那么，有越来越多的迹象表明，我认为从我在网上看到的事情来看，俄罗斯正在考虑禁止 Telegram。首先，你认为这可能会发生吗？你认为这可能会对人类产生什么影响？总的来说，你对此有什么看法？

  Lex Fridman (03:15:47) Okay. So there is increasing indication I think from things I’ve seen online that Russia is considering banning Telegram. First of all, do you think this might happen and what effect do you think this might have on humanity and in general what do you think about this?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:16:07) 这绝对有可能发生。如你所说，有一些迹象表明。已经有一些部分禁止它的尝试。Telegram 在俄罗斯的部分地区，如达吉斯坦，已经无法访问。如果俄罗斯恢复其禁止 Telegram 的尝试，那将是非常可悲的，因为目前它被其民众用于各种目的，不仅仅是个人通信或经济商业活动，而且它也是俄罗斯人民能够获取独立信息来源的唯一平台。如果你想想像 BBC 或其他任何非俄罗斯的信息来源这样的媒体机构，它们在俄罗斯只能通过 Telegram 频道的形式访问。它们的网站被禁了。其他一些社交媒体网站也被禁了。如你所说，有迹象表明俄罗斯正计划将用户从现有的通讯应用（如 WhatsApp 和 Telegram）迁移到他们自己本土开发的工具上，这当然对政府是完全透明的，并且不允许独立于政府的声音表达自己。

  Pavel Durov (03:16:07) It can definitely happen. As you said, there are certain indications. There have been certain attempts to partially ban it. Telegram is no longer accessible in parts of Russia such as Dagestan and will be incredibly sad if Russia restores its attempts to ban Telegram because currently it’s been used by its population for all kinds of purposes, not just personal communication or economic business activities, but also it’s the only platform which allows the Russian people to access independent sources of information. If you think about media outlets such as BBC or any other non-Russian of source of information, they’re only accessible in Russia through Telegram in the form of Telegram channels. Their websites banned. Some other social media sites banned. And as you said, there are indications that Russia is planning to migrate users from existing messaging apps such as WhatsApp and Telegram to their own homegrown tool, which would of course be fully transparent to the government and wouldn’t allow voices independent from the government to express themselves.

  (03:17:53) 这无疑是一个令人担忧的趋势。我们在那些不以保护言论自由闻名的国家看到这些尝试，但在那些以保护自由而闻名的国家中也越来越多地看到这种情况。这就创造了一个恶性循环，因为从某种程度上说，欧洲国家试图在听起来合法的借口下打击言论自由，比如打击错误信息或选举干预，他们创造了先例，并使限制言论自由合法化，然后这些先例又被威权政权利用，他们会说在像中东或伊朗这样的地方，他们做的并没有什么不同。限制不符合主流叙事的言论现在已成为常态。

  (03:17:53) It’s certainly an alarming trend. We see these attempts in countries that are not famous for protecting freedom of speech, but also increasingly in countries that have been known to protect freedoms. And this creates this vicious circle because in a way, European countries trying to fight freedom of speech under pretexts that sound legitimate, such as combating misinformation or election interference, they create precedents and they legitimize restrictions to freedom of speech, which then in turn be used by authoritarian regimes and they would say in places like BigEast or Iran that they’re not doing anything different. It’s the norm now to restrict voices that don’t go in line with the narrative.

  (03:19:11) 这很可悲，因为让我们的生活变得有趣的事情之一，就是能够体验到不同人、不同观点的丰富性。你限制了人们的自由，你就不可避免地减缓了经济增长、幸福水平、人们为社会做贡献的方式以及人们表达自己的方式。我个人认为，在任何国家，尤其是像俄罗斯这样的大国，禁止像 Telegram 这样的工具将是一个巨大的错误，因为俄罗斯人民是极具才华和韧性的民族。他们是最早开始利用 Telegram 实施的一些最新创新的人群之一。他们是早期采用者。我想说，他们和美国人，也许还有东欧其他地方的人，比如乌克兰人和东南亚人，他们是最早开始使用我们推出的任何新功能的人群之一。他们对创新有着极其强烈的渴望。

  (03:19:11) That’s sad because one of the things that makes our life interesting is this abundance of different viewpoints of different people that we get to experience. You limit the freedom of people, you inevitably decelerate economic growth, level of happiness, the way people can contribute to the society, the way people can express themselves. I personally think it would be a huge mistake to ban a tool like Telegram in any country, particularly a large country such as Russia, because the Russian people are incredibly talented and resilient people. They’re among the first to start utilizing some of these recent innovations that Telegram implements. They’re the early adopters. I’d say them and also the Americans, perhaps other people from Eastern Europe like Ukrainians and Southeast Asians, they’re among the first people to start using any new addition that we launch. They’re incredibly hungry for innovation.

  Lex Fridman (03:20:32) 所以说了这么多，作为宣传的一部分，总的来说，到处都有对你的攻击。有各种误导信息。我读了很多东西，我认为这些是系统性地在对你撒谎，从各个角度撒谎关于你，撒谎关于Telegram。你为什么会被所有人攻击这么多？

  Lex Fridman (03:20:32) So all that said, as part of the propaganda and in general, there’s attacks on you all over the place. There’s misinformation. I’ve read a bunch of things that are, I think in a systematic way, lying about you, lying about telegram from all angles. Why do you get attacked so much by everybody?

  Pavel Durov (03:20:56) 因为保护言论自由。这不是交很多朋友的方式。因为你不可避免地会发现自己处于一种情况，你会保护任何国家当前政府的反对派的言论自由。然后政府的最初反应，以及一种非常基本的本能反应，就是说我们的立场不应该被信任和允许表达，因为他们实际上是某个外国对手、某种地缘政治力量的特工，想要摧毁我们的国家。这是历史上每一个专制政权都使用的伎俩。你看看斯大林主义的俄罗斯或纳粹德国，毛主义的大东，他们总是使用同样的伎俩，说“我们需要限制你的言论自由，因为这些伪装成反对派的人实际上是另一个想要接管的国家特工。”这就是为什么他们的公民忘记了他们的自由。现在你越来越看到在自由国家也有类似的尝试。

  Pavel Durov (03:20:56) For protecting freedom of speech. It’s not a way to make a lot of friends. Because you would inevitably find yourself in a situation where you would be protecting the freedom of the opposition to the current government in any country to express themselves. And then the initial reaction and a very basic instinctive reaction of any government would be to say our position shouldn’t be trusted and allowed to express themselves because they’re actually are agents of some foreign rival, a geopolitical force that wants to destroy our country. This is something that every authoritarian regime in history used. You take Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany, Maoist BigEast, they always use the same trick that say, “We need to limit your freedom of speech because these people who are masquerading as opposition are actually the agents of this other country that wants to take over.” That’s why their citizens forget about their freedoms. And now increasingly you see similar attempts in free countries.

  (03:22:33) 比如说马克龙总统的团队最初的本能，当他们面对一些镜头时。比如他妻子打他的镜头，就会说是全都是假的俄罗斯图像。某种不准确的东西。某种误导信息或干涉。然后当他们面对更多信息时，他们不得不完善叙事。所以当你发现自己处于一种情况，你在运营像Telegram这样的平台，然后你保护与主流叙事不符的想法的表达自由时，你经常会发现自己处于这种交火中，掌权的力量会说你一定是与他们不喜欢的某个外国政府合作。他们不可避免地说，哦，如果你保护这些声音，这不对。他们爱你当你在远离他们的国家，或者更好的是在他们的地缘政治对手国家保护言论自由时。他们为此赞美你。但然后当你在他们自己的国家做同样的事时，他们有这种双相态度，说“不，不，不，不，不。我们爱你保护言论自由，但不是在这里，不是在我的后院。我们不需要这里。我们没问题。我们有自由媒体。”

  (03:22:33) The initial instinct from say, President Macron’s team, when they’re confronted with some footage. For example, the footage of his wife slapping him would be to say it’s all fake Russian imagery. Something that is inaccurate. Something that is misinformation or interference. And then when they are confronted with more information, they have to refine the narrative. So when you find yourself in a situation that you’re running this platform like Telegram, and then you protect the freedom to express of ideas that don’t go in line with the mainstream narrative, you often find yourself in this crossfire when the forces in power will say that you must be working with some foreign government that they don’t like. Inevitably they would say that, oh, if you’re protecting this voices, it’s not right. They love you when you are protecting the freedom of speech in a country that is far from them or better yet in a country that is their geopolitical rival. They praise you for that. But then they have this bipolar attitude when you do the same in their own country and they say, “No, no, no, no, no. We loved you for protecting freedom of speech, but not here, not in my backyard. We don’t need it here. We’re all right. We have free press.”

  (03:24:28) 然后你会发现自己处于这种奇怪的位置。乌克兰人说你在为俄罗斯人工作。俄罗斯人说你在为乌克兰人工作。而所有这种精神分裂是我们不得不处理一段时间的东西，因为这是攻击你的非常简单的方式。在某个时刻你不明白它来自哪里。是我们的竞争对手吗？我们必须给我们的竞争对手信用，如果这是他们的发明来推出这些谣言，因为在某个时刻他们一定意识到他们在产品方面无法在技术上竞争，所以他们必须做这样的事情。或者只是政府在推出这些谣言，试图诋毁平台，试图吓唬他们的公民远离它，因为他们明白只要他们允许一个亲自由的平台运营，他们对他们自己国家的权力和控制就会处于危险中。

  (03:24:28) And then you will find yourself in this weird spot. The Ukrainians say you work for the Russians. The Russians say you work for the Ukrainians. And all this schizophrenia is something that we had to deal with for some time because it’s a very easy way to attack you. At some point you don’t understand where it is coming from. Is it our competitors? We must give credit to our competitors if it’s their invention to launch these kind of rumors because at a certain point they must have realized they can’t compete technologically on the product side, so they must do something like this. Or it’s just governments launching these rumors, trying to discredit the platform, trying to scare their citizens away from it because they understand that their power and grip of their own country is in danger as long as they allow a pro-freedom platform to operate.

  Lex Fridman (03:25:39) 而在所有这一切中，我们应该一遍又一遍地说，你只是在为地球上所有人保留言论自由，无论他们相信什么，只要他们不号召暴力，只要他们不从事我们讨论过的一些犯罪活动，包括恐怖组织。但除此之外，无论他们相信什么。左翼或右翼，你只是在保留他们的言论自由。你认为乌克兰人民、俄罗斯人民和伊朗人民，全世界人民，尽管有针对你的宣传，他们理解这一点吗？

  Lex Fridman (03:25:39) And through all of this, we should say over and over, that you are simply preserving the freedom of speech for all people of earth no matter what they believe, as long as they don’t call for violence, and as long as they’re not doing some of the criminal activity that we discussed, including terrorist organizing. But other than that, it doesn’t matter what they believe. Left-wing or right-wing, you’re just preserving their freedom of speech. Do you think people of Ukraine, people of Russia and people of Iran, people of all over the world understand that despite the propaganda against you?

  Pavel Durov (03:26:14) 我认为人们是聪明的。每次我现实生活中遇到这些你提到的国家中的某个人，或者人们在街上认出我，比如在迪拜这里，他们过来，他们似乎非常感激和理解。每个这些国家的宣传都会告诉他们很多事情，但他们学会了打折它。这就是为什么他们如此高兴Telegram存在，是因为他们理解周围世界的方式是接收来自相互仇恨的来源的冲突的、相互排斥的观点，并试图理解什么是真的。因为没有这样的东西叫无偏见的信息来源。当2022年乌克兰战争开始时，我立刻意识到Telegram将被双方用来传播宣传。我不希望Telegram被用作战争的工具，并公开建议也许我们应该暂停两国所有与政治相关的频道的活动。也许我们不应该在这些两个国家有频道。

  Pavel Durov (03:26:14) I think people are smart. Every time I meet somebody from one of these countries you mentioned in real life or people recognize me in the street, say here in Dubai, they come over, they seem incredibly grateful and understanding. The propaganda in each of these countries would tell them a number of things, but they learned to discount it. That’s why they’re so happy that Telegram exists is because the way they can understand the world around them is to receive conflicting, mutually exclusive viewpoints from sources that hate each other and try to understand what really is true. Because there’s no such thing as an unbiased source of information. When the war in Ukraine started in 2022, I instantly realized Telegram is going to be used to spread propaganda by both sides. And I didn’t want Telegram to be used as a tool for war and publicly. I suggested maybe we should just suspend the activity of all politics-related channels in both countries for the time of the war. Maybe we shouldn’t have channels in these two countries.

  (03:27:55) 然后有趣的是，来自两个国家的人都反抗这个。他们告诉我……乌克兰和俄罗斯的人都告诉我，我没有资格照顾他们并决定他们必须被授予访问哪些信息来源。他们是成年人，可以自己做这些决定。他们明白有很多宣传。他们学会了看穿这些宣传。他们学会了能够分辨真相与谎言。而在战争时期，对他们来说特别有价值的是接收尽可能多的信息，因为他们的亲戚、他们的朋友受到影响并且仍在受到影响，他们想明白发生了什么。在那个时刻，当我意识到人们是聪明的，人们明白，人们能看穿它。如果你问这些国家中的大多数人，你同意出于任何原因限制访问Telegram吗，他们会说不。

  (03:27:55) And then interestingly, people from both countries revolted against this. They told me … Both people in Ukraine and in Russia that I don’t get to babysit them and decide for them what sources of information that they have to be granted access to. They are grown-ups that can make these decisions for themselves. They understand that there is a lot of propaganda. They learn to see through this propaganda. They learn to be able to tell truth from lie. And in this time of war, it was particularly available for them to receive as much information as possible because their relatives, their friends who are getting affected and are still getting affected, they want to understand what’s going on. At that point, when I realized people are smart, people get it, people can see through it. If you ask most people in any of these countries, do you agree that access to Telegram should be restricted for whatever reason, they would say no.

  Lex Fridman (03:29:19) 他们渴望有发言权。

  Lex Fridman (03:29:19) They hunger to have a voice.

  Pavel Durov (03:29:21) 他们需要一个声音，他们需要一个安全地分享他们意见的地方。

  Pavel Durov (03:29:21) They need a voice, and they need a place to share their opinion securely.

  Lex Fridman (03:29:28) 我必须问关于领导力的问题，在Le Point采访中，记者说你经常被比作埃隆·马斯克，你强调了一些有趣的细微差别，你们相当不同。埃隆同时运营几家公司，而你只运营一家。埃隆可以更多地依赖情感方面，而你会在行动前深思熟虑。能扩展一下吗？还有一个有趣的点，你说每个人的弱点也是优势。

  Lex Fridman (03:29:28) I have to ask in the question of leadership in the Le Point interview, the journalist said that you’re often compared to Elon Musk, and you highlighted some interesting nuances around that, that you’re quite different. That Elon runs several companies at once, while you only run one. And Elon can lean more on the emotional side while you deliberate and think deeply before acting. Can you expand on this? Also there’s an interesting point that you made that everybody’s weakness is also a strength.

  Lex Fridman (03:30:00) 同样的点，他说每个人的弱点也是优势。每个人的优势也是弱点。所有我们的特征都有双重性质。所以关于埃隆的话题，你从他的领导风格中学到了什么？你尊重他什么？

  Lex Fridman (03:30:00) Same point that he made that everybody’s weakness is also a strength. Everybody’s strength is also a weakness. There’s a dual nature to all our characteristics. So on the topic of Elon, what have you learned from his style of leadership? What do you respect about him?

  Pavel Durov (03:30:20) 首先，我不认为有这样的东西叫负面个人特质。在大多数情况下，我们的坏特质和好特质是同一个特质，或者至少有相同的来源。当然，有一些极端例子，但我说99%的人，如果你分析他们的性格，他们的勇敢在其他情况下可以被视为鲁莽。根据情况，你会看到完全相同的个性特质，它要么是好事要么是坏事。因为人类作为一个整体是完美的，我们每个人不同是有原因的。我们进化成不同的，以互补彼此的能力，这样一起我们是无敌的。

  Pavel Durov (03:30:20) First of all, I don’t think there is such thing as a negative personal trait. In most cases, our bad traits and our good traits are the same trait, or at least have the same source. Of course, there are some extreme examples, but I’d say 99% of people, if you analyze their character, their bravery can be seen and recklessness in other situations. Depending on circumstances, you would see exactly the same personality trait and it would be either a good thing or a bad thing. Because humanity is perfect as a whole, and each of us is different for a reason. We have evolved to be different, to complement each other’s abilities, so that together we’re invincible.

  (03:31:20) 即使你拿一个像埃隆这样复杂的人，我相信埃隆展示的某些人们批评的特质也是他力量的来源。例如，他的感情用事源于他深深关心问题，他愿意开始尽可能多的战争和战斗来改变世界到他认为正确的方向。他似乎也能够从所有这些战争和个人冲突中提取动机，这又不是可以低估的东西。在一个成功企业家的生命中的某个时刻，动机的问题开始成为首要问题。如果我们谈论世界上最富有的人和最著名的企业家，你必须想知道他如何激励自己？

  (03:31:20) And even if you take a person as complicated as Elon, I believe that certain traits that Elon demonstrates that people criticize about him are also the sources of his strength. For example, his emotionality is derived from the fact that he cares about issues deeply, and he’s willing to start as many wars and as many fights as it takes to change the world in the direction that he thinks is right. He also seems to be able to extract motivation from all these wars and personal conflicts, which is again, not something to be underestimated. At a certain point in the life of a successful entrepreneur, the question of motivation starts to be the primary question. If we’re talking about the richest person in the world and the most famous entrepreneur in the world, you have to wonder how does he motivate himself?

  (03:32:40) 如果在X上开始一场战争，辩论某些问题或与其他人变得个人，批评他们，如果这些活动帮助埃隆创新并开始新项目，他应该做更多。没有什么错在不讨人喜欢。实际上，这是成功企业家的主要特质之一，不同意事情。而每次像埃隆这样的人，但没有像埃隆这样的人，只是埃隆，我认为，至少从我认识并亲自互动的企业家中，他是独特的，因为他不断推出新东西，并行运营它们，他似乎没有被拉得太薄。有些人认为他是，但他设法在所有或大多数努力中仍然展示成功。所以又一次，你可以批评埃隆感情用事，但没有这个他会是同一个人吗？我怀疑。

  (03:32:40) And if starting a war on X, debating certain issues or becoming personal with other CEOs, criticizing them, if these activities help Elon to innovate and start new projects, he should be doing more of it. There’s nothing wrong in being non-agreeable. Actually, it’s one of the main traits of a successful entrepreneur, not agreeing with things. And every time somebody like Elon, but there’s no somebody like Elon, it’s just Elon, I think, at least from the entrepreneurs I know and I personally interacted with, he’s unique in the sense that he keeps launching new things, running them in parallel, and he doesn’t seem to be stretched too thin. Well, some people think he is, but he manages to still demonstrate success in all or most of his endeavors. So again, you can criticize Elon for being emotional, but would he be the same person without this? I doubt that.

  Lex Fridman (03:34:11) 以及他激励的令人难以置信的团队。你谈到过这一点，Telegram的团队。组建一个A玩家团队，正如我们讨论过的，本身就是一种技能。这也是我们讨论过的领导者的一部分，被你组建的团队判断。

  Lex Fridman (03:34:11) And the incredible teams he’s motivated too. There’s an element of that which you’ve spoken about, the team at Telegram. Assembling a team of A players, as we’ve talked about, is a skill in itself. And that’s also a big part of the leaders that we’ve discussed, it’s like judged in part by the team you assemble.

  Pavel Durov (03:34:39) 是的。而启用这一点的一个必要性格特征是准备好不讨人喜欢。你必须准备好侮辱一些人。如果他们的工作低劣，你必须准备好毫不留情地解雇他们。所以为了成为一个高效和伟大的企业家并用创新丰富世界，你必须做不愉快的事情。大多数人会回避它。在某种意义上，企业家牺牲他们的内心平静为了贡献于周围的世界。而埃隆是这样一个伟大的例子。

  Pavel Durov (03:34:39) Yes. And one of the necessary character features to enable that is to be ready to be unpleasant. You have to be ready to insult some people. If their work is inferior, you have to be ready to fire them without remorse. So in order to be an efficient and great entrepreneur and enrich the world of innovations, you have to do unpleasant things. Most people will shy away from it. And in a certain sense, entrepreneurs sacrifice their peace of mind in order to contribute to the world around them. And Elon is a great example of that.

  财富

  Money

  Lex Fridman (03:35:31) 我必须问你关于Telegram的大局。我们已经谈到你拥有100%，在商业方面，Telegram的商业结构是迷人的。你投资了数亿，也许数亿美元的你的钱。据我所知，你拿的薪水是多少，1美元。

  Lex Fridman (03:35:31) I have to ask you about the big picture Telegram. We’ve already talked about the fact that you own 100% of it, and there’s a lot of on the business side of it, the business structure of Telegram is fascinating. You’ve invested hundred, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars of your money. As far as I know, you take a salary of what, $1.

  Pavel Durov (03:35:57) 一个迪拉姆是那个的三分之一。

  Pavel Durov (03:35:57) One dirham is one third of that.

  Lex Fridman (03:36:01) 三分之一美元。而在2024年是Telegram第一次盈利。所以这里一个有趣的问题，我们可以谈很多小时，但我想要一个高层次的图片。所以你通过坚持你的原则，留下了我理解的、我想是一大笔钱在桌上。例如，不做基于用户私人数据的广告，这基本上是每个社交媒体公司做的。所以Telegram做的唯一广告是基于频道和群组，基于主题，不是个人的私人数据。而另一件事，也是流氓和令人难以置信的，是你不做新闻 feed，这是社交媒体中最上瘾和参与诱导的方面，它喂养了互联网的非常上瘾的负面。

  Lex Fridman (03:36:01) One-third of a dollar. And in 2024 was the first time Telegram was profitable. So one of the interesting questions here that we could talk for many hours about, but I’d love to get a high view picture. So you’ve left what I understand, what I think is a huge amount of money on the table by sticking to your principles. For example, not doing advertisement that’s based on user private data, which basically every social media company does. So the only advertisement that Telegram does is based on channels and groups, based on the topic, not the private data of the individuals. And the other thing is, which is also gangster and incredible, is you don’t do a news feed, which is the most addictive and engagement inducing aspect of social media, which feeds the very kind of addictive downside of the internet.

  (03:37:02) 分心、参与、戏剧耕作方面，我们在最开始谈到过，你试图抵抗，你认为这在大规模上损害人类思维。所以反正，这只是说到你留下了很多钱在桌上。你到底是怎么做到盈利的？Telegram赚钱的方式是什么？

  (03:37:02) The distraction, the engagement, drama farming aspect that we’ve talked about in the very beginning that you tried to resist, that you think is damaging the human mind at scale. So anyway, that’s just speaking to the fact that you’re leaving a lot of money on the table. So how the hell were you able to be profitable? What are the ways that Telegram makes money?

  Pavel Durov (03:37:23) 是的。我们不得不创新很多为了达到盈利点，而不必诉诸可疑的商业活动涉及剥削用户个人数据，这是我们大多数竞争对手做的。因为金钱从来不是主要目标，至少对我不是。当我卖掉我第一家公司的剩余股份时，我不得不低于市场价格做，因为我没有完全离开俄罗斯而没有压力，我把绝大多数的一切重新投资到Telegram。Telegram是一个对我个人亏损的操作。我没有从Telegram提取比我投资的更多。我从来没有卖过一股，但我也从来没有想卖Telegram。所以你如何达到盈利点而不牺牲你的价值观？

  Pavel Durov (03:37:23) Yeah. We had to innovate a lot in order to reach a point where we are profitable without having to resort to dubious business activities involving exploiting personal data of users, something that most of our competitors do. Because money has never been the primary goal, at least not for me. When I sold the remaining share of my first company and I had to do it below market price because I didn’t leave Russia completely without any pressures, I reinvested the vast majority of everything in Telegram. Telegram is an operation that is losing money for me personally. I didn’t extract more from Telegram than I invested in it. I never sold a single share, but I also didn’t want to sell Telegram. So how do you reach a point when you’re profitable without sacrificing your values?

  (03:38:40) 我们探索的一个想法是订阅模式，但只针对某些额外功能。我们想保持所有现有功能免费，只是添加更多与业务相关的工具或高级用户的工具，他们必须每月支付4或5美元。这在当时是相当前所未有的。对于消息应用来说不被认为是可行的选项。我们在2022年推出了Telegram的优质订阅，现在我们有超过1500万付费订阅者。这是一些非常显著的经常性收入。所以我们今年仅从优质订阅就会收到超过5亿美元，而且它在快速增长。为此，我们不得不创新很多。我们把超过50个不同的功能包括到优质包中。然后如何让一个已经比市场上任何其他消息应用更强大的应用变得更有用，以便人们准备为这个额外支付？这不容易。这花了很多努力。

  (03:38:40) One of the ideas we explored was a subscription model, but only for certain additional features. We wanted to keep all the existing features free and just add more business-related tools or tools for advanced users that they would have to pay for, say 4 or $5 a month. It was quite unprecedented at the time. It wasn’t considered a viable option for messaging apps to do that. We launched the premium subscriptions for Telegram in 2022, and now we have over 15 million paid subscribers. This is some very significant recurring revenue. So we would receive more than half a billion dollars from premium subscriptions alone this year, and it’s growing fast. For that, we had to innovate a lot. We included over 50 different features into the premium package. And then how do you make an app that is already more powerful than any other messaging app on the market, even more useful so that people would be ready to pay for this extra? That wasn’t easy. That took a lot of effort.

  Lex Fridman (03:40:19) 而你不断添加功能。

  Lex Fridman (03:40:19) And you’re constantly adding features.

  Pavel Durov (03:40:21) 我们不断添加功能。

  Pavel Durov (03:40:21) We’re constantly adding features.

  Lex Fridman (03:40:22) 实际上看着添加的速度很有趣，有些是微妙的，比如对投票的更新、改进、扩展，例如。

  Lex Fridman (03:40:22) It’s actually fun to watch just the rate of adding, and some of them are subtle, like the updates to improvements, expansions of polls, for example.

  Pavel Durov (03:40:32) 是的。所以你不断改进现有功能并添加新的。而每次你添加新功能时，你不想让应用变得杂乱。所以在某种程度上，它们不在你的路上，它们是隐形的。这不是一件容易的事。而且大多数功能也许甚至不为我们大多数用户所知，但当你需要它们时，它们就在那里。所以优质是我们收入的一个来源。我们也有广告，但它们是基于上下文的，不是针对性的。当然，我们留下了大概80%的价值在桌上，因为我们不准备从事所有这些实践，剥削个人数据。

  Pavel Durov (03:40:32) Yeah. So you keep improving the existing features and adding new ones. And every time when you add a new feature, you don’t want to clutter the app. So in a way, they’re not in your way, they’re invisible. That’s not an easy thing to do. And most of the features maybe are not even known to the majority of our users, but when you need them, they’re there. So premium is one source of our revenue. We also have ads, but they’re context-based, not targeted. Of course, we leave probably 80% of value on the table because we’re not ready to engage in all this practices, exploiting personal data.

  Lex Fridman (03:41:15) 只是为了清楚，针对性广告是大多数社交媒体公司、大多数做任何种类广告的科技公司做的。那是使用用户个人数据的广告种类。只是为了澄清。而当你说80%，那是很多钱。

  Lex Fridman (03:41:15) Just to be clear, targeted ads is what most social media companies, most tech companies that do any kinds of advertisement do. And that’s the kind of advertisement that uses personal data from users. Just to clarify. And when you said 80%, that’s a lot of money.

  Pavel Durov (03:41:34) 当然，因为我们永远不会使用，例如，你的个人消息数据或你的上下文数据或你的元数据或你的活动数据来针对广告。很遗憾这成为了互联网行业的同义词，这种剥削。但我们很高兴尽管如此我们设法让Telegram盈利。我们也在大量实验基于区块链的技术。我们是第一个允许人们直接拥有他们的用户名或他们的数字身份使用智能合约和NFT的应用，移除Telegram从画面中。所以例如，Telegram不可能从你那里没收你的用户名。这是不可能的。我们做很多与Telegram生态相关的事情。我们有一个繁荣的迷你应用平台，数百万迷你应用开发者推出他们自己的机器人和应用。

  Pavel Durov (03:41:34) Of course, because we would never use, for example, your personal messaging data or your context data or your metadata or your activity data to target ads. It’s sad that it became synonymous with the internet industry, this kind of exploitation. But we are happy with the fact that we managed to make Telegram profitable despite that. We are also experimenting a lot with blockchain-based technologies. We’re the first app to allow people to directly own their username or their digital identities using smart contracts and NFTs removing Telegram from the picture. So for example, Telegram cannot confiscate your username from you. It’s impossible. We do a lot of things related to the ecosystem of Telegram. We have a thriving mini app platform, millions of mini app developers launching their own bots and applications.

  Lex Fridman (03:42:48) 所以很多人在Telegram平台上赚了数百万美元。

  Lex Fridman (03:42:48) So a lot of people are making millions of dollars on the Telegram platform.

  Pavel Durov (03:42:53) 是的。我们使他们能够通过Apple和Google提供的应用内购买机制从用户那里接收支付，我认为这是这种尝试的第一次，在iOS和Android上在一个大平台上允许第三方迷你应用开发者，基本上是如此深度集成到Telegram的网站，以至于你无法分辨它们是独立的还是整体体验的一部分。而通过提供这个支付选项，我们能够从这些交易中提取佣金。但这是一个非常低的佣金。目前是5%。所以我们在这里不贪婪。我们希望人们成功为我们的用户构建这些工具。我们明白迷你应用给我们带来用户。我们拥有的用户越多，Telegram就越成功和相关。我们需要第三方开发者。我认为在这一点上，Telegram给开发者提供了迄今为止最强大的工具来创建。

  Pavel Durov (03:42:53) Yes. We enabled them to receive payments from the users through in-app purchase mechanism provided by Apple and Google, which I think was the first attempt of this kind, to allow that both on iOS and Android on a big platform so that third-party developers of mini apps, which are basically websites so deeply integrated into Telegram that you can’t tell whether they’re standalone or they’re part of the overall experience. And by providing this payment option, we’re able to extract a commission from these transactions. But it’s a very low commission. Presently it’s 5%. So we’re not greedy here. We want people to succeed in building these tools for our users. We understand that mini apps bring us users. The more users we have, the more successful and relevant Telegram becomes. We need third-party developers. I think at this point, Telegram gives developers by far the most powerful tools to create.

  开放网络（TON）

  TON

  Lex Fridman (03:44:21) 加上还有机器人API。我的意思是你必须告诉我关于TON区块链和通过Telegram可用的加密生态。所以TON也就是The Open Network区块链是什么？

  Lex Fridman (03:44:21) Plus there’s a bot API. And I mean you have to tell me about the TON blockchain and the crypto ecosystem available through Telegram. So what is TON aka The Open Network blockchain?

  Pavel Durov (03:44:34) TON是我们最初在2018年和2019年开发的区块链技术，我们开始开发它是因为我们需要一个深度集成到Telegram的区块链平台，因为我们相信区块链。我们认为它是启用自由的技术之一。但在当时，如果你看看比特币，如果你看看以太坊，它们不够可扩展来应对我们数亿用户的负载。它们只会变得拥堵。我问我兄弟，“我们能创建一个本质上可扩展的区块链平台吗，以便无论有多少用户或交易，它都会分裂成更小的部分？”我们称之为ShardChains并且仍然处理所有交易。他想了几天的说，“是的，这是可能的，但不容易。”我们开始构建它。

  Pavel Durov (03:44:34) TON is a blockchain technology that we initially developed in 2018 and 2019, and we started to develop it because we needed a blockchain platform to be integrated deeply into Telegram because we believe in blockchain. We think it’s one of the technologies that enable freedom. But at the time, if you look at Bitcoin, if you look at Ethereum, they were not scalable enough to cope with the load that our hundreds of millions of users would create. They would just become congested. And I asked my brother, “Can we create a blockchain platform that would be inherently scalable so that no matter how many users or transactions there are, it would split into smaller pieces?” which we call ShardChains and would still process all transactions. And he thought for a few days and said, “Yes, it’s possible, but it’s not easy.” And we started building it.

  (03:45:37) 我们最终成功开发了那项技术，但我们无法发布它因为美国证券交易委员会对TON的筹资方式不满意。所以我们不得不放弃项目，开源社区接管了。幸运的是因为我们不断为第三方开发者举办那些比赛，有一个围绕TON的繁荣社区，现在代表The Open Network而不是之前的Telegram Open Network。所以这个项目最终在没有我们直接参与的情况下推出。它现在很繁荣因为我们做的一切，像我说的，这个基于区块链的代币化用户名，Telegram账户都基于TON及其智能合约。

  (03:45:37) We ended up succeeding in developing that technology, but we couldn’t release it because the SEC, the Securities and Exchanges Commission in the United States was unhappy with the way the fundraise for TON was conducted. So we had to abandon the project and the open source community took over. Luckily because we constantly conducted those contests for third-party developers, there was a thriving community around TON, which now stood for The Open Network as opposed to its prior name, Telegram Open Network. And so this project got eventually launched without our direct involvement. And it’s thriving now because everything we do, like I said, this blockchain based tokenized user names, Telegram accounts are all based on TON and its smart contracts.

  (03:46:55) 这是第三方开发者和创作者提取他们通过我们的收入分享程序赚取的资金的唯一方式。例如，与频道所有者，我们做广告收入的50-50分成。这也是在Telegram上交易的唯一方式。例如，如果你想在Telegram上购买广告，你应该使用TON。我们推出的所有新东西，例如，让我们说礼物，我们之前提到过，可以定义为重新发明的社会相关NFT集成到一个十亿用户生态系统中，但同时在链上可用、可转移，你可以直接拥有也基于TON。令人难以置信的快速增长空间。我们只在半年前推出它们，现在由于这个Telegram礼物，TON已经成为我认为最大的或第二大的区块链在每日NFT交易量方面。

  (03:46:55) It’s the only way for third-party developers and creators to withdraw the funds that they earn through our revenue sharing programs. For example, with channel owners, we do a 50-50 split of ad revenues. It’s also the only way to transact on Telegram. For example, if you want to buy ads on Telegram, you should use TON. All the new things we launch, for example, let’s say gifts that we mentioned earlier, which you can define as a reinvented socially relevant NFT integrated into a billion user ecosystem, but at the same time available on chain, transferable, which you can own directly also based on TON. Incredibly fast growing space. We only launched them half a year ago, and now as a result of this Telegram gifts, TON has become I think the largest or the second largest blockchain in terms of daily NFT trading volumes.

  Lex Fridman (03:48:19) 所以是的，像你提到的，它是一个第一层技术，而不是建立在以太坊或比特币之上，它能够实现Telegram需要的规模和交易速度。像你也提到的礼物。你最近推出了一些Snoop Dogg礼物。管道中会有其他名人吗？

  Lex Fridman (03:48:19) So yeah, like you mentioned, it is a layer one technology as opposed to being built on top of Ethereum or Bitcoin and it’s able to achieve scale and the speed of transactions that’s needed for something like Telegram. And like you also mentioned the gifts. You recently launched some Snoop Dogg gifts. Is there going to be some other celebrities in the pipeline?

  Pavel Durov (03:48:46) 是的，我是Snoop的大粉丝，这就是为什么当他们联系，建议一起做些什么，说，“让我们推出Snoop相关的礼物。”这真的很有趣。我们设法在30分钟内卖出价值1200万的礼物。

  Pavel Durov (03:48:46) Yeah, I’m a big fan of Snoop, and that’s why when they reach out, suggests to do something together, say, “Let’s launch the Snoop related gifts.” And it was really fun. We managed to sell 12 million worth of gifts within 30 minutes.

  Lex Fridman (03:49:03) 30分钟。好了，你明白了。我甚至拿了几个。但是的。

  Lex Fridman (03:49:03) 30 minutes. Well, there you go. I even got a few. But yeah.

  Pavel Durov (03:49:09) 在此之后我们有很多来自很多真正高调影响者的请求，在某种程度上他们在排队。

  Pavel Durov (03:49:09) After this we have many requests from many really high profile influencers that in a way are lining up.

  Lex Fridman (03:49:19) 所以从我作为粉丝的角度来看，只是看到你为任何种类的名人、运动员、音乐家创建什么样的艺术很有趣，因为Snoop礼物都是，只是，回到我们之前的对话，只是美丽的艺术作品，封装了某些模因，Snoop的某些方面，每个人都知道，这些他代表的文化图标。很酷。而且单个礼物的艺术的令人难以置信的细节只是令人难以置信。

  Lex Fridman (03:49:19) So from my perspective as a fan, it’s just interesting to see what kind of art you create for any kind of celebrities, athletes, musicians, because the Snoop gifts are all just, going back to our previous conversation, just beautiful pieces of art that encapsulate certain memes, certain aspects of Snoop that everybody knows, these cultural icons that he represents. It’s cool. And the incredible detail of the art of the individual gifts is just incredible.

  Pavel Durov (03:49:53) 而这些礼物中的每一个都是可扩展的因为它是基于向量的。它引用了Snoop创意传记中的某些点，每个都有无数不同的版本。我们不得不为每个创建超过50个独特的版本。然后每个单独的作品是独特的因为它也有独特的背景、独特的图标和背景。这是我们重新发明的东西因为我们不喜欢老派NFT。首先，它们在社会上不相关因为好吧，你有一个NFT，你在哪里展示它？在Telegram，一个Telegram礼物就在你的名字旁边。它是你Telegram数字身份的一部分。然后你可以创建礼物收藏并在你的个人资料页面炫耀。

  Pavel Durov (03:49:53) And each of these gifts is scalable because it’s vector based. It references certain points in Snoop’s creative biography, and each of them has countless different versions. We had to create over 50 distinctive versions of each. And then each individual piece is unique because it also has unique background, unique icon and the background. It’s something that we reinvented because we didn’t like the old school NFTs. First of all, they were not relevant socially because okay, you have an NFT, where do you demonstrate it? At Telegram, a telegram gift is there next to your name. It’s part of your digital identity on Telegram. And then you can create collections of gifts and show it off on your profile page.

  (03:50:50) 但我们也想重新发明的另一件事是美学部分。大多数NFT只是丑陋的，它们不是基于任何复杂的技术。所以我们用Snoop的礼物做的我认为代表了一个美丽的、审美上令人愉悦的同时在引用这个特定艺术家的传记方面非常准确的艺术和技术混合，我认为这是相当罕见的。我对此相当自豪。我认为这是一个新趋势，一个新现象。它只有半年，所以让我们看看它去哪里。我们将选择我们的下一个影响者或艺术家成为它的一部分。

  (03:50:50) But also, the other thing that we wanted to reinvent is the aesthetic part of it. Most NFTs are just ugly and they’re not based on any sophisticated technology. So what we did with Snoop’s gifts I think represents an example of beautiful, aesthetically pleasing and at the same time very accurate in terms of references to this specific artist’s biography mixture between art and technology, which I think is quite rare. I’m quite proud of it. I think it’s a new trend, a new phenomenon. It’s only half a year old, so let’s see where it goes. We’re going to select our next influencer or artist to be part of it.

  Lex Fridman (03:51:51) 嘿听着，我真的很自豪。我在我的名字旁边有一个Snoop礼物，我发现你可以通过固定它们添加更多。就像一个酷的小艺术图标。

  Lex Fridman (03:51:51) Hey listen, I’m really proud. I got a Snoop gift next to my name, and I figured out that you can add even more by pinning them. It’s like a cool little art icon.

  Pavel Durov (03:52:02) 顺便说一下，我们没想到。我们只是玩得很开心推出这些东西。然后我们意识到我们卖的第一个收藏中的一件大约是5美元。然后这个收藏中任何物品的最低价格目前是大约1万美元。而且它不断上升。所以我对接待相当惊讶。我意识到当你试图以与你的价值观一致的方式货币化社交媒体平台时，你被迫找到受益于你的用户而不是剥削他们的方式。人们爱这些礼物。人们爱他们可以用有价值的同时美丽的东西祝贺他们亲近的人的事实。也有些人从中做生意，这很有趣。他们转售这些礼物。我们最近遇到一个家伙仅仅从买卖礼物就赚了几百万美元。

  Pavel Durov (03:52:02) We didn’t expect it, by the way. We just had a lot of fun launching these things. And then we realized that one of the first collections we sold each piece at something like $5. And then the minimum price of any items in this collections currently is something like $10,000. And it keeps going up. So I was quite surprised with the reception. I realized when you are trying to monetize social media platform in a way that is consistent with your values, you are forced to find ways that benefit your users, not exploit them. People love these gifts. People love the fact that they can congratulate a person close to them with something valuable and at the same time something beautiful. Also, some people make a business out of it, which is funny. They resell these gifts. We recently met a guy who earned several million dollars just from buying and selling gifts.

  Lex Fridman (03:53:17) 这是一个真正的市场。

  Lex Fridman (03:53:17) It’s a real market.

  Pavel Durov (03:53:18) 这是一个真正的市场。只是他在几个月内做的。而去年当我们在Telegram上为迷你应用推出许多新功能以及它们的支付选项和其他货币化选项时，同一个人从迷你应用赚了1200万美元。我知道几个人说，“总共，我赚了1000万美元。”“我只在几个月内单枪匹马赚了300万美元。”有时他们会有一个两三个人的团队。所以每当我听到能够建立在Telegram之上的业务的人的故事时，这让我令人难以置信的自豪。

  Pavel Durov (03:53:18) It’s a real market. It’s just something that he did in a few months. And last year when we launched many new features for the mini apps on Telegram and the payments options for them and the other monetization options, the same guy earned $12 million from mini apps. And I know several people saying, “Totally, I earned $10 million.” “I earned $3 million in just a matter of months single-handedly.” Sometimes they would have a team of two, three people. So whenever I hear stories from people who were able to build businesses on top of Telegram, this makes me incredibly proud.

  比特币

  Bitcoin

  Lex Fridman (03:54:05) 而迷你应用包括游戏，它们包括任何种类的工具、服务。它是Telegram生态系统中的一个应用。让我问你关于加密的一般问题。所以你一直是加密货币的早期支持者，比特币。你早早买入比特币。你继续买入。也许你可以说到你为什么继续买入比特币的理由。你认为比特币会去到一百万美元吗？你认为它会继续增加，比特币和所有其他加密货币？

  Lex Fridman (03:54:05) And mini apps include games, they include tools, services of any kind. It’s an app within the ecosystem of Telegram. Let me ask you about crypto in general. So you’ve been an early supporter of cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin. You’ve bought in into Bitcoin early on. You kept buying. Maybe you could speak to the reasoning why you kept buying Bitcoin. Do you think Bitcoin will go to a million dollars? Do you think it’ll keep increasing, Bitcoin and all the other cryptocurrencies?

  Pavel Durov (03:54:40) 我从比特币开始以来或多或少就是一个大信徒。我在2013年买了我的前几千个比特币，我不太在意。我想我是在本地最大值买的，大约700美元一个比特币，我只是扔了几百万在那里。很多人后来在比特币明年跌到接近300、200时，开始表达他们的同情给我。“可怜的帕维尔。你投资这个新东西犯了这个可怕的错误，但别难过。我们仍然对你有一些尊重。”而我的回应是，“我不在乎。我不会卖它。我相信这个东西。我认为这是钱应该运作的方式。没有人能从你那里没收你的比特币。没有人能因为政治原因审查你。”

  Pavel Durov (03:54:40) I was a big believer in Bitcoins since more or less the start of it. I got to buy my first few thousands of Bitcoin in 2013, and I didn’t care much. I think I bought at the local maximum, it’s something like $700 per Bitcoin and I just threw a couple of millions there. A lot of people after Bitcoin later next year, went down somewhere close to 300, 200. Started to express their sympathy to me. So, “Poor Pavel. You made this horrible mistake investing in this new thing, but don’t feel bad about it. We still have some respect for you.” And my response to them were, “I don’t care. I’m not going to sell it. I believe in this thing. I think this is the way money should work. Nobody can confiscate your Bitcoin from you. Nobody can censor you for political reasons.”

  (03:55:52) 这是终极的交换手段。又一次，我现在在谈论比特币，但它与加密货币一般相关。所以我能够从我的比特币投资中资助我的生活方式，可以这么说。有些人认为如果我能租好地方或坐私人飞机，是因为我某种程度上从Telegram提取钱。像我说的，Telegram是对我个人亏损的操作。比特币是让我保持浮动的東西。我相信它会达到比特币值一百万美元的点。只是看看趋势。政府像明天没有一样印钱。没有人印比特币。有可预测的通胀然后在某个点停止。比特币会留下来。所有法币货币，还有待观察。

  (03:55:52) This is the ultimate means of exchange. And again, I’m now talking about Bitcoin, but it relates to cryptocurrencies in general. So I have been able to fund my lifestyle, so to say, from my Bitcoin investment. Some people think if I’m able to rent nice locations or fly private, it’s because I somehow extract money from Telegram. Like I said, Telegram is a money losing operation for me personally. Bitcoin is something that allowed me to stay afloat. And I believe it will come to a point when Bitcoin is worth $1 million. Just look at the trends. The governments keep printing money like no tomorrow. Nobody’s printing Bitcoin. There is a predictable inflation and then it stops at a certain point. Bitcoin is here to stay. All the fiat currencies, remains to be seen.

  双椅困境

  Two chairs dilemma

  Lex Fridman (03:57:13) 让我问你一个深刻哲学的严肃问题。在你的第一个Telco采访中，你背景中有两把有趣的椅子。我认为它们引用了一个现在传奇的模因。选择是Пики точёные или хуи дрочёные（俄语：“磨尖的矛或撸过的鸡巴。”）这两把椅子呈现的困境中的哲学智慧是什么？你自己亲自面对过这个困境吗？

  Lex Fridman (03:57:13) Let me ask you a deeply philosophical serious question. In your first Telco interview, you had two interesting chairs in the background. I think they reference a now legendary meme. The choice is Пики точёные или хуи дрочёные (Russian: “Sharpened pikes or jerked-off cocks.”) What is the philosophical wisdom in the dilemma that these two chairs present? Have you had to face the dilemma yourself personally?

  Pavel Durov (03:57:37) 不是这个确切的困境。我认为这是一个俄罗斯监狱中的人们必须面对的谜语。隐喻地，它描述了所有你被呈现两个次优选项的选择的情况。当你运营一个大企业或运营一个大国家时，它是类似的。你有时面对这个困境，你要做什么，这个非常可怕的东西或这个也非常可怕的东西？所以我认为这个谜语的正确答案是不做这些事情中的任何一件。重新框定问题，设计一个将劣势转化为优势的解决方案，然后用它来应对问题的另一面。所以你知道这个谜语的答案吗？

  Pavel Durov (03:57:37) Not this exact dilemma. I think this is a riddle that people have to face in Russian prisons. And metaphorically, it’s describing all the situations where you’re presented a choice between two suboptimal options. When you’re running a big business or when you’re running a large country, it is similar. You sometimes face this dilemma, what are you going to do, this very horrible thing or this also very horrible thing? So I think the right answer to this riddle is not to do any of these things. Reframe the question, design a solution that turns a disadvantage into an advantage and then use it to cope with the other side of the problem. So do you know the answer to that riddle?

  Lex Fridman (03:58:44) 不。互联网上的某个人说，“Не ходи туда, где задают такие вопросы”，基本上是尽量避免出现这种困境的情况，或者没有正确答案。

  Lex Fridman (03:58:44) No. Somebody on the internet said, “Не ходи туда, где задают такие вопросы”, which is basically try to avoid the situations where such dilemmas present themselves or there is no right answer.

  Pavel Durov (03:59:02) 这是回答这个问题的一种方式。如果你进入了一个棘手的情况，那可能早些时候你犯了某个错误-

  Pavel Durov (03:59:02) This is one of the ways to answer this question. If you got to a tricky situation that probably earlier you made a certain mistake-

  Lex Fridman (03:59:11) 你已经搞砸了。

  Lex Fridman (03:59:11) You fucked up already.

  Pavel Durov (03:59:12) 应该避免。但另一个相当有创意的答案是，你从一把椅子拿走尖锐的东西，或尖刺，然后用它们切掉另一把椅子上的东西。你知道我在说什么东西吗？

  Pavel Durov (03:59:12) Should have been avoided. But the other quite creative answer to this question is that you take the sharp objects from one of the chairs, or the spikes and then they use them to cut off the objects from the other chair. And you know what objects I’m talking about?

  Lex Fridman (03:59:38) 那是一个非常工程化的解决方案。我很高兴有人想出了那个。

  Lex Fridman (03:59:38) That’s a very engineering solution. I’m glad somebody came up with that.

  Pavel Durov (03:59:43) 我相信这是正确答案。我们经常被政客、企业领袖操纵来从两个次优选项中做出选择。然后当我们被迫做出选择，我们做出选择时，它几乎像是我们必须承担责任的东西。我不认为我们应该买账。

  Pavel Durov (03:59:43) I believe this is the right answer. We’re often being manipulated by politicians, by corporate leaders to make a choice from two suboptimal options. And then when we are forced to make this choice and we make this choice, it’s almost as if it’s something that we have to assume responsibility for. I don’t think we should be buying into that.

  Lex Fridman (04:00:12) 好的。而这个荒谬和可笑的主题，这里有一个物体出现在……没有多少人似乎注意到这个。人们应该去看你在奥斯陆自由论坛的优秀对话。在你身后，我不是考古学家，但我相信这是一个，怎么说呢，一个海象阴茎骨，它在你身后。你告诉我你把它带到法国又带回迪拜。我假设它给你带来某种运气。你为什么到处带着它？

  Lex Fridman (04:00:12) Okay. And this theme of absurdity and ridiculousness, there’s an object here that appeared in… Not many people seem to have noticed this. People should go watch your excellent conversation in the Oslo Freedom Forum. Behind you, I’m no archeologist, but I believe this is a, how should I put it, a walrus penis bone, and it was behind you. You told me that you brought it with you to France and back to Dubai. I assume it brings you luck of some sort. Why did you bring it with you everywhere?

  (04:01:00) 它有点像在美国他们有许愿骨？因为许愿骨带来运气。我还应该指出，就像Telegram与艺术一样，有小小的海象。而且由于你，我也不得不发现很多哺乳动物在它们的阴茎里面有一块骨头。而有骨头的进化优势，我想是相当明显的。它实际上提出了为什么人类没有真正的骨头在他们的阴茎里面。那里有很多问题。

  (04:01:00) Is it kind of like in America they have a wishbone? Is it just a large wishbone? Because the wishbone brings you luck. And I should also point out that just like with Telegram, with the art, there’s tiny little walruses. And thanks to you, I had to also find out that a lot of mammals have a bone inside their penis. And the evolutionary advantage, I guess, of having a bone is quite obvious. It actually raises the question of why humans don’t have a actual bone inside their penis. A lot of questions there.

  Pavel Durov (04:01:31) 那是一个非常有趣的主题。我有这个的原因是因为几乎灭绝的西伯利亚和蒙古的部落叫Evenki，从他们那里传给我这个礼物。通常他们只会为他们最受尊重的领袖制作这样的东西。它应该是他们对勇敢、勇气、领导力的欣赏的象征。讽刺的是，它也以一种非常特定的方式翻译成俄语。在俄语中，海象的阴茎意味着有点搞笑的东西，经常用来描述没什么。所以例如，如果你被某个政府或某个商业伙伴要求提供你不愿意提供的东西，你可以只是礼貌地在视频通话时在背景中放这个阴茎骨，并希望他们会。

  Pavel Durov (04:01:31) That’s a very interesting subject. The reason I have this is because the tribe that is almost gone and extinct in Siberia and Mongolia called Evenki, passed me this gift from them. Normally they would craft something like this only for their most respected leaders. It is supposed to be a token of their appreciation for bravery, courage, leadership. Ironically, it also translates in a very specific way into the Russian language. In Russian, walrus’s penis means something a bit funny, which is often used to describe nothing. So for example, if you’re being requested by say certain government or a certain business partner to provide something that you’re not willing to provide, you can just politely have this penis bone in the background while you’re doing the video call and hope then they would.

  Lex Fridman (04:02:52) 通过渗透明白深层信息。这是一种间接的反叛。顺便说一下，在前苏联，有，而且在历史上很多地方，有些反叛不得不采取这种象征的、隐喻的形式通过诗歌，通过儿童故事。这是人类语言和艺术的美，我们能够做到，说F-U，给任何试图压倒我们的力量。我们通过诗歌、通过艺术说F-U，有时通过一个相当大的海象阴茎骨携带，看起来要么是一个快乐的相扑摔跤手要么是某种猫。

  Lex Fridman (04:02:52) Through osmosis figure out the deep message. It is an indirect rebellion. By the way, in the former Soviet Union, there was, and a lot of places throughout history, some of the rebellion had to take this kind of symbolic, metaphoric form through poetry, through children’s stories. It’s the beauty of the human language and art that we’re able to do that, say F-U, to whatever forces that try to overpower us. We say F-U through poetry, through art, and sometimes through a rather large walrus penis bone carried by what appears to be either a happy sumo wrestler or a cat of some sort.

  Pavel Durov (04:03:39) 他们在机场问了很多关于这个海象阴茎骨的问题，在阿联酋这里和在法国，他们总是对这个东西非常感兴趣。

  Pavel Durov (04:03:39) They asked a lot of questions about this walrus’s penis bone in the airport, both here in the UAE and in France, they are always very interested in this thing.

  子女

  Children

  Lex Fridman (04:03:53) 似乎对你有多少孩子有混淆。经常说是超过100个。你能解释你有多少孩子吗？

  Lex Fridman (04:03:53) There seems to be some confusion over how many kids you have. It’s often said to be over 100. Can you explain how many kids you have?

  Pavel Durov (04:04:06) 这个问题的真实答案是我真的不知道我到底有多少生物孩子。因为在我生命中的某个时刻，大约15年前，我决定做一个精子捐赠者是个好主意。最初，我的一个朋友问我帮忙因为他们试图和他妻子生宝宝，他们经历了某些健康问题阻止他们自然方式。他问我，他告诉我，“我们不想只是依赖一些随机的匿名遗传材料。我们想要我们知道并尊重的人成为我们孩子的生物父亲。”我说，“你在开玩笑吧。听起来很荒谬。我们甚至在谈论什么？”

  Pavel Durov (04:04:06) The truthful answer to this question is I don’t really know how many biological kids I have exactly. Because at a certain point in my life, about 15 years ago, I decided that it was a good idea to be a sperm donor. Initially, a friend of mine asked me to help because they were trying to have a baby with his wife, and they experienced certain health issues that prevented them to do the natural way. And he asked me, he told me, “We don’t want to just rely on some random anonymous genetic material. We want somebody we know and respect to be the biological father of our kid.” And I said, “You got to be kidding me. Sounds ridiculous. What are we even talking about?”

  Pavel Durov (04:05:00) ……我是说，听起来很荒谬。他们在谈论什么？但然后我意识到这实际上是一个严肃的问题，他们不是唯一挣扎于此的夫妇。所以最终，我被说服去做更多。我不能说我对此令人难以置信的自豪，但我认为这是正确的事，特别是当时我想，“好吧，我可能在这个星球上没有太多时间了。事情越来越棘手。所以如果我能帮助一些夫妇生宝宝，让我们做吧。”

  Pavel Durov (04:05:00) … I mean, sounds ridiculous. What are they even talking about? But then I realized it’s actually a serious issue, and they were not the only couple struggling with that. So eventually, I got persuaded into doing more of it. I can’t say I am incredibly proud of that, but I think it was the right thing to do, particularly at the time when I thought, “Okay, I probably don’t have much time on this planet left. Things are getting trickier and trickier. So if I can help some couples have babies, let’s do it.”

  (04:05:37) 然后最近，当我在处理我的遗嘱时，我意识到我不应该在自然怀孕的孩子和只是我从未见过的生物孩子之间做出区分。只要他们有一天能建立与我的共享DNA，也许在30年后，他们必须有权分享我离开后的遗产。这在新闻中引起了很多噪音不知为什么。人们对这种新闻非常兴奋。我收到很多人声称他们是我的孩子的信息。我收到很多人要求我收养他们的请求。模因是无价的。但理解这不是大多数人做的事，我不认为有什么错。如果有的话，我认为更多人应该捐赠精子。

  (04:05:37) And then more recently, when I was working on my will, I realized that I shouldn’t make a distinction between the kids conceived naturally and the kids who are just my biological kids that I never seen. As long as they can establish their shared DNA with me someday, maybe in 30 years from now, they have to be entitled for a share of my estate after I’m gone. And that made a lot of noise in the news for some reason. People get very excited by this kind of news. I get a lot of messages from people claiming they’re my kids. I get a lot of requests from people asking me to adopt them. The memes were priceless. But understanding that it’s not a thing that most people do, I don’t see anything wrong with it. If anything, I think more people should be donating sperm.

  Lex Fridman (04:06:52) 所以我们应该说，100多个孩子来自那个。你也有自然怀孕的孩子。从财务角度来看这是一个相当大胆的决定平等对待他们所有人。也相当有趣的是你说他们在前几十年不会收到任何钱。你能描述那个想法吗？

  Lex Fridman (04:06:52) So we should say, the 100-plus kids is from that. You also have naturally conceived kids. It was a pretty bold decision from a financial perspective to treat them all equally. And also quite interesting was that you said that they don’t receive any money for the first few decades of their life. Can you describe that thinking?

  Pavel Durov (04:07:24) 是的，我认为过剩会瘫痪动机和意志力。这极其有害，特别是对年轻男孩，在他们可以为不是他们自己的成就而是他们父亲的成就或父亲的财富而自豪的环境中成长。这移除了发展他们自己技能的激励，移除了学习、工作的激励。所以我想如果他们要得到这笔钱，它应该是他们已经成年时才得到的东西。仍然有风险，但一个原因我决定将我可能留下的巨大财富分成一百或一百多人是它不会对每个后代太多。但同时，有些人做了计算，它仍然是每个孩子很多很多百万美元，所以我不确定它帮助太多。

  Pavel Durov (04:07:24) Yeah, I think overabundance paralyzes motivation and willpower. It’s extremely harmful, particularly for young boys, to grow up in an environment where they can be proud, not of their own achievements, but of their father’s achievements or their father’s wealth. This removes the incentive to work on developing their own skills, removes the incentive to study, to work. So I thought if they’re going to have this money, it should be something that they would only get when they’re already adult. It’s still risky, but one of the reasons I decided it makes more sense to divide this huge wealth that I’m likely to leave behind among a hundred or more than a hundred people is that it won’t be too much for every single descendant. But at the same time, some people did the calculation, it’s still many, many millions of dollars for each child, so I’m not sure it helps too much.

  Lex Fridman (04:09:12) 关于丰盛的话题，线下我们有很多迷人的哲学讨论。其中之一是关于老鼠天堂实验，也称为Universe 25。这是一个20世纪60年代和70年代初由行为学家John B. Calhoun进行的实验。我们也可以谈这个谈几个小时，我敢肯定。但这是一个有几百个单独老鼠隔间的实验，他们提供了无限的食物、水、筑巢、没有捕食者、稳定的温度和频繁清洁。基本上是老鼠的丰盛定义。

  Lex Fridman (04:09:12) On the topic of abundance, offline we had a lot of fascinating philosophical discussions. One of which was about the mouse paradise experiment, also known as Universe 25. It’s an experiment from the 1960s and early ’70s conducted by ethologist John B. Calhoun. We can talk about this one for hours also, I’m sure. But it was an experiment with a few hundreds of individual mice compartments, and they provided them with unlimited food, water nesting, no predators, stable temperatures, and frequent cleaning. Basically the definition of abundance as far as mice go.

  (04:09:56) 这个实验的有趣方面是起初人口翻倍，它增长非常快。但然后它趋于平稳，某些真正负面的社会事情开始发生，像母亲忽视杀死他们的幼崽，暴力攻击，过度性活动变得普遍。有些“美丽的”主要不活跃、精心打理的老鼠退缩，拒绝交配或互动。所以所有这些我们视为社会功能负面的社会品质开始出现因为丰盛。最后，崩溃。繁殖率崩溃，社会功能障碍传播到下一代，最终只是灭绝。它不仅仅是骤降到低水平，尽管那些持续的资源丰盛，它稳步下降到零。正如这个描述所说，最后一只老鼠死在未触及的食物和水周围。我的意思是，那里有关于丰盛的深刻智慧。你在整个对话中不同背景下提到过，似乎稀缺。似乎约束。似乎非丰盛对人类繁荣是必需的，这是一个反直觉的概念。它对老鼠是真的，我认为对人类也可能是真的。

  (04:09:56) The interesting aspect of this experiment is that at first the population doubled, it grew very quickly. But then it leveled off, and certain really negative social things started happening, like mothers neglected to kill their young, violent attacks, and hypersexual activity became widespread. Some “beautiful” ones, largely inactive, well-groomed mice withdrew, refusing to mate or interact. So all of these kind of societal qualities that we see as negative from the functioning of a society started to emerge because of the abundance. And finally, the collapse. The reproduction rates crashed, social dysfunction spread to the next generation, and eventually just went extinct. It didn’t just plummet to a low level, it plummeted steadily to zero despite the fact that those ongoing resource abundance. As this description states, the last mouse died surrounded by untouched food and water. I mean, there’s deep wisdom to that about abundance. You’ve mentioned this in different contexts throughout this conversation, is it seems like scarcity. It seems like constraints. It seems like non-abundance is essential for human flourishing, which is a counterintuitive notion. It’s true for mice, and I think it’s probably true for humans too.

  Pavel Durov (04:11:27) 我们进化来克服稀缺。几乎根据定义，在我们现在之前的生活中从来没有无限量的食物或娱乐。我们作为一个物种似乎失去了在你拥有一切一切失去意义的世界中识别目的的能力。限制是重要的。不过我认为它们应该来自内部。它应该是自我限制而不是为了创造目的和生活意义而限制。在某种程度上，我很幸运以一种非常反直觉的方式因为我穷苦长大。我青少年时没有钱。我有同一件夹克好几年，是在二手市场上买的。我父亲作为大学教授几个月收不到薪水因为当时俄罗斯国家几乎破产。我妈妈不得不兼两份工作来照顾我们。这不容易，但它也创造了目的。它创造了意义。它创造了优先级。它允许我们专注于重要的事情，允许我们发展我们的性格和智力能力。

  Pavel Durov (04:11:27) We have evolved to overcome scarcity. Almost by definition, there has never been such thing as infinite amount of food or entertainment in our lives before now. We seem as a species to lose our ability to identify purpose in the world where you have everything and everything loses its meaning. Restrictions are important. I think though that they should be coming from within. It should be self-restriction rather than a restriction in order to create purpose and meaning in life. In a way, I was lucky in a very counterintuitive way because I grew up poor. I didn’t have money when I was a teenager. I had the same jacket for years, which was bought on a secondhand marketplace. My father wouldn’t receive his salary as a university professor for months because the Russian state was almost bankrupt back then. My mom had to juggle two jobs to take care of us. It was not easy, but it also created purpose. It created meaning. It created priorities. It allowed us to focus on things that mattered, allowed us to develop our character and intellectual abilities.

  (04:13:17) 现在，如果我们拥有一切，为什么要做任何事？这些老鼠遭受了不可逆转的社会崩溃，这不是事故。这种实验被重复了无数次。在某个时刻，社会功能障碍和社会角色的侵蚀变得具有传染性，社会逐渐退化为一个混乱的个体集合无法照顾下一代甚至生产下一代，它就灭绝了。

  (04:13:17) Now, if we had everything, why do anything? These mice suffered societal collapse that was irreversible, and this is not an accident. This kind of experiment has been repeated countless times. At a certain point, social dysfunction and the erosion of social roles becomes contagious, and the society gradually degrades into a chaotic collection of individuals unable to take care of the next generation or even to produce the next generation, and it goes extinct.

  Lex Fridman (04:14:14) 这很迷人因为我们正在创造技术和这就是AI为我们的后代提出的问题要解决，AI很可能创造丰盛。所以我们可能像这些老鼠一样。无论是AI还是其他种类技术，它们越来越给我们所有人更多更多。它是一件好事：减少世界上的痛苦，增加生活质量。但当我们走向那个丰盛时，连接我们的织物，根植于我们的生物学由进化发展，它可能为我们创造一个真正的挑战。

  Lex Fridman (04:14:14) It’s fascinating because we’re creating technologies and this is what AI is proposing to our future generations as a problem to solve, which is, AI may very well create abundance. So we will be like these mice potentially. Whether it’s AI or other kinds of technologies, they increasingly give more and more to all of us. And it is a thing that is good: decrease the amount of suffering in the world, increase the quality of life. But as we reach towards that abundance, the fabric that connects us, rooted in our biology that’s developed by evolution, it might create a real challenge for us.

  Pavel Durov (04:14:54) 我们应该找到混乱和秩序之间的正确平衡，自我限制和创造自由之间。

  Pavel Durov (04:14:54) We should find the right balance between chaos and order, between self-restriction and freedom for creativity.

  父亲

  Father

  Lex Fridman (04:15:03) 你父亲最近庆祝了他的80岁生日。你和他有了一次对话。他给了你一些生活建议。我想你对我提到过他说的其中一件事是不要只是说你的原则，而是活出它们，以身作则。我认为这是你已经做得很好的东西。也许你可以说到你从你父亲那里学到了关于生活的什么，也许他在你和他生日对话中告诉你的教训。

  Lex Fridman (04:15:03) Your father recently celebrated his 80th birthday. You had a conversation with him. He gave you some life advice. I think you mentioned to me one of the things he said was not to just speak of your principles, but to live them, to lead by example. I think this is something you already do well. Maybe can you speak to what you’ve learned about life from your father, maybe some of the lessons he told you in the conversation you’ve had with him on his birthday.

  Pavel Durov (04:15:40) 我令人难以置信的幸运有我的父亲。他是一个写了无数关于古罗马和古罗马文学的书的人，几十篇科学论文，我总是记得他在工作。他会在80年代末90年代初用老式打字机忙着打他的书和文章。他是无情的。他对我和我兄弟的榜样是无价的。有些人犯这个错误认为你可以向未来一代或你的孩子灌输正确的原则通过对他们说事情，但孩子是聪明的。他们打折话语，他们看行动。所以观察我们的父亲本身就是一个大教训。不必要对他我们说什么。然后同时，他令人难以置信的耐心，情感上坚韧。

  Pavel Durov (04:15:40) I’m incredibly lucky to have my father. He’s a person who wrote countless books on Ancient Rome and Ancient Roman literature, dozens of scientific papers, and I always remember him working. He would be busy typing his books and articles in an old-school typewriter back in the late ’80s, early ’90s. He was relentless. The example he said to myself and my brother was priceless. Some people make this mistake of thinking that you can instill the right principles in the future generation or into your kids by saying things to them, but kids are smart. They discount words, they look at the actions. So observing our father was a big lesson by itself. It wasn’t necessary for him to say anything to us. And then at the same time, he was incredibly patient, emotionally resilient.

  (04:17:06) 我妈妈，伟大的女人，令人难以置信的聪明，受过高等教育，但她有时会试图测试我父亲的耐心。这是根植于我们生物学中的特质。有进化的解释。女人有时倾向于这样做，他总是展示令人难以置信的耐心。他最近告诉我，“你不应该给周围的人特别是你的孩子错误的例子，因为你可以十次中有九次做正确的事，但你犯一次错，他们会立刻抄袭它。如果你告诉你的孩子不要用智能手机，但你自己一直用智能手机，并想出各种复杂的、辉煌的解释为什么他们不应该用智能手机，它不会落地。它注定要失败。所以你以身作则。”

  (04:17:06) My mom, great woman, incredibly smart, highly educated, but she would sometimes try to test the patience of my father. It’s a trait rooted in our biology. There’s an evolutionary explanation for that. Women sometimes tend to do that, and he demonstrated incredible patience all the time. He told me recently, “You shouldn’t give the wrong example to the people around you and in particular to your kids, because you can do the right thing nine times out of 10, but you make a mistake once, and they will instantly copy it. If you’re telling your kids not to use a smartphone, but you’re using a smartphone all the time yourself, and coming up with all kinds of sophisticated, brilliant explanations why they shouldn’t be using a smartphone, it won’t land. It’s bound to fail. So you lead by example.”

  (04:18:19) 还有其他众多教训：保持积极，看光明的一面，永不绝望，诚实。他上次我和他说话时告诉我，AI可以有意识，可以有创造力，但它不能有良心。它不能是道德的。它不能有我们作为人类理解的深深根植的原则。它不能有诚信。

  (04:18:19) There are other numerous lessons: staying positive, looking at the bright side, never despair, be honest. He told me last time I spoke to him that AI can have consciousness, can be creative, but it cannot have conscience in a way. It cannot be moral. It cannot have deeply rooted principles. It cannot have integrity in the meaning that we understand it as human beings.

  Lex Fridman (04:18:57) 我爱你正在和你80岁的父亲谈话，你在谈论AGI和人类、人类精神、人类本性与AGI、AI能够实现的东西之间的区别。而良心是人类拥有的东西，知道对错的能力。

  Lex Fridman (04:18:57) I love the fact that you’re talking to your 80-year- old father, and you’re talking about AGI and the difference between human, the human spirit, human nature, and what AGI, AI is able to achieve. And conscience is the thing that humans have, the ability to know the right from wrong.

  Pavel Durov (04:19:23) 这是他给我的教训。我的人生目标之一是永不让他失望。

  Pavel Durov (04:19:23) This is the lesson that he gave me. One of my goals in life is never to disappoint him.

  量子永生

  Quantum immortality

  Lex Fridman (04:19:33) 我们谈到的另一件事，我认为是一个迷人的话题，是思想的力量，思维的力量。你相信你可以通过思考它，通过将其显现到存在来影响你的生活和现实吗？你怎么想？

  Lex Fridman (04:19:33) Another thing we’ve talked about, which I think is a fascinating topic, is the power of the mind, power of thought. Do you believe you can affect your life and reality by thinking about it, by manifesting it into being? What do you think?

  Pavel Durov (04:19:55) 有很多解释为什么它有效。大多数人同意的一件事是设定目标并保持积极和自信确实允许你实现你想实现的东西。不过很难相信你可以只是将事情显现到存在而不应用似乎逻辑的方向的努力。也许有些人存在可以只是坐在河岸边用他们的思想力量实现事情。但我不确定我是这些人之一。我总是发现更容易相信如果你将这种乐观和信仰与逻辑行动结合，那么它注定会成功。

  Pavel Durov (04:19:55) There are many explanations why it works. One thing most people agree on is that setting goals and staying positive and confident does allow you to achieve the things you want to achieve. It’s very hard to believe though that you can just manifest things into being without applying effort in the direction that seems to be logical. Maybe some people exist that can just sit on the bank of a river and materialize things by the power of their thought. But I’m not sure I’m one of these people. I always found it more easy to believe that if you couple this optimism and faith with logical action, then it is bound to be successful.

  Lex Fridman (04:21:04) 长时间的努力，艰苦工作，与积极的专注，思考那件事结合。

  Lex Fridman (04:21:04) Prolonged effort, hard work, coupled with positive focus, thinking about the thing.

  Pavel Durov (04:21:13) 哦是的，很多很多很多天。可以将我们的世界想象成一个高维宇宙，人类有能力用信念的力量导航通过它，与积极情感和逻辑思考结合。但我们正在进入一个深奥的领域。我们没有任何证明。但我们也知道我们可能在这一点上还没有发现这个宇宙的1%。

  Pavel Durov (04:21:13) Oh yes, over many, many, many days. It’s possible to imagine our world as a high dimensional universe where humans have the ability to navigate through it with the power of belief, which is coupled with positive emotion and logical thinking. But we are getting into an esoteric realm. We don’t have any proof of that. But we also know that we probably at this point haven’t discovered even 1% about this universe.

  Lex Fridman (04:22:00) 我完全同意你，而且我喜欢你思考它的方式。你之前告诉我也许有一种方式，用努力和专注的头脑，你可以塑造，你可以变形你周围的概率景观。这是一个很好的可视化方式，不知怎的我们的努力和我们的专注改变了可能和不太可能的事情。通过专注于它，我们使那件事越来越可能，至少作为一种估计，作为我们通过我们的思想和行动改变的场。然后有八十亿我们这样做，一起有一个集体智能创造我们看到的周围世界像老鼠。像你说的，我们作为人类一起是完美的。我喜欢你这么说。

  Lex Fridman (04:22:00) I agree with you fully, and I like what you said in the way you were thinking about it. You’ve told me before that maybe there’s a way that with effort and with the focused mind, you can shape, you can morph the landscape of probabilities around you. It’s a nice way to visualize it, that somehow our effort and our focus changes the things that are likely and less likely. And by focusing on it, we make the thing more and more likely, at least as an estimate, as the kind of field that we, through our thoughts and through our actions, change that field. And then there’s eight billion of us doing so, and together there’s this collective intelligence that creates the world we see around us like the mice. Like you said, us as a humanity together are perfect. I like that you said that.

  Pavel Durov (04:23:05) 我钦佩你相信我们一起体验这个的事实因为这不是明显的。也许我们每个人体验他或她自己的宇宙，也许每秒宇宙分裂成十亿不同的宇宙，一切能发生的事都发生。有一个宇宙，比如说，我在2013年死了。也许每次我死时，我实际上转移到一个平行宇宙当我不死时。然后它继续，在某些点我们实现了量子不朽当我们1000岁时，但很多来自其他现实版本的人认为我们早就走了。

  Pavel Durov (04:23:05) I admire your belief in the fact that we get to experience this together because it’s not obvious. Maybe each of us experiences his own or her own universe, and maybe every second of the universe splits into a billion of different universes, and everything that can happen happens. And there is a universe where, say, I died in 2013. Maybe every time I die, I actually get to shift to a parallel universe when I don’t die. And then it keeps going, and at certain points we achieve this quantum immortality when we’re 1,000 years old, but a lot of people from other versions of reality think we’re long gone.

  Lex Fridman (04:24:04) 是的。这是你向我解释的东西，量子不朽的想法，这是一个思想实验，我发现它深深迷人，人们应该研究它，这是量子力学多世界解释的一个非常清晰、干净的后果，我们作为有意识的存在不能体验我们的死亡。当我们分支到这些多世界时，只有活着的意识才能体验它。所以在某种意义上，是的，有很多宇宙。如果我们认真对待量子力学的多世界解释，有很多宇宙你在那里死了很多次，特别是你，我很高兴我们在这个宇宙我们能分享桌子与这个令人印象深刻的骨头，一点幽默，和今天涵盖的很多严肃话题。再一次，我不能说够。再一次，谢谢我。再一次，谢谢数亿跟随你工作的人，谢谢你为我们所有人的言论自由而战，并创建一个我们可以这样做的平台。非常感谢今天谈话，兄弟。认识你并能够称你为朋友是一种荣幸。

  Lex Fridman (04:24:04) Yeah. This is something you explained to me, the idea of quantum immortality, which is a thought experiment, which I find deeply fascinating, people should look into it, which is very crisp, clean consequence of the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics that we as conscious beings can’t experience our death. As we branch into these many worlds, only the living consciousnesses get to experience it. So in some sense, yeah, there’s many universes. If we were to seriously take the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, there’s many universes where you died many times, especially you, and I’m glad we’re in the universe where we get to share the table with this impressive bone, a little humor, and a lot of serious topics covered today. Once again, I can’t say enough. Again, thank you from me. Again, thank you from hundreds of millions of people that follow your work, for you fighting for the freedom of all of us to speak and creating a platform where we can do so. Thank you so much for talking today, brother. It’s been an honor getting to know you and to be able to call you a friend.

  Pavel Durov (04:25:22) 谢谢你这么说。我也对你和我在这个现实版本中发生的事实令人难以置信的感激，至少还没有死，希望我们在未来的几年中能一起度过更多有趣的时刻。

  Pavel Durov (04:25:22) Thank you for saying that. I’m also incredibly grateful to you and to the fact that I happened to be in this version of reality when I haven’t died, at least yet, and hopefully we’ll get to spend more fun moments in the years to come together.

  Lex Fridman (04:25:44) 谢谢，兄弟。

  Lex Fridman (04:25:44) Thank you, brother.

  (04:25:45) 感谢收听与Pavel Durov的这次对话。要支持这个播客，请查看描述中的我们的赞助商。现在让我试着表达一些我一直在想的事情。如果你想提交问题或话题像这样让我在未来谈论，去lexfridman.com/ama。

  (04:25:45) Thank you for listening to this conversation with Pavel Durov. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. Now, let me try to articulate some things I’ve been thinking about. If you’d like to submit questions or topics like this for me to talk about in the future, go to lexfridman.com/ama.

  卡夫卡

  Kafka

  (04:26:05) 我想借此机会谈论弗朗茨·卡夫卡，我最喜欢的作家之一。他一直在我脑海中的原因是他的作品《审判》和Pavel Durov在法国的案件，让我们说，有诡异的平行，既隐喻地也字面地。当然，《审判》是一部虚构作品，但我认为经常有用去文学的超现实世界，甚至像1984、动物农场、美丽新世界、《审判》、《城堡》、《变形记》，甚至阿尔贝·加缪的《瘟疫》这样的过顶反乌托邦品种，来理解我们的真实世界和我们有潜力一起走下的破坏性路径，这也有希望帮助我们理解如何避免这样做。

  (04:26:05) I’d like to use this opportunity to talk about Franz Kafka, one of my favorite writers. The reason he has been on my mind is that his work The Trial and the case of Pavel Durov in France has, let’s say, eerie parallels, both metaphorically and literally. Of course, The Trial is a work of fiction, but I think it is often useful to go to the surreal world of literature, even over-the-top dystopian variety like 1984, Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Trial, The Castle Metamorphosis, even The Plague by Albert Camus, all to understand our real world and the destructive paths we have the potential to go down together, which also hopefully helps us understand how to avoid doing so.

  (04:26:55) 所以让我放大并谈论弗朗茨·卡夫卡。他是谁？他是一个保险职员，晚上写作。他年轻去世，几乎完全未知，他要求烧掉他的手稿。幸运的是对我们来说，他的朋友马克斯·布罗德拒绝这样做，给了我们我认为是20世纪最伟大的作家之一的作品。在他的作品中，卡夫卡写了关于通过机构权力的迷宫将人类冷酷机器般还原为案件档案。他写了关于即使没有犯罪也感觉内疚的感觉，或者更一般地，他写了关于焦虑的感觉，这是现代混乱世界中人类状况的一部分。

  (04:26:55) So let me zoom out and speak about Franz Kafka. Who was he? He was an insurance clerk who wrote at night. He died young and almost completely unknown, and he asked for his manuscripts to be burned. Luckily for us, his friend, Max Brod refused to do so, giving us the work of what I consider to be one of 20th century’s greatest writers. In his work, Kafka wrote about the cold machine-like reduction of humans to case files through the labyrinth of institutional power. He wrote about an individual’s feeling of guilt even when a crime has not been committed, or more generally, he wrote about the feeling of anxiety that is part of the human condition in our modern, chaotic world.

  (04:27:42) 他的写作风格是使用短的、陈述性的句子来描述超现实和荒谬，从而有效地，我认为，传达体验的感觉而不是简单描述体验。例如，著名地，他的作品《变形记》以以下几行开头，“当格里高尔·萨姆萨从不安的梦中醒来一个早晨时，他发现自己在床上变成了一个巨大的昆虫。他躺在他的硬盔甲般的背上，当他稍微抬起头时，他可以看到他的圆顶般的棕色腹部分成僵硬的拱形段，上面被子几乎无法保持位置，即将完全滑落。他的众多腿，与他的大部分体积相比可怜地细，在他眼前无助地挥动。”

  (04:27:42) His writing style was to use short, declarative sentences to describe the surreal and the absurd, and in so doing, effectively, I think, convey the feeling of an experience versus simply describing the experience. For example, famously, his work, The Metamorphosis, opens with the following lines, “As Gregor Samsa awoke one morning from uneasy dreams, he found himself transformed in his bed into a gigantic insect. He was lying in his hard armor-plated back, and when he lifted his head a little, he could see his dome-like brown belly divided into stiff arched segments, on top of which, the bed-quilt could hardly keep in position and was about to slide off completely. His numerous legs, which were pitifully thin compared to the rest of his bulk, waved helplessly before his eyes.”

  (04:28:38) 卡夫卡，我认为，有效地使用被变成一个巨型虫子卡在背上的形象来传达对他的家庭、他的工作、对社会的无助和无用的感觉。感觉对每个人都是负担，被非人化、疏远和遗弃。感觉只有在他为他的工作或家庭服务某种功能时才暂时有价值，否则很快被丢弃。我可能会在另一个时间更深入谈论这部作品，因为它是如此令人难忘，我认为它是对现代社会中许多人的存在负担的如此深刻描述。

  (04:28:38) Kafka, I think, effectively uses this image of being transformed into a giant bug stuck on his back to convey a feeling of helplessness and uselessness to his family, to his job, to society. The feeling of being a burden to everyone, dehumanized, alienated, and abandoned. The feeling of being only temporarily valued as long as he served some function for his job or for his family, and quickly discarded otherwise. I will probably talk about this work in more depth at another time, because it is so haunting, and I think it is such a profound description of the burden of existence in modern society for many people.

  (04:29:24) 但在这里，让我谈论他的另一部作品，《审判》。在这部小说中，主要人物约瑟夫·K是一个成功的银行官员，他在生日那天被一个权威无处不在又无处可寻的模糊法庭逮捕，因为一个未指定的罪行。他导航一个迷宫般的法律系统，每个人都知道他的案件，但没有人能真正解释它。所谓的审判从来没有以任何常规意义上发生。相反，约瑟夫·K的整个生活成为导致审判的程序。在某种意义上，审判是被指控的状态本身，一个永久的条件而不是单一事件。卡夫卡的天才作品是展示现代机构不需要举行审判；它们只需要让你处于审判的永久迫在眉睫的可能性中。

  (04:29:24) But here, let me talk about another of his work, The Trial. In this novel, the main character, Josef K, is a successful bank officer, and he’s arrested on his birthday for an unspecified crime by a kind of amorphous court whose authority is everywhere and nowhere. He navigates a labyrinth-like legal system where everyone knows about his case, but no one can really explain it. The so-called trial never actually occurs in any conventional sense. Instead, Josef K’s entire life becomes the proceedings leading up to the trial. In a sense, the trial is the state of being accused itself, a permanent condition rather than a singular event. Kafka’s geniusness work was to show that modern institutions don’t need to hold trials; they just need to hold you in the permanent looming possibility of one.

  (04:30:21) 对这个案件的公众关注，既积极也消极，给约瑟夫·K一种不断被周围人判断的感觉。这磨损了他的头脑，他的心理健康开始恶化。在某种意义上，审判不需要定罪他的罪。内部心理动荡和外部社会审查执行了定罪和最终处决。当在他被捕后正好一年时，约瑟夫·K被两个男人访问，礼貌地带他穿过城市到一个废弃的采石场，在约瑟夫·K没有抵抗的情况下刺中心脏。对我来说，审判显示暴政的最终胜利不是当它杀死你时，或当你为刀子保持不动时，不是因为你被迫，而是因为你已经被耗尽到顺从。再一次，这是一个关于官僚的无灵魂在扼杀人类精神的令人难忘的故事。我强烈推荐这本短书，我可能会在未来甚至更多谈论它。我不认为对我来说特别有用去说到《审判》和Pavel Durov案件之间的任何平行，因为毕竟，《审判》是虚构的。但在积极的一面，让我报告，据我所见，Pavel在整个过程中保持了乐观和一般积极的态度。我在这种案件中总是害怕的是官僚系统可以耗尽人们，耗尽他们到投降。我在Pavel身上没有看到那个。我不认为他知道如何放弃或屈服，无论他处于多大压力下。再一次，这对我来说真正鼓舞人心。

  (04:30:21) Public attention to this case, both positive and negative, gives Josef K a feeling of constantly being judged by people around him. This wears at his mind, and his psychological well-being begins to deteriorate. In a sense, the trial doesn’t need to convict him. The internal psychological turmoil and the external social scrutiny performs a conviction and the eventual execution. When exactly one year after his arrest, Josef K is visited by two men, walked him courteously through the city to an abandoned quarry, and stabbed him in the heart without Josef K resisting. To me, the trial shows that tyranny’s final victory isn’t when it kills you, or when you hold still for the knife, not because you’re forced, but because you’ve been exhausted into submission. Once again, it is a haunting story of the soullessness of bureaucracy in its suffocation of the human spirit. I highly recommend this short book, and I’ll probably talk about it even more in the future. I don’t think it’s especially useful for me to speak to any parallels between The Trial and Pavel Durov’s case, because after all, The Trial is a work of fiction. But on a positive note, let me report that as far as I saw, Pavel has maintained optimism and a general positive outlook throughout this whole process. What I always fear in such cases is that a bureaucratic system can wear people down, exhaust them into surrendering. I saw none of that with Pavel. I don’t think he knows how to give up or give in, no matter how much pressure he’s under. Again, this is truly inspiring to me.

  (04:32:09) 另外，现在我们正在谈论它，让我提到卡夫卡的一些其他作品对我来说是感人的。《城堡》有类似于《审判》的对权威的荒谬不可及的描述，对噩梦般的官僚。城堡中的人物也叫K。两个官僚都通过耗尽、无尽的推迟、程序、等候室运作。又一次，与现代非常相关。

  (04:32:09) Also, now that we’re talking about it, let me mention some other of Kafka’s work that was moving to me. The Castle has similar description as The Trial does of the absurd inaccessibility of those in authority, of the nightmarish bureaucracy. The character in The Castle is also named K. Both bureaucracies operate through exhaustion, endless deferrals, procedures, waiting rooms. Again, highly relevant to modern times.

  (04:32:37) 我也可以强烈推荐卡夫卡的《在刑罚殖民地》和《饥饿艺术家》。两者都太有趣和奇怪，无法在这里深入解释。但让我说，《饥饿艺术家》是一个我认为与我们现代注意力经济相关的故事，那里很多人想成名。它讲述了一个，可以说，专业禁食者在笼子里表演饥饿作为娱乐，他慢慢失去观众给更新的奇观，以至于最终当他饿死自己时，没有人在乎。

  (04:32:37) I can also highly recommend Kafka’s In The Penal Colony and Hunger Artist. Both are too interesting and weird to explain in depth here. But let me say, the Hunger Artist is a story that I think is relevant to our modern-day attention economy, where so many people want to be famous. It tells the story of a, let’s say, professional faster who performs starvation in a cage as entertainment, and he slowly loses his audience to newer spectacles, so much so that eventually when he starves himself to death, nobody cares.

  (04:33:14) 卡夫卡的作品很沉重。它作为文明可能成为的噩梦的警告，然而我认为它也是乐观的来源，因为当我们能在卡夫卡的故事中认出我们自己世界的元素时，当我们能在《审判》或《城堡》中看到我们机构的元素时，当我们能在格里高尔·萨姆萨中看到我们自己时，我们不仅仅是在诊断疾病，我们是在证明我们仍然是人类并且足够聪明去看到它并命名它。卡夫卡给了我们目标：抵抗试图非人化我们的这样的系统，并确保个人自由和人类精神继续繁荣。我认为它会。我对我们人类有信心。我爱你们所有人。

  (04:33:14) Kafka’s work is heavy. It serves as a warning for the nightmare that civilization can become, and yet I think it is also a source of optimism, because when we can recognize elements of our own world in Kafka’s stories, when we can see elements of our institutions in The Trial or in The Castle, when we can see ourselves in Gregor Samsa, we’re not just diagnosing the disease, we’re proving that we’re still human and wise enough to see it and name it. Kafka gave us the goal: to resist against such systems that tried to dehumanize us and to ensure that individual freedom and the human spirit keep flourishing. I think it will. I have faith in us humans. I love you all.

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• Telegram创始人帕维尔·杜罗夫2025年10月播客实录 | 中英文完整版精译 Part3

  2025-10-23

  LZN

  science

  thinking

  书童按：本篇是帕维尔·杜罗夫（Pavel Durov）于2025年10月接受Lex Fridman的播客采访实录，Pavel是端到端加密通信软件Telegram的创始人兼CEO。其采访中涉及精简团队、高度自动化、法国被捕、审查、企业家的困境等话题，精彩绝伦，令人击节称赞。初稿采用AI机器翻译，经自动化中英混排，书童仅做简单校对及批注。原稿中英文混排近7万字，书童将分为Part1-4发出，本篇是第三部分，以飨诸君。

  高强度教育

  Intense education

  (01:33:24) 好的，我们喝了点茶，回来了。让我们回到很多年前，回到最开始。你提到你上过一所教育强度非常大的学校，所以我认为看看那种教育中一些强大的方面会非常有趣，从语言到数学。你能具体描述一下其中一些严格的方面以及你从中收获了什么吗？

  Lex Fridman (01:33:24) All right, we had some tea, we’re back. Let’s go back a bunch of years to the beginning. You mentioned you went to school with super intensive education so I thought it’d be really interesting to look at some of the powerful aspects of that education from the languages to the math. Can you actually describe some of the rigorous aspects of it and what you gained from it?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:33:48) 在11岁的时候，我得到了一个机会，进入了我当时居住的圣彼得堡的一所实验学校，你必须通过严格的考试才能被录取。这所学校的理念是，如果你试图将尽可能多的信息塞进一个青少年的大脑中，重点放在数学和外语上，那么学生的大脑会发生一些变化，使得学生能够理解大多数其他学科。但结果我们有一个班级，它没有任何单一的重点，而是广泛涉及许多学科。你至少要学习四门外语，包括拉丁语、英语、法语、德语，此外，你还可以学习古希腊语。你会有像生物化学或精神分析、进化心理学这样的课程。这个班级与同一所学校（属于圣彼得堡国立大学，称为学术体育馆）的其他班级的不同之处在于，不像其他班级专注于某个单一学科，如物理、数学或历史，这个班级试图从所有这些专业班级中汲取精华，并将其融入一个课程体系中。由于这是一个实验班，不可能成为一个全优生，在所有科目上都出类拔萃，甚至尝试这样做都被认为是疯狂的。

  Pavel Durov (01:33:48) At the age of 11, I got the opportunity to enter an experimental school in St. Petersburg where I lived and you had to pass a rigorous test to get accepted. The idea behind the school was that, if you try to squeeze as much information as possible into a brain of a teenager making a focus on maths and foreign languages, then there will be some changes in the brain of the student that will allow the student to understand most other disciplines. But we had a class, as a result, that didn’t have any single focus, it was very widespread across a lot of disciplines. You would have four foreign languages at least including Latin, English, French, German, in addition, you can get ancient Greek. You would have classes like biochemistry or psychoanalysis, evolutionary psychology. The difference of this class as opposed to other classes in the same school which was part of the St. Petersburg State University called academic gymnasium was that, unlike other classes which were specialized in some single subject like physics or maths or history, this one tried to get the best from all of these specialized classes and bring into one curriculum. Since it was an experimental class, it wasn’t possible to become a straight A student, to be excellent in all the subject, it’s always considered crazy to even try.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:35:48) 所以，它假设没有人能够应对，你只是在挑战人类思维的极限。四门语言并行，数学，进化心理学，就是用信息淹没大脑，看看会发生什么。

  Lex Fridman (01:35:48) So, it’s assumed nobody’s able to handle it, you’re just pushing the limits of the human mind. Four languages in parallel, math, evolutionary psychology, just overwhelming the mind and see what happens.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:35:59) 是的，看看会发生什么。这是一项实验，而且是在90年代中期，记得吗，那时候俄罗斯，尤其是它的教育系统，不像今天这样规范。它处于俄罗斯历史的两个阶段之间，即苏联历史和21世纪现代俄罗斯历史之间的中间时期。无论如何，我从那段经历中学到了很多。首先，我进入这所学校是因为我不断被其他学校开除。

  Pavel Durov (01:35:59) Yes, see what happens. This was an experiment and it was in the middle of the ’90s, remember, when Russia, particularly its educational system, wasn’t regulated as much as it is today. It was in the middle between the two stages of the Russian history, the Soviet’s history and the modern Russian history of the 21st century. In any case, I learned a lot from that experience. First of all, why I got into this school is because I kept being kicked out from other schools.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:36:38) 挑战权威？

  Lex Fridman (01:36:38) Challenging authority?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:36:39) 我所有科目都很好，但行为表现不好。在90年代初的苏联，我们有这种行为评分，也许他们今天还有，我不确定。我的行为表现非常差，总是挑战老师，总是指出他们的错误。

  Pavel Durov (01:36:39) I was good at all subjects but not behavior. We had this behavior grade in the Soviet Union in early ’90s, perhaps they even have it today, I’m not sure. I was very bad at behavior, always challenging the teachers, always pointing out their mistakes.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:36:59) 顺便说一下，这并不完全是坏事，对吧？如果你回头看，这对年轻人来说是有一定价值的，也许要带着尊重，但挑战权威，挑战旧的智慧，对吧？

  Lex Fridman (01:36:59) By the way, that’s not such a bad thing, right? If you were looking back, there’s some value to that for young people to, maybe respectfully, but challenge the authority, the wisdom of old, right?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:37:14) 我认为我非常幸运能够这样做，并且最终能够安然无恙，因为通常情况下，如果你不断挑战权威，你只会被所有学校开除，然后一事无成。所以，我最终进入了一所学校，在那里挑战老师虽然不是完全没问题，但却是你可以做的事情，然后你会和老师展开辩论，通常他们会允许你表达你的观点，然后一些客观的真理可能会由此产生。

  Pavel Durov (01:37:14) I think I was very lucky to be able to do that and to be able to get away with it in the end because, normally, if you keep challenging authorities, you just get kicked out of all schools and then you end up nowhere. So, I eventually got into a school where challenging teachers was not fully okay but it was something that you could do and then you would start a debate with the teacher and normally they would allow you to express your point of view and then some objective truth may come out of it as a result.

  (01:37:58) 但在那个时候，我对我的生活感到相当无聊，每个青少年都会到达一个点，当他们有这种存在主义危机时。生活的意义是什么？我到底在这里做什么？在某个时刻，我决定，既然我反正必须上学，我不妨尝试做一些不可能的事情，成为最好的学生，并在每一个科目上都得到A，或者我们在俄罗斯系统中称之为五分，这让我忙了一阵子。

  (01:37:58) But at that point, I was pretty bored with my life, every teenager gets to a point when they have this sort of existential crisis. What’s the point of life? What am I even doing here? At some point, I decided, since I have to go to school anyway, I might as well try to do something impossible and become the best student and get an A or what we called five in the Russian system on every single subject and that kept me busy for a while.

  (01:38:40) 这非常困难，因为你没有足够的时间。即使你只是不停地学习，不做任何其他事情，你也没有任何剩余时间来准备所有的家庭作业、任务并为所有考试做好准备。所以，我最终利用了课间休息时间，但我达到了我想要达到的结果。我在每个科目都得到了优秀的分数，这让我高兴了一阵子。

  (01:38:40) It was incredibly difficult because you didn’t have enough time. Even if you just studied all the time, not doing anything else, you didn’t have any time left to prepare all the homework, tasks and get ready for all the tests. So, I ended up using the breaks between classes but I get to the result I wanted to get to. I got the excellent mark in every subject and that kept me happy for a while.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:39:19) 通过同时学习外语并进行如此多样化的学习，你对一个有效的教育系统有什么理解？如果你要从头开始为年轻人设计一个教育系统，尤其是在21世纪，那会是什么样子？你曾发文谈到数学作为一切基础的价值。

  Lex Fridman (01:39:19) What did you understand about an effective education system from studying foreign language at the same time doing such a diversity? If you were to design an education system from scratch for young people, especially in the 21st century, what would that look like? You posted about the value of mathematics as a foundation for everything.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:39:39) 是的。我仍然认为数学是必不可少的。它能塑造你的大脑，它教你依靠逻辑思维，将大问题分解成小部分，按正确的顺序排列，耐心地解决它们，如果不行就再试一次。这与你编程、项目管理以及当你创办自己的公司时需要的技能完全相同。这是学校里少数几个鼓励你发展自己思维，而不是依赖别人怎么说、只是重复他们观点的科目之一。这是极其宝贵的。当然，一旦你擅长数学，你就可以把它应用到物理、工程、编码中。大多数最成功的科技公司创始人和首席执行官都非常擅长数学和编码，这并不奇怪，因为归根结底，你依赖的是相同的思维技能。

  Pavel Durov (01:39:39) Yeah. I still think math is essential. It’s something that shapes your brain, it teaches you to rely on your logical thinking to split big problems into smaller parts, put them in the right sequence, solve them patiently, trying again if it doesn’t work. This is exactly the same skill you’ll need in programming and project management and start it when you start your own company. And it’s one of the few subjects to school which encourages you to develop your own thinking as opposed to rely on what other people have to say and just repeating their opinions. That is extremely valuable. And of course, once you’re good at math, you can apply it in physics, in engineering, in coding. And it’s not surprising that most of the most successful tech founders and CEOs are very good at matters in coding because, ultimately, it’s the same mental skill that you rely on.

  (01:41:05) 但在当时学校里，我也意识到了另一点，那就是竞争确实非常重要，竞争是关键。这是激励许多青少年的因素，如果有学校存在，如果你把竞争从教育系统中移除，你最终会迫使孩子们开始在其他地方竞争，例如，在电子游戏中。这是你现在在许多国家看到的趋势，包括西方，当善意的当局或父母说我们不希望我们的孩子压力太大，我们不希望他们感到焦虑，所以让我们取消所有公开的评分系统，所有这些谁赢谁输的排名，我们不要任何这些。

  (01:41:05) But back then in the school, I realized something else as well, it’s that competition is really important, competition is key. This is what motivates a lot of teenagers when there is school and, if you remove competition out of the education system, you end up forcing kids to start competing elsewhere, for example, in video games. It’s a trend you see now in many countries, including in the West, when well-meaning authorities or parents say we don’t want our kids to be too stressed, we don’t want them to feel anxiety so let’s just get rid of all the public grading system, all these rankings of who won, who lost, we don’t want any of that.

  (01:42:06) 其中一部分是合理的，但结果是，一些孩子失去了兴趣。是的，你消除了失败者，但你最终也消除了赢家。然后，如果你在那个年龄段对孩子过度保护，他们长大，从学校、大学毕业，他们仍然没有为现实生活做好准备，因为现实生活是为工作、晋升、客户而不断竞争，而且更加残酷。

  (01:42:06) And part of it is justified but, as a result, some kids lose interest. Yes, you eliminate the losers but you end up eliminating the winners as well. And then, if you are overprotective of the kids in that age, they grow up, graduate schools, the universities and they’re still not prepared for real life because real life is constant competition for jobs, for promotions, for customers and it’s more brutal.

  (01:42:47) 你最终得到的是高自杀率、高失业率，以及所有你现在在许多国家看到的负面趋势和事情，这些国家认为从他们的教育系统中消除竞争是个好主意。他们仍然坚持，仍然认为竞争是坏事，他们也在一定程度上试图从他们的经济中消除竞争，说我们要确保失败者不会输，赢家不会得到太多，但结果，他们使他们整个系统、整个经济竞争力下降。

  (01:42:47) What you have as a result is high suicide rates, high unemployment, all the things and negative trends you see now in many countries which thought eliminating competition from their education system was a good idea. They still persist, they still think competition is a bad thing, they try to eliminate competition from their economy as well to an extent saying we are going to make sure the losers don’t lose and the winners don’t get too much but, as a result, they make their entire systems less competitive, their entire economies.

  (01:43:34) 其中一些在欧洲的国家现在正努力跟上大东方国家、韩国、新加坡、日本和其他教育系统基于无情竞争的地方。所以，这是任何文明都必须做出的艰难选择。我们是支持竞争，理解它最终会带来科学技术的进步和整个社会的繁荣，还是我们移除竞争，认为我们可以以某种方式保护后代免受竞争不可避免地带来的压力。

  (01:43:34) Some of them in Europe are now struggling to keep up with BigEast, with South Korea, with Singapore, with Japan and other places where the education system was based on ruthless competition. So, this is a hard choice any civilization has to make. We support competition understanding that, eventually, it leads to progress in science and technology and abundance for society at large or we remove competition thinking that somehow we can shield the future generations from the stress that competition inevitably causes.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:44:22) 是的，这源于一种良好的同情本能，你不想让不擅长某事的人感到痛苦，但似乎挣扎是生活的一部分，你要么早点经历，要么晚点经历。确实，这是个很好的观点，竞争似乎是技能发展的一个非常强大的驱动力，就像你提到的，追求精通。人性中有某种东西，特别是对年轻人来说，如果你能在某件事上竞争，你就会被强烈驱动去把那件事做好。如果你能像大东方国家那样，像你提到的许多国家那样，在教育系统中引导这种竞争，那么你将培养出许多杰出的人才。

  Lex Fridman (01:44:22) Yeah, it’s grounded in a good instinct of compassion, you don’t want people who suck at a thing to feel pain but it seems like struggle is a part of life, either you do it earlier or you do it later. And it’s true, that’s such a good point that competition does seem to be a really powerful driver of skill development, like you mentioned, pursuing mastery. There’s something in human nature that, especially for young people, if you can compete at a thing, you’re going to be really driven to get good at that thing. If you can direct that in the education system as BigEast does, as many nations like you mentioned do, then you’re going to develop a lot of brilliant people.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:45:00) … 那样做，那么你将培养出许多杰出的人才，有韧性的人，准备好在这个世界上创造史诗般成就的人。

  Lex Fridman (01:45:00) … do, then you’re going to develop a lot of brilliant people, resilient people, people that are ready to create epic shit in the world.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:45:07) 我认为有大量证据证明我们在生物学上就被设定为要竞争，并建立我们对自己品质和才能的理解，这种理解是相对于我们周围其他人的，这是社会自我调节的方式之一。

  Pavel Durov (01:45:07) I think there is a lot of evidence proving that we are biologically wired to compete and establish our understanding of what our qualities are and talents are in relation to other people around us, and this is one of the ways society self-regulates.

  尼古拉·杜罗夫

  Nikolai Durov

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:45:30) 说到竞争，你的哥哥尼古拉，他是一位数学家、程序员、密码学专家。他赢得了IMO国际数学奥林匹克竞赛，获得了三次金牌，ICPC编程竞赛，两次获奖，拥有两个数学博士学位，你们已经合作多年，创造了我们一直在谈论的令人难以置信的技术。那么你从你哥哥身上学到了关于生活的什么？

  Lex Fridman (01:45:30) Speaking of competition, your brother, Nikolai, he’s a mathematician, programmer, expert in cryptography. He has won the IMO International Mathematics Olympiad, he got gold medal three times, ICPC programming, two times, has two PhDs in mathematics, and you have worked together for many years creating incredible technologies that we’ve been talking about. So what have you learned about just life from your brother?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:46:02) 嗯，首先，我必须说我从我哥哥那里学到了几乎所有的东西，我所知道的一切，因为当我们还是孩子的时候，我们睡在同一间卧室里，床相隔几英尺，我不停地用问题打扰他。我会问他关于恐龙、星系、黑洞和尼安德特人的问题，所有我能想到的东西，他是我在那个我们还不能上网的时代里的维基百科。他是一个独特的神童，可能是十亿里挑一的。

  Pavel Durov (01:46:02) Well, first of all, I must say I learned pretty much everything from my brother, everything I know, because when we were used to be kids, we slept in the same bedroom, like beds a few feet away from each other, and I kept bugging him with questions. I would ask him about dinosaurs and galaxies and black holes and Neanderthals, everything I could think of, and he was my Wikipedia back in the time when we didn’t have internet access. He’s a unique prodigy kid, probably one of a billion.

  (01:46:45) 我想他三岁就开始阅读，而且他在数学上进步得非常快，到了六岁的时候，他已经能阅读非常复杂的天文学书籍了。有时当他在公共场所这样做时，比如公共汽车或地铁上，我妈妈会受到目睹此事的人的批评。他们会对她说：”你为什么用这本严肃的书来戏弄你自己的小孩？很明显这孩子不能理解里面的所有东西。这太复杂了，连我们都不理解里面的任何东西。里面有一些公式，”而他当时已经在吸收这些知识了。他就是有这种对信息的渴求。

  (01:46:45) He started reading at the age of three, I think, and he pretty fast got so advanced in maths, that by the age of six, he could already read really sophisticated books on astronomy. Sometimes when he did it in public places, like buses or metro, my mom was criticized by people who were witnessing it. They would tell her, “Why are you mocking your own kid with this serious book? It’s obvious that the kid can’t understand everything there. It’s too complicated even we don’t understand anything there. There’s some formulas,” and he was already sucking in this knowledge. He just has this thirst for information.

  (01:47:39) 所以他是各种伟大事实、有用东西、鼓舞人心事物的来源。他教给了我几乎我所知道的一切。同时，他极其谦虚和善良，我认为这是许多自以为聪明但缺乏普遍智慧的人所欠缺的。大多数情况下，真正聪明的人，他们也善良且富有同情心。

  (01:47:39) So he was the source of all kind of great facts, useful things, inspiring things. He taught me pretty much everything I know. At the same time, he’s incredibly modest and kind, and this is something I think a lot of people that think they’re smart but not generally intelligent lack. More often than not, people who are truly intelligent, they’re also kind and compassionate.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:48:18) 他是那样的人吗？

  Lex Fridman (01:48:18) And he is that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:48:20) 绝对是。

  Pavel Durov (01:48:20) Definitely.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:48:21) 你实际上大部分时间都远离公众视线。你很少接受采访，相当低调，但你的哥哥是另一个级别的。他一直远离公众视线。这背后是什么原因？

  Lex Fridman (01:48:21) You actually have been staying out of the public eye for the most part. You’ve done very few interviews, you’re pretty low-key, but your brother is in another level. He’s been staying out of the public eye. What’s behind that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:48:34) 部分原因是他天生的谦逊。他不需要这样做。他没有那种炫耀、吹嘘事情的冲动。我也试图避免，但在某个时刻，我意识到我过于私密、过于隐秘变成了一种负担，因为它制造了这种空白，这种空虚，那些非常不喜欢 Telegram 的个人和组织愿意用不准确的信息来填补，他们愿意传播关于 Telegram 的叙事，这可能导致奇怪的情况，其中一些我们之前讨论过。例如，那个法国的调查。

  Pavel Durov (01:48:34) Part of it is his natural modesty. He doesn’t need to do it. He doesn’t feel this urge to show off, brag about stuff. I tried to avoid it as well, but at a certain point I realized that me being too private, too secretive becomes a liability because it creates this void, this emptiness that people and organizations that don’t like Telegram very much are willing to fill with inaccurate information and they’re willing to spread the narratives about Telegram, which can result in strange situations, some of which we discussed earlier. For example, this French investigation.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:49:32) 是的，我越来越了解你，你身上有一种深刻的诚信，我认为向世界展示这一点是好的。用户隐私面临很多攻击向量，我认为最重要、最后的保护墙是实际运营公司的人，所以在某种程度上，你出现在那里展示真实的自我是很重要的。

  Lex Fridman (01:49:32) Yeah, I’ve gotten to know you more and more and there’s a deep integrity to you that I think is good to show to the world. There’s a lot of attack vectors on user privacy and I think the most important, the last wall of protection is the actual people that are running the company, so it’s important to some degree for you to be out there to showing your true self.

  编程和电子游戏

  Programming and video games

  (01:49:55) 所以我们应该说一下，你虽然没有提到，但你从小就是一名程序员。你10岁开始编码。你最早构建的东西是在11岁时制作的一款电子游戏，然后最终在10年后，21岁时，你独立编程了VK的最初版本。你能跟我谈谈你的编程历程，以及它如何引导到VK的创建吗？VK的技术栈是什么？主要是PHP吗？你是如何学会编程网站，所有这一切的？

  (01:49:55) So we should say that also you didn’t mention, but you were a programmer from an early age. You started coding at 10. First things you built are a video game at 11, and then eventually 10 years later, 21, you programmed the initial versions of VK single-handedly. Can you talk to me about your programming journey that led to the creation of VK? What was the VK stack? Is it PHP mostly? How did you figure out how to program websites, all of that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:50:27) 是的，我起初可能对网站不那么感兴趣。我10岁的时候甚至还不能上网，但我喜欢电子游戏。我没有足够的游戏，这种稀缺性迫使我开始制作它们，更多的是电脑游戏，只是为了自己玩。

  Pavel Durov (01:50:27) Yeah, I wasn’t as interested in probably websites at first. I didn’t even have access to the internet when I was 10 years old, but I liked video games. I didn’t have enough of them and the scarcity forced me to start building them, more computer games, just to play myself.

  (01:50:49) 这实际上是一件有趣的事情，我们有时没有意识到，但稀缺导致创造力，来自苏联或其他无法获得太多现代技术，更重要的是现代娱乐的地方，有那么多热爱编码的人的原因之一是，也许我们没有被所有这些丰富的不同娱乐选项所分散注意力，这并不是说拥有这些选项是坏事。这只是我们有时没有意识到的一个事实。

  (01:50:49) It’s actually an interesting thing that we sometimes don’t realize it, but scarcity leads to creativity, and one of the reasons you have so many people who love to code coming from the Soviet Union or other places which didn’t have much access to modern technology, and more importantly modern entertainment, is that perhaps we were not so much distracted by all this abundance of different entertainment options, which is not to say it’s bad to have those options. It’s just a fact that we sometimes don’t appreciate.

  (01:51:34) 所以我开始构建电脑游戏。我哥哥有时会指导我。例如，我会创建一个回合制策略游戏。当然是二维的。那时候三维对我来说太难了。但在滚动FPS、每秒帧数参数方面，它不够流畅，我问我哥哥如何优化它。他会指导我，这种学习和训练在我年轻时就塑造了我的编码技能。

  (01:51:34) So I started to build computer games. My brother would sometimes guide me. For example, I would create a turn-based strategy. Of course, two-dimensional. Back then three-dimensional was too much for me. But it wasn’t as slick in terms of the scrolling FPS, frames per second, parameter, and I asked my brother how to optimize it. He would guide me, and this kind of learning and training really shaped my coding skills when I was younger.

  (01:52:21) 然后我开始为我的同学们创建电子游戏，例如，当我们在课间休息时在教室里玩无限区域上的井字游戏时。不是三子连珠的井字游戏，这是关于五子连珠，并且是在一个无限区域上。这是一个有趣得多的游戏，如果你继续玩下去，它会变得相当复杂。我的同学们曾经很喜欢它，我的一些同学非常聪明，是数学奥林匹克竞赛的冠军，是大学里教授们的子女，我决定，”不，我想每次都赢。我甚至一次都不想输。那么我怎么能赢呢？我需要更多练习，但我怎么才能更多练习呢？我需要一个比我更强的对手。”

  (01:52:21) Then I started to create video games for my classmates when we played, for example, tic-tac-toe on an infinite field in my class during the breaks. And not tic-tac-toe the three in a row, this was about five in a row and in an infinite field. This is a much more interesting game and it gets quite complicated if you keep playing it. My classmates used to love it and some of my classmates were really smart, champions of math olympiads, sons and daughters of professors at the university, and I decided, “No, I want to win every single time. I don’t want to lose even a single time. So how do I win? I need to practice more, but how do I practice more? I need an opponent stronger than myself.”

  (01:53:08) 所以我编写了这个游戏，这样我就可以和电脑对战，电脑会计算，我想，提前四步来选择最优策略。那还不够。提前四步，我仍然能赢它。如果我尝试计算五步或六步，那就太慢了，所以请我哥哥帮我。于是他做了这个算法。最终，我训练自己每次都赢，即使和电脑对战，那时候我们没有现代CPU，我仍然可以保持一些自信。

  (01:53:08) So I coded this game so that I would play against the computer and the computer would calculate, I think, four moves in advance to choose the optimal strategy. That wasn’t enough. Four moves in advance, I would still win over it. If I tried to calculate five or six, it was too slow, so asked my brother to help me out here. So he made this algorithm. Eventually, I trained myself to win every single time, even with the computer back then, we didn’t have modern CPUs, and I could still retain some self-confidence.

  (01:53:54) 我会在课间休息时回到学校，和我的同学们玩，很快人们就开始失去兴趣。我的同学中没有人再想玩这个游戏了。我毁掉了这个游戏，因为…

  (01:53:54) I would go back to school during breaks, play with my classmates, and soon people started to lose interest. None of my classmates wanted to play this game anymore. I killed the game because there’s…

  VK 起源与工程

  VK origins & engineering

  (01:54:09) 在那之后，当我进入圣彼得堡国立大学时，仅仅学习是相当无聊的，因为太容易了。所以我想，”我在那里能做什么？” 我首先为我所在院系的学生创建了一个网站。我组织了将所有考试的答案和所有讲座的数字化版本创建起来，这在那时是非常独特的。记住，那是25年前。我会建立一个网站，在那里发布所有这些材料，很快它就变得非常受欢迎。我在那里开了一个讨论论坛。几年内，我将其扩展到了大学的所有其他部门，然后扩展到其他大学。最终我们拥有了数万用户，仅仅作为一个学生门户。我们在那里有各种社交功能，好友列表、相册、个人资料、博客。应有尽有。

  (01:54:09) So after that, when I got into the St. Petersburg State University, it was quite boring just to study because it was too easy. So I thought, “What can I do there?” I created a website for the students of my faculty first. I organized the creation of digital answers to all exams and digitalized version of all lectures, which was something very unique back then. Remember, it was 25 years ago. I would put together a website where I would publish all this materials, and pretty soon it became super popular. I opened a discussion forum there. In a few years, I expanded to the university with all of its other departments, and then to other universities. We ended up having tens of thousands of users just as a student’s portal. We had all kinds of social features there, friends lists, photo albums, profiles, blogs. All of it.

  (01:55:29) 它相当成功，在我大学毕业后，我的一位中学同学在看到圣彼得堡主要商业报纸上关于我成功的报道后联系了我，他问我，”你是在尝试打造一个俄罗斯的Facebook吗？” 我说，”我不确定。什么是Facebook？” 于是我们见面了。由于他两年前从一所美国大学毕业，他向我展示了Facebook。我想，”嗯，我已经拥有了所有这些技术，但知道我应该去掉哪些元素以便扩展这个东西并拥有数百万用户是很有价值的。”

  (01:55:29) It was quite successful, and after I graduated the university, one of my ex-classmates from the school reached out to me after reading about my successes in a newspaper, the main business newspaper of St. Petersburg, and he asked me, “Are you trying to build a Russian Facebook?” I said, “I’m not sure. What’s Facebook?” So we met. Since he graduated an American university two years before that, he showed me Facebook. I thought, “Well, I can’t already have all of this technology, but it’s valuable to know which elements I should get rid of in order to scale this thing and have millions of users.”

  (01:56:25) 这也是人们没有意识到的一点，有时候为了向前发展并获得更多成功，你必须舍弃一些东西，包括技术。舍弃功能非常重要。

  (01:56:25) This is also something people don’t appreciate that sometimes in order to move forward and have more success, you have to get rid of things, including technology. Getting rid of features is super important.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:56:40) 简化，既是为了扩展，也是为了使其易于用户基础增长，让人们能立即理解。

  Lex Fridman (01:56:40) Simplify, both for scaling and for making it amenable to just growing the user base where people get it immediately.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:56:50) 是的。否则，对新用户来说就太复杂了。现有用户会很高兴，他们会赞美你，他们会要求你添加更多东西，让它变得更复杂，所以如果你只依赖现有用户的反馈，很容易迷失方向，不知所措。

  Pavel Durov (01:56:50) Yes. Otherwise, it’s just too complicated for the new user. The existing users will be happy, they’ll be praising you, they will be asking you to add more stuff to make it even more complicated, so it’s easy to lose track and get disoriented if you are only relying on the feedback of existing users.

  (01:57:18) 因此，我启动了一个名为 VKontakte 或 VK 的网站，在俄语中意思是”保持联系”，最初是为了解决我个人的问题。我那一年大学毕业，我想与我在大学里的老同学和其他同学保持联系。当然，作为一个20岁的年轻人，我也想认识其他人，包括漂亮的女孩。

  (01:57:18) So as a result, I started the website called VKontakte or VK, it means “in touch” in Russian, initially to solve my own personal problem. I graduated the university that same year and I wanted to be in touch or remain in touch with my ex-classmates from the university and the other fellow students. And of course, as a 20-year-old, I wanted to meet other people, including good-looking girls.

  (01:57:46) 所以我从头开始构建它。对于这个项目，我想，”我不会使用任何第三方库、模块，因为我想让它尽可能高效。” 我痴迷于每一行代码，但那么庞大的项目该如何开始呢？我之前没有任何创建那种规模项目的经验，那将涉及所有方面。以前，我会重用一些现有的解决方案。在这里，我想从头开始构建。

  (01:57:46) So I started to build it from scratch. For that one, I thought, “I’m not going to use any third-party libraries, modules because I want to make it as efficient as possible.” I was obsessing over every line of code, but then how do you start something that large? I didn’t have any prior experience creating a project of that scale, which would involve everything. Before, I would reuse some existing solutions. Here, I wanted to build from scratch.

  (01:58:26) 所以我打电话给我哥哥。他当时是德国马克斯·普朗克大学的博士后，我问他，”我应该从哪里开始？” 他告诉我，”就构建一个用户认证模块，只是登录，甚至不用登出，只是登录，因为你可以用凭证、邮箱和密码预填充数据库。这并不重要。但一旦你看到你可以输入你的密码和邮箱，然后你进去了，它用你的名字对你说’你好’，那么你就会清楚地知道该从哪里继续了。”

  (01:58:26) So I called my brother. He was a post-doc student in Germany at the time in the Max Planck university, and I asked him, “What should I start from?” And he told me, “Just build a module to authorize users, just to log in, not even to sign out, just to log in because you can pre-populate the database with credentials and emails and passwords. It doesn’t really matter. But once you see that you can type in your password and email and you are in and it tells you, ‘Hello,’ using your name, then you will have a clear understanding where to go from there.”

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:59:22) 是的。我的意思是，确实如此。

  Lex Fridman (01:59:22) Yeah. I mean, that’s true.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:59:24) 这是我一生中收到的最好的建议之一。顺便说一句，它效果非常好。我开始构建它，在我意识到之前，我就在网站上有了相册、私信、这个留言簿。我们过去在VK上，我猜在Facebook早期，称之为”墙”。我们最终构建了比当时Facebook更复杂、功能更多的东西。

  Pavel Durov (01:59:24) That’s one of the best advice I’ve ever got in my life. It worked perfectly, by the way. I started to build it and before I knew it, I would have there on the website photo albums, private messages, this guest book. We used to call it “thee wall” back on VK and I guess in the early days of Facebook. We’d end up building something even more sophisticated than Facebook at the time with more features.

  (01:59:54) 我当时有个女朋友。我请她，”我们需要以某种方式建立所有俄罗斯学校和大学以及系和细分部门的数据库。” 她做得非常出色，尝试在线搜集所有这些信息，有时给大学写邮件说，”你们目前到底有哪些系？我们需要知道，”或者联系教育部，在俄罗斯，然后在乌克兰，最终在白俄罗斯和哈萨克斯坦以及其他VK最终成为最大和最受欢迎的社交网络的国家。

  (01:59:54) I had a girlfriend at the time. I asked her, “We need to somehow come up with a database of all Russian schools and universities and the departments and subdivisions.” She did a great job trying to source all this information online or sometimes writing emails to universities saying, “Which departments do you have exactly at this point? We need to know,” or reaching out to the Department of Education, but in Russia and then in Ukraine, and then eventually in Belarus and in Kazakhstan and other countries where VK ended up to be the largest and most popular social network.

  (02:00:38) 所以我们当时做了一些相当独特的事情，在最初的将近一年里，我是公司唯一的员工。我是后端工程师、前端工程师、设计师。我是客服人员。我也是市场人员，想出所有的措辞和公告，想出推广VK的竞赛，这些效果相当好。那是一段不可思议的经历，让我了解了社交网络平台的方方面面。

  (02:00:38) So we did a few things that were quite unique at the time, and for the first almost a year, I was the single employee of the company. I was the backend engineer, the front-end engineer, the designer. I was the customer support officer. I was the marketing guy as well, coming up with all the wordings and the announcements, coming up with competitions to promote VK, which worked quite well. That was an incredible experience that gave me knowledge of every aspect of a social networking platform.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:01:30) 也理解了单个人能做多少事。

  Lex Fridman (02:01:30) Also understanding of how much a single person can do.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:01:32) 完全正确。这是为什么我喜欢认为自己是Telegram内部高效的项目经理和产品经理的原因之一，因为我只会向我的团队成员要求雄心勃勃的截止日期。如果有人给我，”哦，我需要三周时间来做那个，”我总是回答，”嗯，我构建VK的第一个版本只用了两周。你为什么需要三周？看起来像是你三天就能完成的事情。三周？除了这三天，剩下的三周你打算做什么？”

  Pavel Durov (02:01:32) Exactly. It’s one of the reasons why I’d like to think I’m an efficient project manager and product manager inside Telegram because I will not take anything but ambitious deadlines from my team members. If somebody gives me, “Oh, I need three weeks to do that,” I always reply, “Well, I built the first version of VK in just two weeks. Why would you need three weeks? It seems like something you could make real in just three days. Three weeks? What are you going to do the rest of the three weeks apart from this three days?”

  (02:02:18) 团队了解我，这就是为什么我们今天，Telegram，能够以非常快的创新步伐前进。每个月我们都会推出几个有意义的功能，我认为在这个行业中，在短时间内能完成的事情方面，我们超越了所有其他人。所以是的，那段经历是无价的。

  (02:02:18) And the team knows me, and that’s why we are able today, Telegram, to move at a very good pace of innovation. Every month we’re pushing several meaningful features, I think out-competing everybody else in this industry in terms of what you can do within a short timeframe. So yes, that experience was invaluable.

  (02:02:52) 至于技术栈，我从PHP和MySQL，Debian Linux开始，但很快我意识到，”我需要优化这个。” 我开始使用Memcached。Apache服务器不够用了。我们不得不设置NGINX。我哥哥当时还住在德国，所以在构建VK的第一年里，他帮不了我太多。有时我设法通过电话联系到他。我会用老式的有线电话打给他。我说，”我该怎么办？我怎么安装这个叫NGINX的东西？我不是Linux专家。” 如果他那天感觉特别好心并且不太忙，他会告诉我怎么做或者亲自设置，但大多数情况下，我不得不只依靠自己。

  (02:02:52) As for the stack, I started from PHP and MySQL, Debian Linux, but very soon I realized, “I need to optimize this.” I started using Memcached. Apache servers were not enough anymore. We had to set up NGINX. And my brother was still living in Germany, so he couldn’t help me much for the first year of building VK. Sometimes I would manage to get through to him through a call. I would use an old-school phone to call him with wires. I said, “What do I do? How do I install this thing called NGINX? I’m not a Linux guy.” If he felt particularly kind that day and not too busy, he would show me the way to do it or set it up himself, but for the most part, I had to rely on just myself.

  (02:03:53) 然而，有他在那里对我们开始快速增长并开始扩展时有帮助，因为起初，你意识到，”一台服务器不够了。我需要再买一台。然后一台又一台。” 数据库应该在另一台服务器上。然后你必须把数据库分成表。然后你必须想出一种方法，根据某种不会破坏你用户体验的有意义的标准来对表进行分片。

  (02:03:53) Having him there though helped when we started to grow fast and started to scale it, because at first, you realize, “One server is not enough. I need to buy another one. Then another one and another one.” The database should be in a different server. Then you have to split the database into tables. Then you have to come up with a way to chart the tables using some criteria that would make sense that wouldn’t break your user experience.

  (02:04:28) 当我们用户超过一百万，服务器超过十几台时，没有我哥哥在扩展方面的投入，生存下去变得不可能。我记得请他回来，”你需要帮我处理这个东西。它开始变得非常庞大了。” 更糟糕的是，自从我们变得流行起来，有人开始对我们进行DDoS攻击，就像经常发生的那样。然后我们有人想购买VK的股份，有趣的是，每次我们有谈判的日子，DDoS攻击就会加剧，所以我们不得不找出应对的方法。我记得有很多个不眠之夜试图解决它。

  (02:04:28) When we got to over a million users and beyond a dozen of servers surviving without the input from my brother in terms of taking care of the scaling aspect, it became impossible. I remember asking him to come back, “You need to help me with this thing. It’s starting to be really big.” What was worse is that since we became popular, somebody started to do DDoS attacks on us, as it always happens. And then we had people that wanted to buy a share of VK, and interestingly, every time we had a negotiation day, the DDoS attacks intensified, so we had to come up with a way to fight it. I remembered having many sleepless nights trying to figure it out.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:05:30) 所以这是你初次接触各种恶意行为者，DDoS，商业。然后后来你会发现还有政治这种东西，然后后来，地缘政治。但这是初始阶段，不仅仅是创造酷炫的东西，还必须应对，就像你现在必须应对Telegram一样，是大量的恶意行为者试图测试系统的极限，试图破坏系统。

  Lex Fridman (02:05:30) So that was your introduction to all kinds of bad actors, DDoS, business. Then later you’d find out there’s such a thing called politics, and then later, geopolitics. But this is the initial stages, that it’s not just about creating cool stuff, it’s having to deal with, as you now have to deal with with Telegram, is seas of bad actors trying to test the limits of the system, trying to break the system.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:06:02) 不幸的是。如果我们没有恶意行为者和压力，那将是最好的工作。你只需要创造。

  Pavel Durov (02:06:02) Unfortunately. If we didn’t have bad actors and pressure, it would be the best job ever. You just get to create.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:06:12) 是的，是的。所以你哥哥的帮助，就像你提到的NGINX和对表进行分片，这些扩展问题有些是算法性质的。这几乎像是理论计算机科学。所以不仅仅是买更多电脑，而是要弄清楚如何在算法上让一切运行得极快，所以其中一些是数学。一些是纯粹的工程，但一些是数学。

  Lex Fridman (02:06:12) Yeah, yeah. And so the help from your brother, like you mentioned NGINX and charting the tables, some of this scaling issue is algorithmic nature. It’s almost like theoretical computer science. So it’s not just about buying more computers, it’s figuring out how to algorithmically make everything work extremely fast, so some of it’s mathematics. Some of it is pure engineering, but some of it is mathematics.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:06:44) 是的。所以在那个阶段，我能做基本的事情。我能理解如何将可扩展性实现到代码库中，如何对数据库中的表进行分片，在哪里使用Memcached而不是直接请求数据库。那在当时还挺容易的，因为那时候还是PHP。

  Pavel Durov (02:06:44) Yeah. So at that stage, I could do the basic stuff. I could understand how I implement scalability into the code base, how I chart my tables in the database, where I include Memcached instead of direct requests to the database. That was quite easy because it was still PHP back in the day.

  (02:07:14) 当我哥哥在2008年左右从德国回来时，我问他，”我们能让它更高效吗？我们能让它超级快，同时让我们需要更少的服务器来维持负载吗？” 他说，”可以，但PHP不够。我将不得不用C和C++重写你数据引擎的大部分。” 我说，”好的，我们干吧。”

  (02:07:14) When my brother got back from Germany somewhere around 2008, I asked him, “Can we make it even more efficient? Can we make it super fast and at the same time so that we would require even fewer servers to maintain the load?” And he said, “Yes, but PHP is not enough. I’ll have to rewrite big part of your data engines in C and C++.” I said, “Okay, let’s do that.”

  (02:07:47) 他邀请了他的一个朋友来帮忙，另一个世界编程竞赛的绝对冠军，连续两次，他们一起构建了第一个定制化的数据引擎，它比仅仅依赖MySQL和Memcached要高效得多，因为首先，它更专业，更底层。

  (02:07:47) He invited a friend of his to help him, another absolute champion in world’s programming contest, twice in a row, and they put together the first customized data engine, which was far more efficient than just relying on MySQL and Memcached because it was, first of all, more specialized, more low-level.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:08:19) 所以他们用C, C++重写了它？

  Lex Fridman (02:08:19) So they rewrote it in C, C++?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:08:21) 一大部分。例如，搜索，广告引擎，因为VK有定向广告，他们构建了那个。他们做的非常高效。最终，私信部分，公共消息部分。在某个时刻，我们意识到线上很少有网站比VK加载更快。

  Pavel Durov (02:08:21) A large chunk of it. For example, the search, the ad engine, because VK had targeted ads, they built that. It was very efficient what they did. Eventually, the private messaging part, the public messages part. At some point, we realized there are very few websites online that load faster than VK.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:08:48) 很好。

  Lex Fridman (02:08:48) Nice.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:08:49) 我记得在2009年，我去了硅谷，第一次见到了马克·扎克伯格和Facebook早期的一些其他核心团队成员。记住，Facebook当时才四五岁。每个人都不断问我，”为什么即使在硅谷这里，VK加载也比Facebook快？你网站上的一切似乎都是瞬间出现的。秘诀是什么？” 这是让他们非常好奇的事情之一。

  Pavel Durov (02:08:49) I remember in 2009, I went to Silicon Valley and I met Mark Zuckerberg the first time and some of the other core team members of early Facebook. Remember, Facebook was just four or five years old. And everybody kept asking me, “How come even here in Silicon Valley, VK loads faster than Facebook? Everything seems to appear instantly on your website. What’s the secret sauce?” That was one of the things that made them very curious

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:09:25) 这一直对你很重要，要有非常低的延迟，确保东西加载快，因为这是Telegram真正出名的地方之一。即使在烂连接上等等，它也能运行得极快。一切都很快。

  Lex Fridman (02:09:25) And that was always important to you, to have very low latency to make sure the thing loads because that’s one of the things Telegram is really known for. Even on crappy connections and all that kind of stuff, it just works extremely fast. Everything is fast.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:09:37) 作为核心技术理念之一，我们优先考虑速度。我们认为人们能注意到差异，即使只是5000万毫秒的差异。这种差异是潜意识的。它也让我们不仅在速度更快、响应更及时方面有优势，而且在基础设施、开支方面也更高效。因为如果你的代码执行得更快，意味着你需要更少的计算资源来运行它。

  Pavel Durov (02:09:37) As one of the core technological ideas, we prioritize speed. We think that people can notice the difference, even if it’s just 50 million millisecond difference. The difference is subconscious. It also allows us not just to be faster and more responsive, but also more efficient when it comes to the infrastructure, the expenses. Because if your code executes faster, it means you need fewer computational resources to run it.

  (02:10:16) 所以让东西更快你不可能输，这就是为什么我们在招聘人员时一直非常谨慎。我只会雇佣我最终确定是最佳选择的人，因为如果你雇佣了一个可能有点分心、缺乏经验的人，你最终可能会在代码库中引入低效，导致数千万美元的损失。想想这个责任，就像如果我们从VK时代跳到今天，Telegram被超过十亿人使用。他们每天打开它几十次。想象一下，如果应用打开时有轻微的延迟，比如半秒的延迟。乘以几十次，再乘以十亿。这是人类无缘无故就损失了几个世纪、几千年的时间，仅仅因为马虎。

  (02:10:16) So there is no way you can lose in making things faster, and that’s why we have always been very careful when hiring people. I would only hire a person if I’m ultimately certain is the best option because if you hire somebody who is maybe a little bit distracted, unexperienced, you may end up with inefficiencies in your code base that results in tens of millions of dollars of losses. And think about the responsibility, like if we jump to today from the VK days, Telegram is used by over a billion people. They open it dozens of times every day. Imagine the app opens with a slight delay, say, half-a-second delay. Multiply by dozens of times by a billion. It’s centuries, millennia lost for humanity without any reason other than just being sloppy.

  雇佣优秀团队

  Hiring a great team

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:11:24) 理解这一点非常重要，也非常明智，实际上，如果你作为一个开发者只是有点粗心，你可能会引入难以追踪的低效，因为你不知道它可以更快。代码不会对你尖叫说，”这个可以快得多。” 所以你必须实际上，作为一个工匠，在编写代码时非常小心，并且总是思考，”这个能更高效地完成吗？” 而且可能只是很小的事情，因为它们都会在整个代码中传播，所以在公司任何地方有一个粗心的开发者都会带来真正的成本，因为他们可能引入那种低效，而所有其他开发者不会知道。他们会以为本来就该那样。

  Lex Fridman (02:11:24) That is so important to understand and so wise that it’s actually, if you’re just a little bit careless as a developer, you can introduce inefficiencies that are going to be very difficult to track down because you don’t know that it can be faster. The code doesn’t scream at you saying, “This could be much faster.” So you have to actually, as a craftsman, be very careful when you’re writing a code and always thinking, “Can this be done much more efficiently?” And it can be tiny things because they all propagate throughout the code, and so there’s a real cost in having a careless developer anywhere in the company because they can introduce that inefficiency and all the other developers won’t know. They’ll just assume it kind of has to be that way.

  (02:12:11) 所以每个构建像Telegram这样的应用任何组件的个体开发者都有真正的责任，要总是问，”好吧，这个能更高效地完成吗？这个能更简单地完成吗？” 而这是编程最美丽的方面之一，艺术形式，对吧？

  (02:12:11) So there’s a real responsibility for every single individual developer that’s building any component of an app like Telegram to just always ask, “Okay, can this be done more efficiently? Can this be done more simply?” And that’s one of the most beautiful aspects, the art forms of programming, right?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:12:32) 哦，是的，因为当你设法发现一种简化事物、让它们更高效的方法时，你会感到难以置信的快乐、自豪和成就感。

  Pavel Durov (02:12:32) Oh, yes, because when you manage to discover a way to simplify things, make them more efficient, you feel incredibly happy and proud and accomplished.

  (02:12:47) 说到你的观点，我能回忆起我职业生涯中的几个例子，解雇一名工程师实际上导致了生产力的提高。假设你有两个安卓工程师构建他们的应用，然后他们就是做不到。他们跟不上功能发布的时间表。你想，”我可能得雇佣第三个，”但然后你注意到其中一个真的很奇怪，落后于进度，有时抱怨，不承担责任。你问，”那么，如果我直接解雇这个人会怎样？” 你解雇了这个人。几周后，你意识到你实际上不需要任何新人，从来就不需要第三个工程师。问题在于这个家伙，他制造的问题比他解决的还多。

  (02:12:47) And to your point, I can recall a few instances in my career where firing an engineer actually resulted to an increase in productivity. Say you have two Android engineers building their app and then they just can’t make it. They’re not keeping up with the pace of the feature release schedule. And you think, “I probably have to hire a third one,” but then you notice that one of them is really weird, falling behind the schedule, complaining some of the time, doesn’t assume responsibility. And you ask, “So what if I just fire this person?” And you fire this person. In a few weeks, you realize you actually don’t need any new, never needed the third engineer. The problem was this guy who created more issues and more problems than he solved.

  (02:13:49) 这太违反直觉了，因为在开发技术项目时，我们倾向于认为你只需要把更多的人扔进某件事，然后事情就会奇迹般地自行解决，仅仅因为更多的人意味着他们现在投入更多注意力。

  (02:13:49) That is so counterintuitive because in developing tech projects, we tend to think that you just throw more people into something and then things get solved miraculously by themselves just because more people means more attention from them now.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:14:12) 这，再次，极其有力。史蒂夫·乔布斯谈论过A级玩家和B级玩家，当你拥有B级玩家，也就是你谈到的那类人，加入团队时，会发生一些事情，他们 somehow 会让每个人都慢下来。他们让每个人失去动力。而且非常违反直觉的是，你基本上，创建优秀团队工作的一部分是移除B级玩家。不仅仅是雇佣更多人，一般来说。是找到”A级玩家”并移除那些拖慢事情的人。

  Lex Fridman (02:14:12) That’s, again, extremely powerful. Steve Jobs talked about A players and B players, and there’s something that happens when you have B players, which is like the folks you’re talking about. Introduced into a team, they can somehow slow everybody down. They demotivate everybody. And it’s very counterintuitive that you basically, part of the work of creating a great team is removing the B players. It’s not just hiring more, generally speaking. It’s finding the “A players” and removing the people that are slowing things down.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:14:48) 哦，是的，因为人们没有意识到的另一件事是，与B级玩家一起工作是多么令人沮丧。每个人都能分辨出对方，他们与之共事的另一个工程师是否真的有能力。如果这个人不舒服，这是非常明显的。他们问错误的问题，他们不断落后。在某个时刻，如果你是一个A级玩家，你会感到这种不满，这种感觉，你无法实现你的全部潜力，完成你真正应该完成的事情，就是因为这个人就在你旁边工作或假装在你旁边工作。

  Pavel Durov (02:14:48) Oh, yes, because the other thing that people don’t realize is how demotivating working with a B player is. Everybody can tell if the other person, the other engineer they’re working with is really competent. And it’s very visible if the person is not comfortable. They’re asking the wrong questions, they keep lagging behind. And at a certain point, if you’re an A player, you get this dissatisfaction, this feeling that you are not able to realize your full potential, accomplish what you’re really meant to accomplish because of this person working next to you or pretending to work next to you.

  (02:15:37) 顺便说一下，在某些情况下，不是因为这个人懒。在某些情况下，只是心智、智力能力不够。这不是关于经验。大多数情况下是关于天生能力和毅力。在90%的情况下，只是无法长时间专注于一项任务。不是每个人都有这种能力。所以对于有这种能力的人来说，与一个分心、无法深入他们负责的项目的人一起工作是一种侮辱。

  (02:15:37) And by the way, in some cases, it’s not because the person is lazy. In some cases it’s just the mental, the intellectual ability is not there. It’s not about experience. Most often it’s about natural ability and persistence. In 90% of cases, it’s just the inability to focus on one task for an extended period of time. Not everybody has this ability. So for people who do have this ability, it’s an insult to work alongside someone who is distracted and cannot go deep in the projects that they’re responsible for.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:16:27) 关于这个小插曲，你的招聘流程是怎样的？你已经展示并谈到你经常使用竞赛，编码竞赛来招聘，以找到优秀的工程师。这背后的想法是什么？

  Lex Fridman (02:16:27) On this small tangent, what’s your hiring process? So you’ve shown and you’ve talked about how you use competitions often, coding competitions to hire to find great engineers. What’s your thinking behind that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:16:40) 嗯，这符合我的整体理念。我认为竞争带来进步。如果你想为某些你心中有数的特定任务选择最合格的人建立一个理想的流程，有什么能比竞赛更好呢？一个编码比赛，每个想加入你公司做工程师，或者只是想获得一些奖金或认可的人，都可以展示他们的技能，然后我们只选择最好的。或者如果我们不确定，因为数据不足而无法雇佣某人，我们就用另一个任务重复比赛，获取更多数据，获取更多获胜者，然后再重复。

  Pavel Durov (02:16:40) Well, it’s in line with my overall philosophy. I think competition leads to progress. If you want to create an ideal process for selecting the most qualified people for certain specific tasks you have in mind, what can be better than a competition? A coding contest where everybody who wants to join your company as an engineer or just wants to get some prize money or validation can demonstrate their skills, and then we just select the best. Or if we are not certain because there’s not enough data to hire somebody, we just repeat the contest with another task, get more data, get more winners, then repeat again.

  (02:17:31) 在某个时刻，你意识到，”哦，实际上这个家伙从16岁或14岁起就参加了我们的10次比赛。现在他20或21岁了。他在其中八次比赛中获胜。他似乎在JavaScript、安卓、Java以及C++方面真的很棒。为什么不雇佣这个人呢？” 这里有一致性。

  (02:17:31) And at some point, you realize, “Oh, actually this guy has competed in 10 of our contests since he was 16 years old or 14 years old. Now he’s 20 or 21. He won in eight of these competitions. He seems to be really good in JavaScript on Android, Java, and also C++. Why not hire this person?” There’s some consistency there.

  (02:18:04) 而且很多这样的人，他们以前从未在大公司工作过，这是无价的，因为在大公司，人们倾向于推卸责任。他们有这种共同责任，以至于没有人完全理解谁能为一个项目负责，谁该为一个项目受责备。在Telegram内部，这是非常清楚的，而这些比赛是最接近人们在Telegram工作时会有的体验。

  (02:18:04) And a lot of these people, they have never worked in a big company before, which is priceless because in a big company, people tend to shift responsibility. They have this shared responsibility wherein nobody fully understands who can take credit for a project, who can take blame for a project. Inside Telegram, it’s pretty clear, and these competitions are the closest experience to what people will have when working at Telegram.

  (02:18:46) 例如，我们想在Telegram安卓版本的资料页面上实现某个非常棘手的动画和重新设计。安卓应用，它是一个开源应用。任何人都可以获取它的代码并摆弄它。因此，我们不仅会选择最好的人并雇佣这个人，我们还会选择问题的最佳解决方案，因为我们不会建议参赛者解决琐碎的问题。这是有价值的东西。它在开发方面为我们节省了大量时间。

  (02:18:46) So for example, we want to implement certain very tricky animation and redesign to the profile page of the Telegram’s Android version. And the Android app, it’s an open-source app. Anybody can take its code and play with it. So as a result, we would not just select the best person and hire this person, we would also select the best solution to the problem because we would not suggest the contestants to solve trivial problems. It’s something that’s valuable. It saves a lot of time for us in terms of development.

  (02:19:24) 而且因为我一直拥有这些大型社交媒体平台，我可以用它们来推广这些比赛， somehow VK和Telegram在工程师、设计师和其他技术人员中都非常受欢迎，我从来没有问题推广这些比赛并找到合适的人。对于你公司的员工来说，有什么能比一个一直是其用户的人更好呢？这个人没有使用Telegram的先验经验。

  (02:19:24) And because I always had this large social media platforms, which I could use to promote these competitions, somehow both VK and Telegram were very popular among engineers and designers, other tech people, I had no issue to promote this contest and find the right people ever. And what can be better than, for an employee of your company, somebody who has been a user of it? This person has no prior experience of using Telegram.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:20:00) 这个人没有使用Telegram的先验经验。他们的理解会非常有限。我为什么要甚至尝试从LinkedIn雇佣某个在谷歌和其他公司工作过的人，习惯于无功受禄，习惯于推卸责任和陷入无休止的会议，并且对Telegram代表什么理解有限？如果你仔细想想，这简直是疯了。

  Pavel Durov (02:20:00) This person has no prior experience of using Telegram. Their understanding would be very limited. Why would I even try to hire somebody from LinkedIn who worked at Google and other companies, is used to receiving salary for nothing, is used to shift responsibility and being stuck in endless meetings and have very limited understanding of what Telegram stands for? It’s just crazy if you think about it.

  Telegram 工程与设计

  Telegram engineering & design

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:20:40) 正因为如此，你在招聘上极其挑剔且缓慢。人们必须真正赢得他们的位置，因此，我有机会参加了一次团队会议，人们讨论正在开发的不同功能、不同的想法，其中一些处于最前沿，所以你可以幕后看到，如何能够有如此快的创意生成速度。你产生想法，实现原型，然后最终它成为产品中的一个实际功能。这就是为什么你有这种半有趣、半不可思议的事实，与WhatsApp和Signal相比，你在许多其他功能上领先。许多我们现在认为理所当然的功能，许多我们熟知和喜爱的功能，比如自动删除计时器。这比其他任何通讯应用早了七年。消息编辑、回复。这些都是显而易见的东西，我甚至忘了其中一些它们以前从未有过。我认为自动删除计时器是一个真正绝妙的想法。

  Lex Fridman (02:20:40) Because of that, you’re extremely selective and slow in hiring. People really have to earn their spot and then as a result, I got a chance to sit in one of the team meetings where people discuss the different features that are being developed, the different ideas, some of which are at the very cutting edge and so you get to see behind the scenes how it’s possible to have such a fast rate of idea generation. You generate the idea, you implement the prototype and then eventually it becomes an actual feature in the product. That’s why you have this kind of half hilarious, half incredible fact that for many, as compared to WhatsApp and Signal, you’ve led the way on many other features. Many of the features we take for granted now, many of which we know and love, like the auto-delete timer. That was seven years ahead of any other messenger. Message editing, replies. These are all obvious things I’ve even forgotten for some of them that they were never part. I think auto-delete timer is a really brilliant idea.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:21:54) 我们在2013年在秘密聊天中实现了它。有趣的是，当其他应用开始复制它时，WhatsApp在七年之后，然后是Signal和其他一些这类应用，他们最初甚至复制了完全相同的时间戳。例如，如果我们有一秒、三秒和五秒，他们也会有一秒、三秒和五秒。他们试图不改变它，因为他们不确定这个功能背后的魔力是什么。具有讽刺意味的是，许多这样的事情都会发生。例如，当我们设计如何回复一条消息，你有一个小片段显示你正在回复这条消息，现在你正在输入你的回复，然后在消息本身中有一个小片段，如果你点击它，会高亮显示你正在回复的原始消息。看起来很明显，但当时我们实施了一些特定的设计决策，我们得到了左边的垂直线和所有其他这些小东西，这些都是完全随意的，你可以用不同的方式做，但 somehow 整个行业最终都复制了完全相同的解决方案。现在无论你去看WhatsApp、Instagram Direct、Facebook Messenger、Signal，不管哪个，你都会看到完全相同或非常相似的体验，因为没有人真的想冒风险去创新。如果某个东西有效，为什么不直接复制呢？

  Pavel Durov (02:21:54) We implemented in 2013 in the Secret Chats. Funny thing about it is then when other apps started to copy it, WhatsApp seven years after and then Signal and some other of these apps, they initially even copied the exact timestamps. For example, if we had one, three and five seconds, they would also have one, three and five seconds. They tried not to change it because they were not sure what was the magic sauce behind the feature. Ironically, it happens with many of these things. For example, when we design how you reply to a message and you have a small snippet showing that you’re replying to this message and now you’re typing your response, then there is a small snippet into the message itself that if you tap on it highlights the original message you’re replying to. Seems pretty obvious, but there are certain design decisions that we were implementing at the time and we got this vertical line on the left and all these other small things that are completely arbitrary, you can do it in a different way, but somehow the entire industry ended up copying exactly that solution. Now whenever you go to WhatsApp, Instagram direct, Facebook Messenger, Signal, it doesn’t matter, you would see exactly the same or pretty much similar experience because nobody really wants to take the risk and innovate. If something works, why not just copy it?

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:23:32) 我们应该说它做得非常好。垂直线和高亮显示，我意思是所有这些都像是微小的天才之笔。以某种方式高亮文本，从设计角度使其非常清晰，这部分是之前写的，下面的东西是你的回复。不同格式、文本之间的区别。听着，我知道排版是一门艺术形式。Telegram内部有很多互动的、图形的艺术元素，都必须极其协调地配合在一起。就像你向我指出的那个让我大吃一惊的东西，也就是Telegram的背景渐变，它会变化。它真的很好地适应了气泡，聊天气泡，然后渐变之上有图形元素，所有这些都相互作用在一起。所有这些都必须很好地工作，同时不牺牲清晰度。一切都非常直观。这很难创造。那是艺术。除此之外，还超级快。

  Lex Fridman (02:23:32) We should say that it’s done extremely well. The vertical line and the highlighting, I mean all of these are tiny little strokes of genius. By highlighting the text in a certain way that from a design perspective makes it very clear that this part was written before and thing under it is your reply. The distinction between the different formatting, the text. Listen, I know how much typography is an art form. There’s a lot of interacting, graphic artistic elements inside Telegram that all have to play together extremely well. Like you pointed out to me, this thing that just blew my mind, which is the background gradient of Telegram, shifts. It changes and it adjusts really nicely to the bubbles, the chat bubbles and then there’s graphic elements on top of the gradient that all interplay together. All of that has to work really nicely without sacrificing clarity. Everything’s just intuitive. That’s very difficult to create. That is art. On top of that, super fast.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:24:40) 那是最难的部分。让它看起来让设计师喜欢是一回事。真正的挑战是让它看起来让设计师喜欢，同时让它能在尽可能弱的设备上运行。你能想象到的最老、最便宜的智能手机。如果你拿每个Telegram聊天背景上的动态渐变来说，这是大多数人没有注意到的东西，但他们能感觉到。

  Pavel Durov (02:24:40) That’s the hardest part. To make it look so that designers love it is one thing. The real challenge is make it look the way the designers love it and make it work on the weakest device as possible. Oldest, cheapest, smartphones you can imagine. If you take the moving gradient on the background of every Telegram chat, this is something most people don’t notice, but they can feel it.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:25:13) 他们潜意识里注意到它或类似的东西。有一种愉悦的感觉。当你阅读聊天时有一种愉悦的感觉，这就是设计对此的贡献。我认为渐变确实如此。我真的很喜欢Telegram的这一点，渐变。不是你描述的技术细节，而是它的感觉，然后创造那种感觉的技术方面是不可思议的。我可能能想出各种渲染那个渐变的算法，但那些算法会超级低效，所以高效地做到那一点就像…

  Lex Fridman (02:25:13) They notice it subconsciously or something like that. There is a pleasant feeling. There’s a feeling, there’s a pleasant feeling when you’re reading a chat and that’s where the design contributes to that. I think a gradient really does. I really love that about Telegram, the gradient. Not the technical thing you described, but the feeling of it and then the technical aspect of creating that feeling is incredible. I could probably come up with all kinds of algorithms of rendering that gradient that’s going to be super inefficient and so doing that efficiently is like…

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:25:46) 或者高效，但不够漂亮，因为即使是做像渐变这样简单的事情，也可能导致渐变中出现明显的线条，让人立刻就能说，哦不，这不是对的。你必须在其中引入一定的随机性，然后你有了渐变，但这还不够。它太普通了。你想有一个特定的图案作为覆盖层，但它必须足够简单，不会让你从内容上分心，但又必须足够有趣，以创造对整个应用的良好感觉。另一个问题，你想在这种图案中包含什么样的对象，以及这种图案将如何工作？它会基于像素吗？还是会基于矢量？它会基于矢量以便无限缩放和高质量吗？我认为对于默认图案和默认背景，它基于四种颜色，不是基于两种颜色的渐变，是四种颜色，它们不断变化。我可能查看了几千种它的变体，因为这是一个非常重要的决定。这是默认背景。当然你实际上可以改变它。你可以为你自己的那个设置四种颜色。你可以改变它。

  Pavel Durov (02:25:46) Or efficient, but not too beautiful because even doing something so trivial as a gradient can result in noticeable lines in the gradient that a person can instantly say, oh no, it’s not the right thing. You can have to introduce certain randomness there and then you have the gradient, but it’s not enough. It’s too plain. You want to have certain pattern as an overlay, but it should be simple enough not to distract you from the content, but it has to be entertaining enough to create a good feeling about the whole app. Another question, what kind of objects you want to include in this pattern and how this pattern would work? Will it be based on pixels or would it be vector-based and would it be vector-based so they will be infinitely scalable and high quality? I think for the default pattern and the default background, which is based on four colors, it’s not a gradient based on two colors, it’s four colors and they’re constantly shifting. I probably look through several thousand variations of that because this is such an important decision to make. It’s the default background. Of course you can change it actually. You can set up your own four colors for that. You can change it.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:27:09) 不会吧。真的吗？

  Lex Fridman (02:27:09) No way. Really?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:27:10) 是的，你可以做到，而且你想依赖于人类思维某些根深蒂固的生物学特性。你想使用哪种颜色？会是蓝色吗？会是黄色吗？会是绿色吗？每种颜色在我们大脑中有不同的含义，你想在那里放什么样的对象？来自我们童年的东西？来自自然的东西，还是能创造不同情绪的东西？这只是应用的一个细节。还有很多细节。当你发送一条消息时，你刚打完一条消息，然后你点击发送，然后消息逐渐出现在聊天中。这是怎么发生的？你希望输入字段慢慢变形为实际的消息。

  Pavel Durov (02:27:10) Yes, you can do it and you want to rely on certain deeply hard-coded biological properties of the human mind. Which color do you want to use? Is it going to be blue? Is it going to be yellow? Is it going to be green? Each color has a different meaning in our brain and what kind of objects you want to put there? Something from our childhood? Something from nature or something that can create a different kind of mood? This is just one detail of the app. There are many details. When you send a message, you are done typing a message and you just then tap send and then the message gradually appears in the chat. How does it happen? You want the input field to slowly morph into the actual message.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:28:03) 变成消息。是的。

  Lex Fridman (02:28:03) To the message. Yeah.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:28:04) 你希望这能完成，无论消息内容如何，因为有时宽度会不同。有时它会包含媒体或链接预览或其他会改变消息气泡的东西。你检查无数不同的场景，确保每一个都能很好地工作，即使这条消息包含4000个字符。然后你查看所有平台，iOS、安卓和所有旧设备，所有种类的过时操作系统和硬件，然后你交叉检查这两者，因为你可能拥有这台非常糟糕的旧手机，但使用最新的操作系统版本，那么你怎么办？你在那里会遇到什么样的错误？然后当然，由于Telegram也可以在平板电脑上运行，我们的iOS版本可以在iPad上运行，我非常喜欢iPad，你必须理解一切都可以非常大。它可能消耗你屏幕上很多空间，然后它会触发使用更多的计算资源来渲染它。这里面有很多细微差别，但只要你痴迷于每一个小细节，至少每一个真正重要的细节，你就能达到一种用户体验……如果你真的习惯了Telegram，如果你至少是几周的常规用户，回到任何其他消息应用都会感觉像是严重的降级。

  Pavel Durov (02:28:04) You want this to be done regardless of the contents of the message because sometimes the width would be different. Sometimes it’ll be containing media or link preview or other stuff that will change the message bubble. You go through countless different scenarios and make sure every one of them works great, even if this message contains 4,000 characters. Then you look at all the platforms, iOS, Android and all the old devices, all kinds of outdated operating systems and the hardware and you cross the two because you can have this really bad old phone, but using the newest operating system version, so what do you do? What kind of bugs you get there? Then of course, since Telegram works on tablets as well and our iOS version works on an iPad, which I love a lot, you have to understand that everything can be really big. It can consume a lot of space on your screen and then it’ll trigger using more computational resources to render it. There are a lot of nuances to it, but as long as you obsess over every small detail, at least every detail that really counts, you can get to a user experience… If you’re really used to Telegram, if you’ve been a regular user for at least a few weeks, going back to any other messaging app feels like a serious downgrade.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:29:53) 是的，我的意思是，有那么多真正神奇的时刻。例如，消息删除时蒸发的方式，那是一种非常愉悦的体验。

  Lex Fridman (02:29:53) Yeah, I mean there’s so many really magical moments. For example, the way a message evaporates when you delete it, that is a really pleasant experience.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:30:05) 哦是的。做出来可真难啊，尤其是在安卓上。就是这个灭霸响指效果，对吧？消息被分解成数万颗粒子，它们像风中的尘埃一样散去。看起来很棒，但做起来太难了。

  Pavel Durov (02:30:05) Oh yeah. Boy was it hard to make, particularly on Android. This is this Thanos snap effect, right? The message is broken into tens of thousands particles, which go away like dust in the wind. It looks great, but it was so hard to make.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:30:28) 可能是我最喜欢的GUI图形事物之一。它就是艺术。纯粹的艺术。太不可思议了。很高兴听到它确实是经过反复推敲和深思熟虑的。做得非常出色。

  Lex Fridman (02:30:28) Probably one of my favorite GUI graphical things. It’s just art. It’s pure art. It’s incredible. It’s good to hear that it has been really fought over and thought through. It’s extremely well done.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:30:45) 不，如果你不深入其中，你就无法实现它。然后你不想用所有这些额外的动画分散人们与他们沟通的注意力。你希望它们在某种程度上是隐形的。

  Pavel Durov (02:30:45) No, you can’t pull it off if you’re not going deep in this. Then you don’t want to distract people from their communication with all this additional animation. You want them to be invisible in a way.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:31:06) 它们创造感觉，但不制造分心。

  Lex Fridman (02:31:06) They create the feeling, but they don’t create distraction.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:31:09) 是的。为了做到这一点，你必须克服甚至更多的挑战。例如，你提到了这个删除效果，消息蒸发。如果你先做动画，先显示动画，然后被删除消息之前的和之后的消息彼此靠近移动，那么感觉就不对。感觉太长了，太突兀了。你想做的是让消息消失，同时它周围的消息彼此靠近以填补产生的空隙。然后你想象这涉及到什么。重绘整个屏幕。在这个非常复杂的动画之上，你必须考虑诸如它之前和之后有哪些消息之类的事情。这只会增加复杂性。

  Pavel Durov (02:31:09) Yes. In order to do that, you have to overcome even more challenges. For example, you mentioned this deletion effect, message evaporates. If you do the animation, if you show the animation first and then the message that is preceding the deleted message that is going after the just deleted message move closer to each other, then it doesn’t feel right. It feels too long, too imposing. What you want to do is you want the message disappear while the messages around it go closer to each other to fill the resulting gap. Then you imagine what it involves. Redrawing the entire screen. On top of this very complicated animation, you have to think about things like which kind of messages were there before it after. It just adds to complexity.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:32:14) 再次是在所有种类的设备上，所有种类的操作系统，所有种类的平板电脑、手机、桌面，所有种类的屏幕尺寸上。

  Lex Fridman (02:32:14) Once again on all kinds of devices, all kinds of operating systems, all kinds of tablets, phones, desktop, all of that.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:32:21) 一旦你完成了它，它会给你这种巨大的自豪感，因为没有人这样做。没有人真正在乎。在某种程度上，也许他们不在乎是对的。也许没有人注意到这一点，但当这样的事情被忽视时，总会让人觉得有些不对劲，因为我明白，每天，全世界有数千万人在删除消息。他们得到的是什么样的体验？这是一种也许甚至能在潜意识里激励他们、让他们的心歌唱哪怕一点点的体验吗？让他们充满喜悦吗？让他们的心情明亮起来，哪怕只有0.001%？这是不是只是最基本的东西，而我认为，如果我们能给人们的生活带来一些价值，即使是通过这些细微的细节，我们也绝对必须把时间投入其中。

  Pavel Durov (02:32:21) Once you accomplish it, it gives you this immense sense of pride because nobody is doing this. Nobody really cares. In a way maybe they’re right not to care. Maybe nobody notices this, but there is something about it that feels wrong when such things are neglected because I understand that every day, tens of millions of people around the world are deleting messages. What kind of experience they get? Is this an experience that maybe even subconsciously inspires them and makes their hearts sing even a little bit? Fills them with joy? Lightens up their mood, even a little bit by 0.001%? Is it something that is just basic and I think if we can bring some value in people’s lives, even through this subtle details, we have to definitely invest our time in it.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:33:32) 一些喜悦。不单单是像生产力那样的价值，而是喜悦。我认为史蒂夫·乔布斯、乔尼·艾夫谈到过这一点，他们会在所有东西的设计上投入如此多的热爱和努力，包括在早期个人电脑中不可见的东西，因为他们相信，用户会通过某种潜移默化的方式，感受到设计师投入其中的热爱。你完全正确。这不关乎删除消息。当我看到那个蒸发动画时，我感觉到一丝喜悦。就是感觉很好。我因此更快乐了。我感受到了那份努力，而且我认为有十亿用户感受到了。

  Lex Fridman (02:33:32) Some joy. Not just sort of value like productivity, but joy. I think Steve Jobs, Jony Ive talked about this, they would put so much love and effort in the design of everything, including things that weren’t visible in the initial pc, personal computers because they believe that you somehow through osmosis, the users will be able to feel the love that the designers put into the thing and you’re absolutely right. It’s not about deleting messages. I feel a little inkling of joy when I see that evaporation animation. It’s just nice. I’m happier because of it. I feel that effort and I think a billion users feel that.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:34:21) 人们喜欢别人在乎的感觉。

  Pavel Durov (02:34:21) People like when other people care.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:34:23) 是的，是的，是的。 exactly 就是这样。当然，还有更吸引人的东西，比如所有的表情符号、贴纸、礼物，其中很多就像小小的艺术品。

  Lex Fridman (02:34:23) Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s exactly what it is. Of course there’s the more sexy things like all the emojis and the stickers, the gifts, many of those are just, they’re a little like art pieces.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:34:39) 这又是艺术与技术的交汇点，因为你看看贴纸，Telegram 在大多数其他应用之前很久就推出了——

  Pavel Durov (02:34:39) That’s again an intersection of art and technology because you look at the stickers, which Telegram launched way before most of this other apps-

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:34:48) 领先了三年零八个月。

  Lex Fridman (02:34:48) Three years and eight months ahead.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:34:50) …领先于 WhatsApp，是的。WhatsApp 最终在三年零八个月后推出的贴纸，其第一个版本并不太好，因为他们只是用了普通的 GIF 或 WebM 视频，这些不是基于矢量图形的。我们做的是矢量动画。这些贴纸中的每一个只有几KB大小，有时最大可能 20、30 KB，但它有 180 帧。我们能够在所有设备上以每秒60帧的速度运行它们。这也非常具有挑战性。这是一项具有挑战性的事情。我们为了让它能工作费尽了心思。在我们之前，甚至没有人尝试过做类似的事情，因为它极其困难。结果就是，你得到了这些流畅的动画。你获得了这种非常棒的用户体验。有人给你发送一个贴纸，你不需要等待它加载，因为它非常轻量，并且立即开始移动。

  Pavel Durov (02:34:50) … ahead of WhatsApp, yes. The stickers that WhatsApp ended up launching three years and eight months after were not the first version was not really good because they just did regular GIFs or WebM videos, which were not based on vector graphics. What we did is vector animations. Each of these stickers is only several kilobytes, sometimes maybe maximum 20, 30 kilobytes in size, but it says 180 frames. We were able to run them at 60 frames per second on all devices. It’s also very challenging. It was a challenging thing to do. We had so much headache trying to make it work. Nobody even tried to do anything like this before us because it’s crazily difficult. As a result, you have these fluid animations. You have this really nice user experience. Somebody sends you a sticker, you don’t have to wait for it to load because it’s so lightweight and it starts moving instantly.

  (02:35:58) 然后当然，这不仅仅是工程问题。你必须找到能够使用矢量图形创建贴纸的设计师，这意味着它们是基于由公式描述的曲线，而不仅仅是作为带有像素的照片创建的。你从哪里找到这些人？ again，我们举办了比赛，但组建一个我称之为艺术家/工程师的团队来做这样的事情并不容易。这是一种独特的艺术形式，这使我们能够在贴纸领域进行一场革命，然后在动画表情符号领域进行另一场革命，你可以将自定义动画表情符号添加到消息中。我认为没有人这样做过。我认为 Telegram 仍然是唯一允许用户这样做的，因为你可以在一条消息中包含100个动画表情符号，它们会被动画化，会动起来，而你的设备不会崩溃。这可能是不必要的和疯狂的，但我们认为，在艺术与工程的这个交汇处，真正的品质被创造出来。

  (02:35:58) Then of course, it’s not just engineering. You have to find designers that are able to create the stickers using vector graphics, which means they’re based on curves described by formulas, not just created as photographs with pixels. Where do you find these people? Again, we did competitions, but was not easy to assemble a team of artists/engineers I would say, that are able to do something like this. This is a unique form of art and this allowed us to do a revolution in stickers and then another revolution in animated emoji that you can add into messages, custom animated emoji. I don’t think anybody did that. I think Telegram is still the only one allowing users to do that because you can include 100 of animated emoji in a message and they will be animated and it’ll be moving and your device won’t crash. It’s probably unnecessary and crazy, but we think somewhere in this intersection of art and engineering, true quality is created.

  (02:37:14) 然后当然，最近我们扩展到了我们称之为 Telegram Gifts 的东西，它们本质上是基于区块链的收藏品，你可以在你的 Telegram 个人资料上展示它们，使它们具有社交相关性，但你也可以使用它们来祝贺你的朋友和亲人的生日及其他节日，这受到了极大的欢迎。

  (02:37:14) Then of course, more recently we expanded into what we call Telegram Gifts, which are essentially blockchain-based collectibles that you can demonstrate on your Telegram profile so that they get social relevance, but you can also use them to congratulate your friends and close ones with their birthdays and other holidays and that was received extremely well.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:37:41) 是的，它们可以持有价值，可以增值，你可以在那方面交易它们，但对我来说，仍然是矢量图形，而且它不是简单的图形，它是极其复杂的图形。矢量使其非常高效，但它也允许你创造，也许激励艺术家，使他们能够，激励他们，去创造超级详细复杂的元素。然后最终的结果，你会认为这无关紧要，但最终结果有很多事情在进行，它允许你在任意设备上缩放。现在它就像这个小……通常过去的 GIF，以及现在仍然以 meme 形式存在的，都是低分辨率的，所以人们通常不会在其中加入细节和复杂的艺术，但在这里，使用矢量图形，就像有百万件事情在同时进行。它允许你玩转不同的动画。就像你向我展示的那个功能，你发送并在发送按钮上按住一段时间，这样你就可以与你发送消息的人分享你编码的这个动画。当他们阅读消息时，有很多事情在发生。

  Lex Fridman (02:37:41) Yeah, they can hold value, they can increase in value, you could trade them in that aspect, but to me still, vector graphics and it’s not just simple graphics, it’s incredibly intricate graphics. The vector makes it very efficient, but it also allows you to create, maybe incentivizes the artist, enables them, incentivizes them, to create super detailed intricate elements. Then the final result, you would think it wouldn’t matter, but the final result has a lot of stuff going on and it allows you to scale on arbitrary devices. Now it’s like this little… Usually GIFs from back in the day and still in meme form, are low resolution and so usually people don’t put details and intricate art into it, but here with vector graphics it’s like a million things going on. It allows you to play with different animations. Like you showed me this thing where you send and you hold for a while on the send button and so you can share with the person you send a message to this animation that you’ve encoded. There’s a bunch of stuff going on when they read the message.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:38:59) 是的，我们有很多这样的功能，我们利用这种艺术让人们表达自己，而大多数人甚至不知道这些功能。

  Pavel Durov (02:38:59) Yes, we have a lot of features like that when we use this art to allow people to express themselves and most people don’t even know about these features.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:39:10) 我以前不知道。那很酷。那很酷。

  Lex Fridman (02:39:10) I didn’t know about it. That was cool. That was cool.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:39:12) 同一技术的另一个应用是 Telegram 上的反应，因为我们设定了一个目标，确保人们仅仅在给你发送一个赞时也能感受到喜悦。像仅仅给一条消息点赞这样微不足道的动作，也应该是一个你想要一遍又一遍地重复执行的动作。

  Pavel Durov (02:39:12) The other application of the same technology is reactions on Telegram because we made it a goal to make sure that people feel joy when they just send you a like. Something so trivial as just adding a like to a message should be an action that you want to perform again and again and again.

  加密

  Encryption

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:39:43) 另一个功能，在更严肃的方面，是端到端加密。你在这方面引领了行业。它提前一年零三个月推出。你能谈谈你为什么决定添加端到端加密，以及你最初是如何开发加密算法的吗？你背后的想法是什么？

  Lex Fridman (02:39:43) Another feature, on the more serious side, is end-to-end encryption. You led the industry in that. It was launched one year and three months ahead. Can you speak to why you decided to add end-to-end encryption and how you developed the encryption algorithm in the beginning? What was your thinking behind that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:40:03) 在2013年我们推出 Telegram 时，我们意识到了爱德华·斯诺登揭露的严重的隐私问题。我们想，是的，我们正在以一种已经极其安全的方式设计这个产品，但我们想确保甚至连我们自己都无法访问用户消息。我们非常清楚地理解，一群出生在俄罗斯的人不一定能激发信任。这就是为什么我们让 Telegram 开源，所以我们所有的应用自2013年起就在 GitHub 上可用，然后我们在”秘密聊天”中添加了端到端加密，WhatsApp 在几年后复制了这一点。他们提前一年零三个月才开始测试它。我认为他们在2016年推出了这个功能，那是在我们之后三年，我认为行业其他公司不得不这样做的唯一原因是因为我们设定了标准。

  Pavel Durov (02:40:03) At 2013 when we were launching Telegram, we were aware of the serious issue with privacy that Edward Snowden made very clear. We thought, yes, we’re designing this product in a way that is already extremely secure, but we want to make sure that not even we can access user messages. We understood very clearly that a bunch of people who were born in Russia don’t necessarily inspire trust. That’s why we made Telegram open source, so all our apps have been available on GitHub since 2013 and then we added end-to-end encryption in our Secret Chats, which WhatsApp copied a few years after. One year and three months ahead they just started to test it. They rolled this out I think 2016, which is three years after us and the only reason I think the rest of the industry had to do it is because we set the standard.

  (02:41:23) 这在当时极其重要，同时我们也意识到了端到端加密的某些局限性。在这种设计、这种架构内，你无法支持具有一致持久聊天记录的非常大的聊天社区。你无法支持庞大的一对多频道。你在维护接收大量消息的机器人时会遇到问题。多设备支持变得棘手。人们最终会丢失他们分享的一些文件。我们也看到了很多问题，最终我们有了这种混合体验，根据你的使用场景和需求，你可以选择你想要拥有的加密级别。

  (02:41:23) It was incredibly important back in the day and at the same time we realized certain limitations of end-to-end encryption. Within that design, that architecture, you can’t support very large chat communities with consistent persistent chat histories. You can’t support huge one-to-many channels. You’d have issues with maintaining bots that have lots of incoming messages. Multiple device support becomes tricky. People will end up losing some of the documents they share. We also saw a lot of issues and we ended up having this sort of hybrid experience where depending on your use case and your requirements, you can choose the level of encryption that we want to have.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:42:27) 这就是为什么你选择让端到端加密成为可选功能。你所描述的那个权衡是在于，对于那些真正关心特定消息、对这些消息有极端隐私需求的人，和可用性之间，比如能够跨多个设备同步，拥有20万人的群组。所有这些功能，生活质量类的功能，在它们和端到端加密之间存在权衡。你倾向于让用户在需要超级安全的情况下启用端到端加密。

  Lex Fridman (02:42:27) That’s why you chose to go opt-in for end-to-end encryption. The trade off there that you are describing is between for people who really care about specific messages, extreme privacy on those messages and usability, like being able to sync across multiple devices, having groups that are 200,000 people. All of those features, quality of life features, there’s a trade-off between those and end-to-end encryption. You lean towards letting users enable end-to-end encryption for cases when they want to be super secure.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:43:04) 是的。秘密聊天不仅仅是端到端加密。它们有一些限制，这些限制既是特性也是缺陷。例如，你不能对它们进行截图。你不能从它们那里转发任何文件、任何消息，当你在试图完成一些工作，只是在项目上与你的团队沟通时，这不一定是您需要的。我们非常清楚地认识到，这里有不同的需求，如果你试图将两者结合在一种聊天类型中，你最终会失去很多实用性。我们在 Telegram，我们不使用任何协作工具进行团队合作。我们使用 Telegram 来构建 Telegram。当我们试图切换到秘密聊天，分享大文件并试图完成工作时，我们立刻感觉到，它根本不适合这样做。同时，如果你真的多疑，你认为，我不想被截图，我不想有任何泄露，我甚至不信任 Telegram，我只信任代码。那么秘密聊天是最好的选择。我相信这是当今最安全的通信方式。

  Pavel Durov (02:43:04) Yes. Secret Chats are not just end-to-end encrypted. There are certain limitations that are both a feature and a bug. For example, you can’t screenshot them. You can’t forward any document, any message from them, which is not necessarily something you need when you are trying to get some work done and you are just communicating with your team on a project. It became very clear to us that there are different needs here and if you try to combine both in one type of chat, you will end up losing a lot of utility. We at Telegram, we don’t use any collaboration tool for teamwork. We use Telegram to build Telegram. We felt instantly when we were trying to switch to say Secret Chats, to share large documents and tried to get work done, it was just not adapted for it. At the same time, if you were really paranoid, you think, I don’t want to be screenshotted, I don’t want to have any leaks, I don’t even trust Telegram, I only trust code. Secret Chats are the best option. I believe is the most secure means of communication today.

  开源

  Open source

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:44:36) 我们应该说明，这方面还有很多其他重要的方面。例如，Telegram 是唯一一个为 Android 和 iOS 都提供开源可重现构建的应用。为什么这很重要？

  Lex Fridman (02:44:36) We should say that there’s a lot of other aspects to this that are important. For example, Telegram is the only app that has open source reproducible builds for both Android and iOS. Why is this important?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:44:49) 你需要可重现的构建来验证应用确实做了它声称的事情，确实以其网站上描述的方式加密数据。为此，你需要让你的应用开源，以便任何研究人员都可以查看它。Telegram 自2013年起就是开源的。像 WhatsApp 这样的应用从未开源，所以你并不真正知道它们在做什么，以及它们究竟是如何加密你的消息的。但这里重要的是要理解，你从应用商店下载的应用版本是否与你在 GitHub 上可以查看的源代码完全对应。为此你需要可重现的构建。

  Pavel Durov (02:44:49) You need reproducible builds in order to verify that the app really does what it claims, really encrypts data in a way that it is described on its website. For that you need to make your apps open source for any researchers to have a look at it. Telegram has been open source since 2013. Apps like WhatsApp have never been open source, so you don’t really know what they’re doing and how exactly they encrypt your messages. What’s important here though is to understand whether the version of the app that you download from the app store corresponds exactly to the source code that you can view on GitHub. For that you need reproducible builds.

  (02:45:48) 正如你所说，Telegram 是唯一这样做的流行消息应用。我们允许人们在 Android 和 iOS 上确保 GitHub 上的 Telegram 源代码和你实际使用的应用是同一个应用。我认为这极其重要，不仅仅是为了赢得人们的信任，也是为了在这方面保持透明和开放。当我声称 Telegram 的秘密聊天是最安全的通信方式时，我是认真的，因为我还没有看到任何事实反驳这一说法，至少在流行消息应用中。你说 WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage。它们都没有在 iOS 和 Android 上同时具备可重现的构建。它们中至少没有一家在确保你用于加密数据的算法不是由某个机构交给你的、用于创建蜜罐的算法方面投入同样多的努力，至少据我对竞争对手的了解是这样。我不认为他们经历了同样的过程。

  (02:45:48) As you said, Telegram is the only popular messaging app that does that. We allow people to make sure both on Android and the iOS that the source code of Telegram on GitHub and the app you are actually using is the same app. I think it’s incredibly important, not just to gain people’s trust, but just to stay transparent and open about it. When I make this claim that Telegram’s Secret Chats are the most secure way of communicating, I really mean it because I haven’t seen any fact contradicting this claim, at least among the popular messaging app. You say WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage. None of them have reproducible builds on both iOS and Android. None of them had at least at the same level put so much effort into making sure that the algorithms that you use in order to encrypt data are not algorithms that have been handed to you by some agency in order to create a honey pot, at least from what I know about our competitors. I don’t think they went through the same process.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:47:23) 我们应该说明，Telegram 中整个软件栈都是在 Telegram 内部从头开始完成的。我们谈论的不仅仅是加密，还有服务器上运行的一切。服务器是构建出来的，硬件和软件都是在内部完成的，这是你减少处理消息的整个栈受攻击面的方法之一。

  Lex Fridman (02:47:23) We should say that the entirety of the software stack in Telegram is done from scratch internally to Telegram. We’re talking about not just the encryption, but everything running on the servers. The servers are built out, the hardware and the software are all done internally, which is one of the ways you reduce the attack surface on the entire stack that handles the messages.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:47:45) 这确实使它更安全，因为如果斯诺登的揭露教会了我们什么，那就是经常被每个人使用的开源工具、模块、库，最终都存在某些缺陷和安全问题，使软件变得脆弱。这也是确保你以尽可能高效的方式做事的一种方法，但这样做极其困难。你真的必须拥有团队中 exceptional 的人才才能达到这种彻底的程度，深入到低层次的编码，让你能够从头开始重新创建数据库引擎、网络服务器、整个编程语言，因为我们在后端用来开发客户端应用 API 的编程语言也是完全由我们团队构建的。

  Pavel Durov (02:47:45) It does make it more secure because if Snowden’s revelations taught us anything is that very often open source tools, modules, libraries, that they used by everybody, ended up having certain flaws and security issues that make software vulnerable. It’s also a way to make sure you are doing things the most efficient way possible, but it’s extremely difficult to do that. You really have to have exceptional talent in your team to achieve this level of thoroughness, to go to a low level of coding that allows you to recreate from scratch database engines, web servers, entire programming languages because the programming language we use on the back end to develop the API for the client apps is also entirely built by our team.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:49:01) 移除、最小化对开源库的依赖是极其困难的，因为大多数公司都依赖开源库。

  Lex Fridman (02:49:01) Removing, minimizing the reliance on open source libraries is extremely difficult as most companies, they rely on open source libraries.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:49:09) 嗯，我不会说我们完全独立于此。我们在后端使用 Linux。目前我们无法避免这一点，但在很大程度上，我们比大多数其他应用更加自力更生。

  Pavel Durov (02:49:09) Well, I wouldn’t say we are completely independent from that. We use Linux on the back end. There’s no way of avoiding it for us at the moment, but for the most part we are much more self-reliant than most other apps.

  Read All

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• 高压教育、游戏开发、极致优化：Telegram创始人帕维尔·杜罗夫2025年10月播客实录 | 中英文完整版精译 Part3

  2025-10-22

  LZN

  thinking

  thinking

  书童按：本篇是帕维尔·杜罗夫（Pavel Durov）于2025年10月接受Lex Fridman的播客采访实录，Pavel是端到端加密通信软件Telegram的创始人兼CEO。其采访中涉及高压教育、竞争观念、游戏开发、极致性能优化、精英团队、UI设计、用户体验、加密与开源等话题，精彩绝伦，令人击节称赞。初稿采用AI机器翻译，经自动化中英混排，书童仅做简单校对及批注。原稿中英文混排近7万字，书童将分为Part1-4发出，本篇是第三部分，以飨诸君。

  

  高压教育

  Intense education

  (01:33:24) 好的，我们喝了点茶，回来了。让我们回到很多年前，回到最开始。你提到你上过一所教育强度非常大的学校，所以我认为看看那种教育中一些强大的方面会非常有趣，从语言到数学。你能具体描述一下其中一些严格的方面以及你从中收获了什么吗？

  Lex Fridman (01:33:24) All right, we had some tea, we’re back. Let’s go back a bunch of years to the beginning. You mentioned you went to school with super intensive education so I thought it’d be really interesting to look at some of the powerful aspects of that education from the languages to the math. Can you actually describe some of the rigorous aspects of it and what you gained from it?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:33:48) 在11岁的时候，我得到了一个机会，进入了我当时居住的圣彼得堡的一所实验学校，你必须通过严格的考试才能被录取。这所学校的理念是，如果你试图将尽可能多的信息塞进一个青少年的大脑中，重点放在数学和外语上，那么学生的大脑会发生一些变化，使得学生能够理解大多数其他学科。但结果我们有一个班级，它没有任何单一的重点，而是广泛涉及许多学科。你至少要学习四门外语，包括拉丁语、英语、法语、德语，此外，你还可以学习古希腊语。你会有像生物化学或精神分析、进化心理学这样的课程。这个班级与同一所学校（属于圣彼得堡国立大学，称为学术体育馆）的其他班级的不同之处在于，不像其他班级专注于某个单一学科，如物理、数学或历史，这个班级试图从所有这些专业班级中汲取精华，并将其融入一个课程体系中。由于这是一个实验班，不可能成为一个全优生，在所有科目上都出类拔萃，甚至尝试这样做都被认为是疯狂的。

  Pavel Durov (01:33:48) At the age of 11, I got the opportunity to enter an experimental school in St. Petersburg where I lived and you had to pass a rigorous test to get accepted. The idea behind the school was that, if you try to squeeze as much information as possible into a brain of a teenager making a focus on maths and foreign languages, then there will be some changes in the brain of the student that will allow the student to understand most other disciplines. But we had a class, as a result, that didn’t have any single focus, it was very widespread across a lot of disciplines. You would have four foreign languages at least including Latin, English, French, German, in addition, you can get ancient Greek. You would have classes like biochemistry or psychoanalysis, evolutionary psychology. The difference of this class as opposed to other classes in the same school which was part of the St. Petersburg State University called academic gymnasium was that, unlike other classes which were specialized in some single subject like physics or maths or history, this one tried to get the best from all of these specialized classes and bring into one curriculum. Since it was an experimental class, it wasn’t possible to become a straight A student, to be excellent in all the subject, it’s always considered crazy to even try.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:35:48) 所以，它假设没有人能够应对，你只是在挑战人类思维的极限。四门语言并行，数学，进化心理学，就是用信息淹没大脑，看看会发生什么。

  Lex Fridman (01:35:48) So, it’s assumed nobody’s able to handle it, you’re just pushing the limits of the human mind. Four languages in parallel, math, evolutionary psychology, just overwhelming the mind and see what happens.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:35:59) 是的，看看会发生什么。这是一项实验，而且是在90年代中期，记得吗，那时候俄罗斯，尤其是它的教育系统，不像今天这样规范。它处于俄罗斯历史的两个阶段之间，即苏联历史和21世纪现代俄罗斯历史之间的中间时期。无论如何，我从那段经历中学到了很多。首先，我进入这所学校是因为我不断被其他学校开除。

  Pavel Durov (01:35:59) Yes, see what happens. This was an experiment and it was in the middle of the ’90s, remember, when Russia, particularly its educational system, wasn’t regulated as much as it is today. It was in the middle between the two stages of the Russian history, the Soviet’s history and the modern Russian history of the 21st century. In any case, I learned a lot from that experience. First of all, why I got into this school is because I kept being kicked out from other schools.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:36:38) 挑战权威？

  Lex Fridman (01:36:38) Challenging authority?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:36:39) 我所有科目都很好，但行为表现不好。在90年代初的苏联，我们有这种行为评分，也许他们今天还有，我不确定。我的行为表现非常差，总是挑战老师，总是指出他们的错误。

  Pavel Durov (01:36:39) I was good at all subjects but not behavior. We had this behavior grade in the Soviet Union in early ’90s, perhaps they even have it today, I’m not sure. I was very bad at behavior, always challenging the teachers, always pointing out their mistakes.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:36:59) 顺便说一下，这并不完全是坏事，对吧？如果你回头看，这对年轻人来说是有一定价值的，也许要带着尊重，但挑战权威，挑战旧的智慧，对吧？

  Lex Fridman (01:36:59) By the way, that’s not such a bad thing, right? If you were looking back, there’s some value to that for young people to, maybe respectfully, but challenge the authority, the wisdom of old, right?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:37:14) 我认为我非常幸运能够这样做，并且最终能够安然无恙，因为通常情况下，如果你不断挑战权威，你只会被所有学校开除，然后一事无成。所以，我最终进入了一所学校，在那里挑战老师虽然不是完全没问题，但却是你可以做的事情，然后你会和老师展开辩论，通常他们会允许你表达你的观点，然后一些客观的真理可能会由此产生。

  Pavel Durov (01:37:14) I think I was very lucky to be able to do that and to be able to get away with it in the end because, normally, if you keep challenging authorities, you just get kicked out of all schools and then you end up nowhere. So, I eventually got into a school where challenging teachers was not fully okay but it was something that you could do and then you would start a debate with the teacher and normally they would allow you to express your point of view and then some objective truth may come out of it as a result.

  (01:37:58) 但在那个时候，我对我的生活感到相当无聊，每个青少年都会到达一个点，当他们有这种存在主义危机时。生活的意义是什么？我到底在这里做什么？在某个时刻，我决定，既然我反正必须上学，我不妨尝试做一些不可能的事情，成为最好的学生，并在每一个科目上都得到A，或者我们在俄罗斯系统中称之为五分，这让我忙了一阵子。

  (01:37:58) But at that point, I was pretty bored with my life, every teenager gets to a point when they have this sort of existential crisis. What’s the point of life? What am I even doing here? At some point, I decided, since I have to go to school anyway, I might as well try to do something impossible and become the best student and get an A or what we called five in the Russian system on every single subject and that kept me busy for a while.

  (01:38:40) 这非常困难，因为你没有足够的时间。即使你只是不停地学习，不做任何其他事情，你也没有任何剩余时间来准备所有的家庭作业、任务并为所有考试做好准备。所以，我最终利用了课间休息时间，但我达到了我想要达到的结果。我在每个科目都得到了优秀的分数，这让我高兴了一阵子。

  (01:38:40) It was incredibly difficult because you didn’t have enough time. Even if you just studied all the time, not doing anything else, you didn’t have any time left to prepare all the homework, tasks and get ready for all the tests. So, I ended up using the breaks between classes but I get to the result I wanted to get to. I got the excellent mark in every subject and that kept me happy for a while.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:39:19) 通过同时学习外语并进行如此多样化的学习，你对一个有效的教育系统有什么理解？如果你要从头开始为年轻人设计一个教育系统，尤其是在21世纪，那会是什么样子？你曾发文谈到数学作为一切基础的价值。

  Lex Fridman (01:39:19) What did you understand about an effective education system from studying foreign language at the same time doing such a diversity? If you were to design an education system from scratch for young people, especially in the 21st century, what would that look like? You posted about the value of mathematics as a foundation for everything.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:39:39) 是的。我仍然认为数学是必不可少的。它能塑造你的大脑，它教你依靠逻辑思维，将大问题分解成小部分，按正确的顺序排列，耐心地解决它们，如果不行就再试一次。这与你编程、项目管理以及当你创办自己的公司时需要的技能完全相同。这是学校里少数几个鼓励你发展自己思维，而不是依赖别人怎么说、只是重复他们观点的科目之一。这是极其宝贵的。当然，一旦你擅长数学，你就可以把它应用到物理、工程、编码中。大多数最成功的科技公司创始人和首席执行官都非常擅长数学和编码，这并不奇怪，因为归根结底，你依赖的是相同的思维技能。

  Pavel Durov (01:39:39) Yeah. I still think math is essential. It’s something that shapes your brain, it teaches you to rely on your logical thinking to split big problems into smaller parts, put them in the right sequence, solve them patiently, trying again if it doesn’t work. This is exactly the same skill you’ll need in programming and project management and start it when you start your own company. And it’s one of the few subjects to school which encourages you to develop your own thinking as opposed to rely on what other people have to say and just repeating their opinions. That is extremely valuable. And of course, once you’re good at math, you can apply it in physics, in engineering, in coding. And it’s not surprising that most of the most successful tech founders and CEOs are very good at matters in coding because, ultimately, it’s the same mental skill that you rely on.

  (01:41:05) 但在当时学校里，我也意识到了另一点，那就是竞争确实非常重要，竞争是关键。这是激励许多青少年的因素，如果有学校存在，如果你把竞争从教育系统中移除，你最终会迫使孩子们开始在其他地方竞争，例如，在电子游戏中。这是你现在在许多国家看到的趋势，包括西方，当善意的当局或父母说我们不希望我们的孩子压力太大，我们不希望他们感到焦虑，所以让我们取消所有公开的评分系统，所有这些谁赢谁输的排名，我们不要任何这些。

  (01:41:05) But back then in the school, I realized something else as well, it’s that competition is really important, competition is key. This is what motivates a lot of teenagers when there is school and, if you remove competition out of the education system, you end up forcing kids to start competing elsewhere, for example, in video games. It’s a trend you see now in many countries, including in the West, when well-meaning authorities or parents say we don’t want our kids to be too stressed, we don’t want them to feel anxiety so let’s just get rid of all the public grading system, all these rankings of who won, who lost, we don’t want any of that.

  (01:42:06) 其中一部分是合理的，但结果是，一些孩子失去了兴趣。是的，你消除了失败者，但你最终也消除了赢家。然后，如果你在那个年龄段对孩子过度保护，他们长大，从学校、大学毕业，他们仍然没有为现实生活做好准备，因为现实生活是为工作、晋升、客户而不断竞争，而且更加残酷。

  (01:42:06) And part of it is justified but, as a result, some kids lose interest. Yes, you eliminate the losers but you end up eliminating the winners as well. And then, if you are overprotective of the kids in that age, they grow up, graduate schools, the universities and they’re still not prepared for real life because real life is constant competition for jobs, for promotions, for customers and it’s more brutal.

  (01:42:47) 你最终得到的是高自杀率、高失业率，以及所有你现在在许多国家看到的负面趋势和事情，这些国家认为从他们的教育系统中消除竞争是个好主意。他们仍然坚持，仍然认为竞争是坏事，他们也在一定程度上试图从他们的经济中消除竞争，说我们要确保失败者不会输，赢家不会得到太多，但结果，他们使他们整个系统、整个经济竞争力下降。

  (01:42:47) What you have as a result is high suicide rates, high unemployment, all the things and negative trends you see now in many countries which thought eliminating competition from their education system was a good idea. They still persist, they still think competition is a bad thing, they try to eliminate competition from their economy as well to an extent saying we are going to make sure the losers don’t lose and the winners don’t get too much but, as a result, they make their entire systems less competitive, their entire economies.

  (01:43:34) 其中一些在欧洲的国家现在正努力跟上大东方国家、韩国、新加坡、日本和其他教育系统基于无情竞争的地方。所以，这是任何文明都必须做出的艰难选择。我们是支持竞争，理解它最终会带来科学技术的进步和整个社会的繁荣，还是我们移除竞争，认为我们可以以某种方式保护后代免受竞争不可避免地带来的压力。

  (01:43:34) Some of them in Europe are now struggling to keep up with BigEast, with South Korea, with Singapore, with Japan and other places where the education system was based on ruthless competition. So, this is a hard choice any civilization has to make. We support competition understanding that, eventually, it leads to progress in science and technology and abundance for society at large or we remove competition thinking that somehow we can shield the future generations from the stress that competition inevitably causes.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:44:22) 是的，这源于一种良好的同情本能，你不想让不擅长某事的人感到痛苦，但似乎挣扎是生活的一部分，你要么早点经历，要么晚点经历。确实，这是个很好的观点，竞争似乎是技能发展的一个非常强大的驱动力，就像你提到的，追求精通。人性中有某种东西，特别是对年轻人来说，如果你能在某件事上竞争，你就会被强烈驱动去把那件事做好。如果你能像大东方国家那样，像你提到的许多国家那样，在教育系统中引导这种竞争，那么你将培养出许多杰出的人才。

  Lex Fridman (01:44:22) Yeah, it’s grounded in a good instinct of compassion, you don’t want people who suck at a thing to feel pain but it seems like struggle is a part of life, either you do it earlier or you do it later. And it’s true, that’s such a good point that competition does seem to be a really powerful driver of skill development, like you mentioned, pursuing mastery. There’s something in human nature that, especially for young people, if you can compete at a thing, you’re going to be really driven to get good at that thing. If you can direct that in the education system as BigEast does, as many nations like you mentioned do, then you’re going to develop a lot of brilliant people.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:45:00) … 那样做，那么你将培养出许多杰出的人才，有韧性的人，准备好在这个世界上创造史诗般成就的人。

  Lex Fridman (01:45:00) … do, then you’re going to develop a lot of brilliant people, resilient people, people that are ready to create epic shit in the world.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:45:07) 我认为有大量证据证明我们在生物学上就被设定为要竞争，并建立我们对自己品质和才能的理解，这种理解是相对于我们周围其他人的，这是社会自我调节的方式之一。

  Pavel Durov (01:45:07) I think there is a lot of evidence proving that we are biologically wired to compete and establish our understanding of what our qualities are and talents are in relation to other people around us, and this is one of the ways society self-regulates.

  尼古拉·杜罗夫

  Nikolai Durov

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:45:30) 说到竞争，你的哥哥尼古拉，他是一位数学家、程序员、密码学专家。他赢得了IMO国际数学奥林匹克竞赛，获得了三次金牌，ICPC编程竞赛，两次获奖，拥有两个数学博士学位，你们已经合作多年，创造了我们一直在谈论的令人难以置信的技术。那么你从你哥哥身上学到了关于生活的什么？

  Lex Fridman (01:45:30) Speaking of competition, your brother, Nikolai, he’s a mathematician, programmer, expert in cryptography. He has won the IMO International Mathematics Olympiad, he got gold medal three times, ICPC programming, two times, has two PhDs in mathematics, and you have worked together for many years creating incredible technologies that we’ve been talking about. So what have you learned about just life from your brother?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:46:02) 嗯，首先，我必须说我从我哥哥那里学到了几乎所有的东西，我所知道的一切，因为当我们还是孩子的时候，我们睡在同一间卧室里，床相隔几英尺，我不停地用问题打扰他。我会问他关于恐龙、星系、黑洞和尼安德特人的问题，所有我能想到的东西，他是我在那个我们还不能上网的时代里的维基百科。他是一个独特的神童，可能是十亿里挑一的。

  Pavel Durov (01:46:02) Well, first of all, I must say I learned pretty much everything from my brother, everything I know, because when we were used to be kids, we slept in the same bedroom, like beds a few feet away from each other, and I kept bugging him with questions. I would ask him about dinosaurs and galaxies and black holes and Neanderthals, everything I could think of, and he was my Wikipedia back in the time when we didn’t have internet access. He’s a unique prodigy kid, probably one of a billion.

  (01:46:45) 我想他三岁就开始阅读，而且他在数学上进步得非常快，到了六岁的时候，他已经能阅读非常复杂的天文学书籍了。有时当他在公共场所这样做时，比如公共汽车或地铁上，我妈妈会受到目睹此事的人的批评。他们会对她说：”你为什么用这本严肃的书来戏弄你自己的小孩？很明显这孩子不能理解里面的所有东西。这太复杂了，连我们都不理解里面的任何东西。里面有一些公式，”而他当时已经在吸收这些知识了。他就是有这种对信息的渴求。

  (01:46:45) He started reading at the age of three, I think, and he pretty fast got so advanced in maths, that by the age of six, he could already read really sophisticated books on astronomy. Sometimes when he did it in public places, like buses or metro, my mom was criticized by people who were witnessing it. They would tell her, “Why are you mocking your own kid with this serious book? It’s obvious that the kid can’t understand everything there. It’s too complicated even we don’t understand anything there. There’s some formulas,” and he was already sucking in this knowledge. He just has this thirst for information.

  (01:47:39) 所以他是各种伟大事实、有用东西、鼓舞人心事物的来源。他教给了我几乎我所知道的一切。同时，他极其谦虚和善良，我认为这是许多自以为聪明但缺乏普遍智慧的人所欠缺的。大多数情况下，真正聪明的人，他们也善良且富有同情心。

  (01:47:39) So he was the source of all kind of great facts, useful things, inspiring things. He taught me pretty much everything I know. At the same time, he’s incredibly modest and kind, and this is something I think a lot of people that think they’re smart but not generally intelligent lack. More often than not, people who are truly intelligent, they’re also kind and compassionate.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:48:18) 他是那样的人吗？

  Lex Fridman (01:48:18) And he is that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:48:20) 绝对是。

  Pavel Durov (01:48:20) Definitely.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:48:21) 你实际上大部分时间都远离公众视线。你很少接受采访，相当低调，但你的哥哥是另一个级别的。他一直远离公众视线。这背后是什么原因？

  Lex Fridman (01:48:21) You actually have been staying out of the public eye for the most part. You’ve done very few interviews, you’re pretty low-key, but your brother is in another level. He’s been staying out of the public eye. What’s behind that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:48:34) 部分原因是他天生的谦逊。他不需要这样做。他没有那种炫耀、吹嘘事情的冲动。我也试图避免，但在某个时刻，我意识到我过于私密、过于隐秘变成了一种负担，因为它制造了这种空白，这种空虚，那些非常不喜欢 Telegram 的个人和组织愿意用不准确的信息来填补，他们愿意传播关于 Telegram 的叙事，这可能导致奇怪的情况，其中一些我们之前讨论过。例如，那个法国的调查。

  Pavel Durov (01:48:34) Part of it is his natural modesty. He doesn’t need to do it. He doesn’t feel this urge to show off, brag about stuff. I tried to avoid it as well, but at a certain point I realized that me being too private, too secretive becomes a liability because it creates this void, this emptiness that people and organizations that don’t like Telegram very much are willing to fill with inaccurate information and they’re willing to spread the narratives about Telegram, which can result in strange situations, some of which we discussed earlier. For example, this French investigation.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:49:32) 是的，我越来越了解你，你身上有一种深刻的诚信，我认为向世界展示这一点是好的。用户隐私面临很多攻击向量，我认为最重要、最后的保护墙是实际运营公司的人，所以在某种程度上，你出现在那里展示真实的自我是很重要的。

  Lex Fridman (01:49:32) Yeah, I’ve gotten to know you more and more and there’s a deep integrity to you that I think is good to show to the world. There’s a lot of attack vectors on user privacy and I think the most important, the last wall of protection is the actual people that are running the company, so it’s important to some degree for you to be out there to showing your true self.

  编程和电子游戏

  Programming and video games

  (01:49:55) 所以我们应该说一下，你虽然没有提到，但你从小就是一名程序员。你10岁开始编码。你最早构建的东西是在11岁时制作的一款电子游戏，然后最终在10年后，21岁时，你独立编程了VK的最初版本。你能跟我谈谈你的编程历程，以及它如何引导到VK的创建吗？VK的技术栈是什么？主要是PHP吗？你是如何学会编程网站，所有这一切的？

  (01:49:55) So we should say that also you didn’t mention, but you were a programmer from an early age. You started coding at 10. First things you built are a video game at 11, and then eventually 10 years later, 21, you programmed the initial versions of VK single-handedly. Can you talk to me about your programming journey that led to the creation of VK? What was the VK stack? Is it PHP mostly? How did you figure out how to program websites, all of that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:50:27) 是的，我起初可能对网站不那么感兴趣。我10岁的时候甚至还不能上网，但我喜欢电子游戏。我没有足够的游戏，这种稀缺性迫使我开始制作它们，更多的是电脑游戏，只是为了自己玩。

  Pavel Durov (01:50:27) Yeah, I wasn’t as interested in probably websites at first. I didn’t even have access to the internet when I was 10 years old, but I liked video games. I didn’t have enough of them and the scarcity forced me to start building them, more computer games, just to play myself.

  (01:50:49) 这实际上是一件有趣的事情，我们有时没有意识到，但稀缺导致创造力，来自苏联或其他无法获得太多现代技术，更重要的是现代娱乐的地方，有那么多热爱编码的人的原因之一是，也许我们没有被所有这些丰富的不同娱乐选项所分散注意力，这并不是说拥有这些选项是坏事。这只是我们有时没有意识到的一个事实。

  (01:50:49) It’s actually an interesting thing that we sometimes don’t realize it, but scarcity leads to creativity, and one of the reasons you have so many people who love to code coming from the Soviet Union or other places which didn’t have much access to modern technology, and more importantly modern entertainment, is that perhaps we were not so much distracted by all this abundance of different entertainment options, which is not to say it’s bad to have those options. It’s just a fact that we sometimes don’t appreciate.

  (01:51:34) 所以我开始构建电脑游戏。我哥哥有时会指导我。例如，我会创建一个回合制策略游戏。当然是二维的。那时候三维对我来说太难了。但在滚动FPS、每秒帧数参数方面，它不够流畅，我问我哥哥如何优化它。他会指导我，这种学习和训练在我年轻时就塑造了我的编码技能。

  (01:51:34) So I started to build computer games. My brother would sometimes guide me. For example, I would create a turn-based strategy. Of course, two-dimensional. Back then three-dimensional was too much for me. But it wasn’t as slick in terms of the scrolling FPS, frames per second, parameter, and I asked my brother how to optimize it. He would guide me, and this kind of learning and training really shaped my coding skills when I was younger.

  (01:52:21) 然后我开始为我的同学们创建电子游戏，例如，当我们在课间休息时在教室里玩无限区域上的井字游戏时。不是三子连珠的井字游戏，这是关于五子连珠，并且是在一个无限区域上。这是一个有趣得多的游戏，如果你继续玩下去，它会变得相当复杂。我的同学们曾经很喜欢它，我的一些同学非常聪明，是数学奥林匹克竞赛的冠军，是大学里教授们的子女，我决定，”不，我想每次都赢。我甚至一次都不想输。那么我怎么能赢呢？我需要更多练习，但我怎么才能更多练习呢？我需要一个比我更强的对手。”

  (01:52:21) Then I started to create video games for my classmates when we played, for example, tic-tac-toe on an infinite field in my class during the breaks. And not tic-tac-toe the three in a row, this was about five in a row and in an infinite field. This is a much more interesting game and it gets quite complicated if you keep playing it. My classmates used to love it and some of my classmates were really smart, champions of math olympiads, sons and daughters of professors at the university, and I decided, “No, I want to win every single time. I don’t want to lose even a single time. So how do I win? I need to practice more, but how do I practice more? I need an opponent stronger than myself.”

  (01:53:08) 所以我编写了这个游戏，这样我就可以和电脑对战，电脑会计算，我想，提前四步来选择最优策略。那还不够。提前四步，我仍然能赢它。如果我尝试计算五步或六步，那就太慢了，所以请我哥哥帮我。于是他做了这个算法。最终，我训练自己每次都赢，即使和电脑对战，那时候我们没有现代CPU，我仍然可以保持一些自信。

  (01:53:08) So I coded this game so that I would play against the computer and the computer would calculate, I think, four moves in advance to choose the optimal strategy. That wasn’t enough. Four moves in advance, I would still win over it. If I tried to calculate five or six, it was too slow, so asked my brother to help me out here. So he made this algorithm. Eventually, I trained myself to win every single time, even with the computer back then, we didn’t have modern CPUs, and I could still retain some self-confidence.

  (01:53:54) 我会在课间休息时回到学校，和我的同学们玩，很快人们就开始失去兴趣。我的同学中没有人再想玩这个游戏了。我毁掉了这个游戏，因为…

  (01:53:54) I would go back to school during breaks, play with my classmates, and soon people started to lose interest. None of my classmates wanted to play this game anymore. I killed the game because there’s…

  VK 起源与工程

  VK origins & engineering

  (01:54:09) 在那之后，当我进入圣彼得堡国立大学时，仅仅学习是相当无聊的，因为太容易了。所以我想，”我在那里能做什么？” 我首先为我所在院系的学生创建了一个网站。我组织了将所有考试的答案和所有讲座的数字化版本创建起来，这在那时是非常独特的。记住，那是25年前。我会建立一个网站，在那里发布所有这些材料，很快它就变得非常受欢迎。我在那里开了一个讨论论坛。几年内，我将其扩展到了大学的所有其他部门，然后扩展到其他大学。最终我们拥有了数万用户，仅仅作为一个学生门户。我们在那里有各种社交功能，好友列表、相册、个人资料、博客。应有尽有。

  (01:54:09) So after that, when I got into the St. Petersburg State University, it was quite boring just to study because it was too easy. So I thought, “What can I do there?” I created a website for the students of my faculty first. I organized the creation of digital answers to all exams and digitalized version of all lectures, which was something very unique back then. Remember, it was 25 years ago. I would put together a website where I would publish all this materials, and pretty soon it became super popular. I opened a discussion forum there. In a few years, I expanded to the university with all of its other departments, and then to other universities. We ended up having tens of thousands of users just as a student’s portal. We had all kinds of social features there, friends lists, photo albums, profiles, blogs. All of it.

  (01:55:29) 它相当成功，在我大学毕业后，我的一位中学同学在看到圣彼得堡主要商业报纸上关于我成功的报道后联系了我，他问我，”你是在尝试打造一个俄罗斯的Facebook吗？” 我说，”我不确定。什么是Facebook？” 于是我们见面了。由于他两年前从一所美国大学毕业，他向我展示了Facebook。我想，”嗯，我已经拥有了所有这些技术，但知道我应该去掉哪些元素以便扩展这个东西并拥有数百万用户是很有价值的。”

  (01:55:29) It was quite successful, and after I graduated the university, one of my ex-classmates from the school reached out to me after reading about my successes in a newspaper, the main business newspaper of St. Petersburg, and he asked me, “Are you trying to build a Russian Facebook?” I said, “I’m not sure. What’s Facebook?” So we met. Since he graduated an American university two years before that, he showed me Facebook. I thought, “Well, I can’t already have all of this technology, but it’s valuable to know which elements I should get rid of in order to scale this thing and have millions of users.”

  (01:56:25) 这也是人们没有意识到的一点，有时候为了向前发展并获得更多成功，你必须舍弃一些东西，包括技术。舍弃功能非常重要。

  (01:56:25) This is also something people don’t appreciate that sometimes in order to move forward and have more success, you have to get rid of things, including technology. Getting rid of features is super important.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:56:40) 简化，既是为了扩展，也是为了使其易于用户基础增长，让人们能立即理解。

  Lex Fridman (01:56:40) Simplify, both for scaling and for making it amenable to just growing the user base where people get it immediately.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:56:50) 是的。否则，对新用户来说就太复杂了。现有用户会很高兴，他们会赞美你，他们会要求你添加更多东西，让它变得更复杂，所以如果你只依赖现有用户的反馈，很容易迷失方向，不知所措。

  Pavel Durov (01:56:50) Yes. Otherwise, it’s just too complicated for the new user. The existing users will be happy, they’ll be praising you, they will be asking you to add more stuff to make it even more complicated, so it’s easy to lose track and get disoriented if you are only relying on the feedback of existing users.

  (01:57:18) 因此，我启动了一个名为 VKontakte 或 VK 的网站，在俄语中意思是”保持联系”，最初是为了解决我个人的问题。我那一年大学毕业，我想与我在大学里的老同学和其他同学保持联系。当然，作为一个20岁的年轻人，我也想认识其他人，包括漂亮的女孩。

  (01:57:18) So as a result, I started the website called VKontakte or VK, it means “in touch” in Russian, initially to solve my own personal problem. I graduated the university that same year and I wanted to be in touch or remain in touch with my ex-classmates from the university and the other fellow students. And of course, as a 20-year-old, I wanted to meet other people, including good-looking girls.

  (01:57:46) 所以我从头开始构建它。对于这个项目，我想，”我不会使用任何第三方库、模块，因为我想让它尽可能高效。” 我痴迷于每一行代码，但那么庞大的项目该如何开始呢？我之前没有任何创建那种规模项目的经验，那将涉及所有方面。以前，我会重用一些现有的解决方案。在这里，我想从头开始构建。

  (01:57:46) So I started to build it from scratch. For that one, I thought, “I’m not going to use any third-party libraries, modules because I want to make it as efficient as possible.” I was obsessing over every line of code, but then how do you start something that large? I didn’t have any prior experience creating a project of that scale, which would involve everything. Before, I would reuse some existing solutions. Here, I wanted to build from scratch.

  (01:58:26) 所以我打电话给我哥哥。他当时是德国马克斯·普朗克大学的博士后，我问他，”我应该从哪里开始？” 他告诉我，”就构建一个用户认证模块，只是登录，甚至不用登出，只是登录，因为你可以用凭证、邮箱和密码预填充数据库。这并不重要。但一旦你看到你可以输入你的密码和邮箱，然后你进去了，它用你的名字对你说’你好’，那么你就会清楚地知道该从哪里继续了。”

  (01:58:26) So I called my brother. He was a post-doc student in Germany at the time in the Max Planck university, and I asked him, “What should I start from?” And he told me, “Just build a module to authorize users, just to log in, not even to sign out, just to log in because you can pre-populate the database with credentials and emails and passwords. It doesn’t really matter. But once you see that you can type in your password and email and you are in and it tells you, ‘Hello,’ using your name, then you will have a clear understanding where to go from there.”

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (01:59:22) 是的。我的意思是，确实如此。

  Lex Fridman (01:59:22) Yeah. I mean, that’s true.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (01:59:24) 这是我一生中收到的最好的建议之一。顺便说一句，它效果非常好。我开始构建它，在我意识到之前，我就在网站上有了相册、私信、这个留言簿。我们过去在VK上，我猜在Facebook早期，称之为”墙”。我们最终构建了比当时Facebook更复杂、功能更多的东西。

  Pavel Durov (01:59:24) That’s one of the best advice I’ve ever got in my life. It worked perfectly, by the way. I started to build it and before I knew it, I would have there on the website photo albums, private messages, this guest book. We used to call it “thee wall” back on VK and I guess in the early days of Facebook. We’d end up building something even more sophisticated than Facebook at the time with more features.

  (01:59:54) 我当时有个女朋友。我请她，”我们需要以某种方式建立所有俄罗斯学校和大学以及系和细分部门的数据库。” 她做得非常出色，尝试在线搜集所有这些信息，有时给大学写邮件说，”你们目前到底有哪些系？我们需要知道，”或者联系教育部，在俄罗斯，然后在乌克兰，最终在白俄罗斯和哈萨克斯坦以及其他VK最终成为最大和最受欢迎的社交网络的国家。

  (01:59:54) I had a girlfriend at the time. I asked her, “We need to somehow come up with a database of all Russian schools and universities and the departments and subdivisions.” She did a great job trying to source all this information online or sometimes writing emails to universities saying, “Which departments do you have exactly at this point? We need to know,” or reaching out to the Department of Education, but in Russia and then in Ukraine, and then eventually in Belarus and in Kazakhstan and other countries where VK ended up to be the largest and most popular social network.

  (02:00:38) 所以我们当时做了一些相当独特的事情，在最初的将近一年里，我是公司唯一的员工。我是后端工程师、前端工程师、设计师。我是客服人员。我也是市场人员，想出所有的措辞和公告，想出推广VK的竞赛，这些效果相当好。那是一段不可思议的经历，让我了解了社交网络平台的方方面面。

  (02:00:38) So we did a few things that were quite unique at the time, and for the first almost a year, I was the single employee of the company. I was the backend engineer, the front-end engineer, the designer. I was the customer support officer. I was the marketing guy as well, coming up with all the wordings and the announcements, coming up with competitions to promote VK, which worked quite well. That was an incredible experience that gave me knowledge of every aspect of a social networking platform.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:01:30) 也理解了单个人能做多少事。

  Lex Fridman (02:01:30) Also understanding of how much a single person can do.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:01:32) 完全正确。这是为什么我喜欢认为自己是Telegram内部高效的项目经理和产品经理的原因之一，因为我只会向我的团队成员要求雄心勃勃的截止日期。如果有人给我，”哦，我需要三周时间来做那个，”我总是回答，”嗯，我构建VK的第一个版本只用了两周。你为什么需要三周？看起来像是你三天就能完成的事情。三周？除了这三天，剩下的三周你打算做什么？”

  Pavel Durov (02:01:32) Exactly. It’s one of the reasons why I’d like to think I’m an efficient project manager and product manager inside Telegram because I will not take anything but ambitious deadlines from my team members. If somebody gives me, “Oh, I need three weeks to do that,” I always reply, “Well, I built the first version of VK in just two weeks. Why would you need three weeks? It seems like something you could make real in just three days. Three weeks? What are you going to do the rest of the three weeks apart from this three days?”

  (02:02:18) 团队了解我，这就是为什么我们今天，Telegram，能够以非常快的创新步伐前进。每个月我们都会推出几个有意义的功能，我认为在这个行业中，在短时间内能完成的事情方面，我们超越了所有其他人。所以是的，那段经历是无价的。

  (02:02:18) And the team knows me, and that’s why we are able today, Telegram, to move at a very good pace of innovation. Every month we’re pushing several meaningful features, I think out-competing everybody else in this industry in terms of what you can do within a short timeframe. So yes, that experience was invaluable.

  (02:02:52) 至于技术栈，我从PHP和MySQL，Debian Linux开始，但很快我意识到，”我需要优化这个。” 我开始使用Memcached。Apache服务器不够用了。我们不得不设置NGINX。我哥哥当时还住在德国，所以在构建VK的第一年里，他帮不了我太多。有时我设法通过电话联系到他。我会用老式的有线电话打给他。我说，”我该怎么办？我怎么安装这个叫NGINX的东西？我不是Linux专家。” 如果他那天感觉特别好心并且不太忙，他会告诉我怎么做或者亲自设置，但大多数情况下，我不得不只依靠自己。

  (02:02:52) As for the stack, I started from PHP and MySQL, Debian Linux, but very soon I realized, “I need to optimize this.” I started using Memcached. Apache servers were not enough anymore. We had to set up NGINX. And my brother was still living in Germany, so he couldn’t help me much for the first year of building VK. Sometimes I would manage to get through to him through a call. I would use an old-school phone to call him with wires. I said, “What do I do? How do I install this thing called NGINX? I’m not a Linux guy.” If he felt particularly kind that day and not too busy, he would show me the way to do it or set it up himself, but for the most part, I had to rely on just myself.

  (02:03:53) 然而，有他在那里对我们开始快速增长并开始扩展时有帮助，因为起初，你意识到，”一台服务器不够了。我需要再买一台。然后一台又一台。” 数据库应该在另一台服务器上。然后你必须把数据库分成表。然后你必须想出一种方法，根据某种不会破坏你用户体验的有意义的标准来对表进行分片。

  (02:03:53) Having him there though helped when we started to grow fast and started to scale it, because at first, you realize, “One server is not enough. I need to buy another one. Then another one and another one.” The database should be in a different server. Then you have to split the database into tables. Then you have to come up with a way to chart the tables using some criteria that would make sense that wouldn’t break your user experience.

  (02:04:28) 当我们用户超过一百万，服务器超过十几台时，没有我哥哥在扩展方面的投入，生存下去变得不可能。我记得请他回来，”你需要帮我处理这个东西。它开始变得非常庞大了。” 更糟糕的是，自从我们变得流行起来，有人开始对我们进行DDoS攻击，就像经常发生的那样。然后我们有人想购买VK的股份，有趣的是，每次我们有谈判的日子，DDoS攻击就会加剧，所以我们不得不找出应对的方法。我记得有很多个不眠之夜试图解决它。

  (02:04:28) When we got to over a million users and beyond a dozen of servers surviving without the input from my brother in terms of taking care of the scaling aspect, it became impossible. I remember asking him to come back, “You need to help me with this thing. It’s starting to be really big.” What was worse is that since we became popular, somebody started to do DDoS attacks on us, as it always happens. And then we had people that wanted to buy a share of VK, and interestingly, every time we had a negotiation day, the DDoS attacks intensified, so we had to come up with a way to fight it. I remembered having many sleepless nights trying to figure it out.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:05:30) 所以这是你初次接触各种恶意行为者，DDoS，商业。然后后来你会发现还有政治这种东西，然后后来，地缘政治。但这是初始阶段，不仅仅是创造酷炫的东西，还必须应对，就像你现在必须应对Telegram一样，是大量的恶意行为者试图测试系统的极限，试图破坏系统。

  Lex Fridman (02:05:30) So that was your introduction to all kinds of bad actors, DDoS, business. Then later you’d find out there’s such a thing called politics, and then later, geopolitics. But this is the initial stages, that it’s not just about creating cool stuff, it’s having to deal with, as you now have to deal with with Telegram, is seas of bad actors trying to test the limits of the system, trying to break the system.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:06:02) 不幸的是。如果我们没有恶意行为者和压力，那将是最好的工作。你只需要创造。

  Pavel Durov (02:06:02) Unfortunately. If we didn’t have bad actors and pressure, it would be the best job ever. You just get to create.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:06:12) 是的，是的。所以你哥哥的帮助，就像你提到的NGINX和对表进行分片，这些扩展问题有些是算法性质的。这几乎像是理论计算机科学。所以不仅仅是买更多电脑，而是要弄清楚如何在算法上让一切运行得极快，所以其中一些是数学。一些是纯粹的工程，但一些是数学。

  Lex Fridman (02:06:12) Yeah, yeah. And so the help from your brother, like you mentioned NGINX and charting the tables, some of this scaling issue is algorithmic nature. It’s almost like theoretical computer science. So it’s not just about buying more computers, it’s figuring out how to algorithmically make everything work extremely fast, so some of it’s mathematics. Some of it is pure engineering, but some of it is mathematics.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:06:44) 是的。所以在那个阶段，我能做基本的事情。我能理解如何将可扩展性实现到代码库中，如何对数据库中的表进行分片，在哪里使用Memcached而不是直接请求数据库。那在当时还挺容易的，因为那时候还是PHP。

  Pavel Durov (02:06:44) Yeah. So at that stage, I could do the basic stuff. I could understand how I implement scalability into the code base, how I chart my tables in the database, where I include Memcached instead of direct requests to the database. That was quite easy because it was still PHP back in the day.

  (02:07:14) 当我哥哥在2008年左右从德国回来时，我问他，”我们能让它更高效吗？我们能让它超级快，同时让我们需要更少的服务器来维持负载吗？” 他说，”可以，但PHP不够。我将不得不用C和C++重写你数据引擎的大部分。” 我说，”好的，我们干吧。”

  (02:07:14) When my brother got back from Germany somewhere around 2008, I asked him, “Can we make it even more efficient? Can we make it super fast and at the same time so that we would require even fewer servers to maintain the load?” And he said, “Yes, but PHP is not enough. I’ll have to rewrite big part of your data engines in C and C++.” I said, “Okay, let’s do that.”

  (02:07:47) 他邀请了他的一个朋友来帮忙，另一个世界编程竞赛的绝对冠军，连续两次，他们一起构建了第一个定制化的数据引擎，它比仅仅依赖MySQL和Memcached要高效得多，因为首先，它更专业，更底层。

  (02:07:47) He invited a friend of his to help him, another absolute champion in world’s programming contest, twice in a row, and they put together the first customized data engine, which was far more efficient than just relying on MySQL and Memcached because it was, first of all, more specialized, more low-level.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:08:19) 所以他们用C, C++重写了它？

  Lex Fridman (02:08:19) So they rewrote it in C, C++?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:08:21) 一大部分。例如，搜索，广告引擎，因为VK有定向广告，他们构建了那个。他们做的非常高效。最终，私信部分，公共消息部分。在某个时刻，我们意识到线上很少有网站比VK加载更快。

  Pavel Durov (02:08:21) A large chunk of it. For example, the search, the ad engine, because VK had targeted ads, they built that. It was very efficient what they did. Eventually, the private messaging part, the public messages part. At some point, we realized there are very few websites online that load faster than VK.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:08:48) 很好。

  Lex Fridman (02:08:48) Nice.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:08:49) 我记得在2009年，我去了硅谷，第一次见到了马克·扎克伯格和Facebook早期的一些其他核心团队成员。记住，Facebook当时才四五岁。每个人都不断问我，”为什么即使在硅谷这里，VK加载也比Facebook快？你网站上的一切似乎都是瞬间出现的。秘诀是什么？” 这是让他们非常好奇的事情之一。

  Pavel Durov (02:08:49) I remember in 2009, I went to Silicon Valley and I met Mark Zuckerberg the first time and some of the other core team members of early Facebook. Remember, Facebook was just four or five years old. And everybody kept asking me, “How come even here in Silicon Valley, VK loads faster than Facebook? Everything seems to appear instantly on your website. What’s the secret sauce?” That was one of the things that made them very curious

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:09:25) 这一直对你很重要，要有非常低的延迟，确保东西加载快，因为这是Telegram真正出名的地方之一。即使在烂连接上等等，它也能运行得极快。一切都很快。

  Lex Fridman (02:09:25) And that was always important to you, to have very low latency to make sure the thing loads because that’s one of the things Telegram is really known for. Even on crappy connections and all that kind of stuff, it just works extremely fast. Everything is fast.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:09:37) 作为核心技术理念之一，我们优先考虑速度。我们认为人们能注意到差异，即使只是5000万毫秒的差异。这种差异是潜意识的。它也让我们不仅在速度更快、响应更及时方面有优势，而且在基础设施、开支方面也更高效。因为如果你的代码执行得更快，意味着你需要更少的计算资源来运行它。

  Pavel Durov (02:09:37) As one of the core technological ideas, we prioritize speed. We think that people can notice the difference, even if it’s just 50 million millisecond difference. The difference is subconscious. It also allows us not just to be faster and more responsive, but also more efficient when it comes to the infrastructure, the expenses. Because if your code executes faster, it means you need fewer computational resources to run it.

  (02:10:16) 所以让东西更快你不可能输，这就是为什么我们在招聘人员时一直非常谨慎。我只会雇佣我最终确定是最佳选择的人，因为如果你雇佣了一个可能有点分心、缺乏经验的人，你最终可能会在代码库中引入低效，导致数千万美元的损失。想想这个责任，就像如果我们从VK时代跳到今天，Telegram被超过十亿人使用。他们每天打开它几十次。想象一下，如果应用打开时有轻微的延迟，比如半秒的延迟。乘以几十次，再乘以十亿。这是人类无缘无故就损失了几个世纪、几千年的时间，仅仅因为马虎。

  (02:10:16) So there is no way you can lose in making things faster, and that’s why we have always been very careful when hiring people. I would only hire a person if I’m ultimately certain is the best option because if you hire somebody who is maybe a little bit distracted, unexperienced, you may end up with inefficiencies in your code base that results in tens of millions of dollars of losses. And think about the responsibility, like if we jump to today from the VK days, Telegram is used by over a billion people. They open it dozens of times every day. Imagine the app opens with a slight delay, say, half-a-second delay. Multiply by dozens of times by a billion. It’s centuries, millennia lost for humanity without any reason other than just being sloppy.

  雇佣优秀团队

  Hiring a great team

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:11:24) 理解这一点非常重要，也非常明智，实际上，如果你作为一个开发者只是有点粗心，你可能会引入难以追踪的低效，因为你不知道它可以更快。代码不会对你尖叫说，”这个可以快得多。” 所以你必须实际上，作为一个工匠，在编写代码时非常小心，并且总是思考，”这个能更高效地完成吗？” 而且可能只是很小的事情，因为它们都会在整个代码中传播，所以在公司任何地方有一个粗心的开发者都会带来真正的成本，因为他们可能引入那种低效，而所有其他开发者不会知道。他们会以为本来就该那样。

  Lex Fridman (02:11:24) That is so important to understand and so wise that it’s actually, if you’re just a little bit careless as a developer, you can introduce inefficiencies that are going to be very difficult to track down because you don’t know that it can be faster. The code doesn’t scream at you saying, “This could be much faster.” So you have to actually, as a craftsman, be very careful when you’re writing a code and always thinking, “Can this be done much more efficiently?” And it can be tiny things because they all propagate throughout the code, and so there’s a real cost in having a careless developer anywhere in the company because they can introduce that inefficiency and all the other developers won’t know. They’ll just assume it kind of has to be that way.

  (02:12:11) 所以每个构建像Telegram这样的应用任何组件的个体开发者都有真正的责任，要总是问，”好吧，这个能更高效地完成吗？这个能更简单地完成吗？” 而这是编程最美丽的方面之一，艺术形式，对吧？

  (02:12:11) So there’s a real responsibility for every single individual developer that’s building any component of an app like Telegram to just always ask, “Okay, can this be done more efficiently? Can this be done more simply?” And that’s one of the most beautiful aspects, the art forms of programming, right?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:12:32) 哦，是的，因为当你设法发现一种简化事物、让它们更高效的方法时，你会感到难以置信的快乐、自豪和成就感。

  Pavel Durov (02:12:32) Oh, yes, because when you manage to discover a way to simplify things, make them more efficient, you feel incredibly happy and proud and accomplished.

  (02:12:47) 说到你的观点，我能回忆起我职业生涯中的几个例子，解雇一名工程师实际上导致了生产力的提高。假设你有两个安卓工程师构建他们的应用，然后他们就是做不到。他们跟不上功能发布的时间表。你想，”我可能得雇佣第三个，”但然后你注意到其中一个真的很奇怪，落后于进度，有时抱怨，不承担责任。你问，”那么，如果我直接解雇这个人会怎样？” 你解雇了这个人。几周后，你意识到你实际上不需要任何新人，从来就不需要第三个工程师。问题在于这个家伙，他制造的问题比他解决的还多。

  (02:12:47) And to your point, I can recall a few instances in my career where firing an engineer actually resulted to an increase in productivity. Say you have two Android engineers building their app and then they just can’t make it. They’re not keeping up with the pace of the feature release schedule. And you think, “I probably have to hire a third one,” but then you notice that one of them is really weird, falling behind the schedule, complaining some of the time, doesn’t assume responsibility. And you ask, “So what if I just fire this person?” And you fire this person. In a few weeks, you realize you actually don’t need any new, never needed the third engineer. The problem was this guy who created more issues and more problems than he solved.

  (02:13:49) 这太违反直觉了，因为在开发技术项目时，我们倾向于认为你只需要把更多的人扔进某件事，然后事情就会奇迹般地自行解决，仅仅因为更多的人意味着他们现在投入更多注意力。

  (02:13:49) That is so counterintuitive because in developing tech projects, we tend to think that you just throw more people into something and then things get solved miraculously by themselves just because more people means more attention from them now.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:14:12) 这，再次，极其有力。史蒂夫·乔布斯谈论过A级玩家和B级玩家，当你拥有B级玩家，也就是你谈到的那类人，加入团队时，会发生一些事情，他们 somehow 会让每个人都慢下来。他们让每个人失去动力。而且非常违反直觉的是，你基本上，创建优秀团队工作的一部分是移除B级玩家。不仅仅是雇佣更多人，一般来说。是找到”A级玩家”并移除那些拖慢事情的人。

  Lex Fridman (02:14:12) That’s, again, extremely powerful. Steve Jobs talked about A players and B players, and there’s something that happens when you have B players, which is like the folks you’re talking about. Introduced into a team, they can somehow slow everybody down. They demotivate everybody. And it’s very counterintuitive that you basically, part of the work of creating a great team is removing the B players. It’s not just hiring more, generally speaking. It’s finding the “A players” and removing the people that are slowing things down.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:14:48) 哦，是的，因为人们没有意识到的另一件事是，与B级玩家一起工作是多么令人沮丧。每个人都能分辨出对方，他们与之共事的另一个工程师是否真的有能力。如果这个人不舒服，这是非常明显的。他们问错误的问题，他们不断落后。在某个时刻，如果你是一个A级玩家，你会感到这种不满，这种感觉，你无法实现你的全部潜力，完成你真正应该完成的事情，就是因为这个人就在你旁边工作或假装在你旁边工作。

  Pavel Durov (02:14:48) Oh, yes, because the other thing that people don’t realize is how demotivating working with a B player is. Everybody can tell if the other person, the other engineer they’re working with is really competent. And it’s very visible if the person is not comfortable. They’re asking the wrong questions, they keep lagging behind. And at a certain point, if you’re an A player, you get this dissatisfaction, this feeling that you are not able to realize your full potential, accomplish what you’re really meant to accomplish because of this person working next to you or pretending to work next to you.

  (02:15:37) 顺便说一下，在某些情况下，不是因为这个人懒。在某些情况下，只是心智、智力能力不够。这不是关于经验。大多数情况下是关于天生能力和毅力。在90%的情况下，只是无法长时间专注于一项任务。不是每个人都有这种能力。所以对于有这种能力的人来说，与一个分心、无法深入他们负责的项目的人一起工作是一种侮辱。

  (02:15:37) And by the way, in some cases, it’s not because the person is lazy. In some cases it’s just the mental, the intellectual ability is not there. It’s not about experience. Most often it’s about natural ability and persistence. In 90% of cases, it’s just the inability to focus on one task for an extended period of time. Not everybody has this ability. So for people who do have this ability, it’s an insult to work alongside someone who is distracted and cannot go deep in the projects that they’re responsible for.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:16:27) 关于这个小插曲，你的招聘流程是怎样的？你已经展示并谈到你经常使用竞赛，编码竞赛来招聘，以找到优秀的工程师。这背后的想法是什么？

  Lex Fridman (02:16:27) On this small tangent, what’s your hiring process? So you’ve shown and you’ve talked about how you use competitions often, coding competitions to hire to find great engineers. What’s your thinking behind that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:16:40) 嗯，这符合我的整体理念。我认为竞争带来进步。如果你想为某些你心中有数的特定任务选择最合格的人建立一个理想的流程，有什么能比竞赛更好呢？一个编码比赛，每个想加入你公司做工程师，或者只是想获得一些奖金或认可的人，都可以展示他们的技能，然后我们只选择最好的。或者如果我们不确定，因为数据不足而无法雇佣某人，我们就用另一个任务重复比赛，获取更多数据，获取更多获胜者，然后再重复。

  Pavel Durov (02:16:40) Well, it’s in line with my overall philosophy. I think competition leads to progress. If you want to create an ideal process for selecting the most qualified people for certain specific tasks you have in mind, what can be better than a competition? A coding contest where everybody who wants to join your company as an engineer or just wants to get some prize money or validation can demonstrate their skills, and then we just select the best. Or if we are not certain because there’s not enough data to hire somebody, we just repeat the contest with another task, get more data, get more winners, then repeat again.

  (02:17:31) 在某个时刻，你意识到，”哦，实际上这个家伙从16岁或14岁起就参加了我们的10次比赛。现在他20或21岁了。他在其中八次比赛中获胜。他似乎在JavaScript、安卓、Java以及C++方面真的很棒。为什么不雇佣这个人呢？” 这里有一致性。

  (02:17:31) And at some point, you realize, “Oh, actually this guy has competed in 10 of our contests since he was 16 years old or 14 years old. Now he’s 20 or 21. He won in eight of these competitions. He seems to be really good in JavaScript on Android, Java, and also C++. Why not hire this person?” There’s some consistency there.

  (02:18:04) 而且很多这样的人，他们以前从未在大公司工作过，这是无价的，因为在大公司，人们倾向于推卸责任。他们有这种共同责任，以至于没有人完全理解谁能为一个项目负责，谁该为一个项目受责备。在Telegram内部，这是非常清楚的，而这些比赛是最接近人们在Telegram工作时会有的体验。

  (02:18:04) And a lot of these people, they have never worked in a big company before, which is priceless because in a big company, people tend to shift responsibility. They have this shared responsibility wherein nobody fully understands who can take credit for a project, who can take blame for a project. Inside Telegram, it’s pretty clear, and these competitions are the closest experience to what people will have when working at Telegram.

  (02:18:46) 例如，我们想在Telegram安卓版本的资料页面上实现某个非常棘手的动画和重新设计。安卓应用，它是一个开源应用。任何人都可以获取它的代码并摆弄它。因此，我们不仅会选择最好的人并雇佣这个人，我们还会选择问题的最佳解决方案，因为我们不会建议参赛者解决琐碎的问题。这是有价值的东西。它在开发方面为我们节省了大量时间。

  (02:18:46) So for example, we want to implement certain very tricky animation and redesign to the profile page of the Telegram’s Android version. And the Android app, it’s an open-source app. Anybody can take its code and play with it. So as a result, we would not just select the best person and hire this person, we would also select the best solution to the problem because we would not suggest the contestants to solve trivial problems. It’s something that’s valuable. It saves a lot of time for us in terms of development.

  (02:19:24) 而且因为我一直拥有这些大型社交媒体平台，我可以用它们来推广这些比赛， somehow VK和Telegram在工程师、设计师和其他技术人员中都非常受欢迎，我从来没有问题推广这些比赛并找到合适的人。对于你公司的员工来说，有什么能比一个一直是其用户的人更好呢？这个人没有使用Telegram的先验经验。

  (02:19:24) And because I always had this large social media platforms, which I could use to promote these competitions, somehow both VK and Telegram were very popular among engineers and designers, other tech people, I had no issue to promote this contest and find the right people ever. And what can be better than, for an employee of your company, somebody who has been a user of it? This person has no prior experience of using Telegram.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:20:00) 这个人没有使用Telegram的先验经验。他们的理解会非常有限。我为什么要甚至尝试从LinkedIn雇佣某个在谷歌和其他公司工作过的人，习惯于无功受禄，习惯于推卸责任和陷入无休止的会议，并且对Telegram代表什么理解有限？如果你仔细想想，这简直是疯了。

  Pavel Durov (02:20:00) This person has no prior experience of using Telegram. Their understanding would be very limited. Why would I even try to hire somebody from LinkedIn who worked at Google and other companies, is used to receiving salary for nothing, is used to shift responsibility and being stuck in endless meetings and have very limited understanding of what Telegram stands for? It’s just crazy if you think about it.

  Telegram 工程与设计

  Telegram engineering & design

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:20:40) 正因为如此，你在招聘上极其挑剔且缓慢。人们必须真正赢得他们的位置，因此，我有机会参加了一次团队会议，人们讨论正在开发的不同功能、不同的想法，其中一些处于最前沿，所以你可以幕后看到，如何能够有如此快的创意生成速度。你产生想法，实现原型，然后最终它成为产品中的一个实际功能。这就是为什么你有这种半有趣、半不可思议的事实，与WhatsApp和Signal相比，你在许多其他功能上领先。许多我们现在认为理所当然的功能，许多我们熟知和喜爱的功能，比如自动删除计时器。这比其他任何通讯应用早了七年。消息编辑、回复。这些都是显而易见的东西，我甚至忘了其中一些它们以前从未有过。我认为自动删除计时器是一个真正绝妙的想法。

  Lex Fridman (02:20:40) Because of that, you’re extremely selective and slow in hiring. People really have to earn their spot and then as a result, I got a chance to sit in one of the team meetings where people discuss the different features that are being developed, the different ideas, some of which are at the very cutting edge and so you get to see behind the scenes how it’s possible to have such a fast rate of idea generation. You generate the idea, you implement the prototype and then eventually it becomes an actual feature in the product. That’s why you have this kind of half hilarious, half incredible fact that for many, as compared to WhatsApp and Signal, you’ve led the way on many other features. Many of the features we take for granted now, many of which we know and love, like the auto-delete timer. That was seven years ahead of any other messenger. Message editing, replies. These are all obvious things I’ve even forgotten for some of them that they were never part. I think auto-delete timer is a really brilliant idea.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:21:54) 我们在2013年在秘密聊天中实现了它。有趣的是，当其他应用开始复制它时，WhatsApp在七年之后，然后是Signal和其他一些这类应用，他们最初甚至复制了完全相同的时间戳。例如，如果我们有一秒、三秒和五秒，他们也会有一秒、三秒和五秒。他们试图不改变它，因为他们不确定这个功能背后的魔力是什么。具有讽刺意味的是，许多这样的事情都会发生。例如，当我们设计如何回复一条消息，你有一个小片段显示你正在回复这条消息，现在你正在输入你的回复，然后在消息本身中有一个小片段，如果你点击它，会高亮显示你正在回复的原始消息。看起来很明显，但当时我们实施了一些特定的设计决策，我们得到了左边的垂直线和所有其他这些小东西，这些都是完全随意的，你可以用不同的方式做，但 somehow 整个行业最终都复制了完全相同的解决方案。现在无论你去看WhatsApp、Instagram Direct、Facebook Messenger、Signal，不管哪个，你都会看到完全相同或非常相似的体验，因为没有人真的想冒风险去创新。如果某个东西有效，为什么不直接复制呢？

  Pavel Durov (02:21:54) We implemented in 2013 in the Secret Chats. Funny thing about it is then when other apps started to copy it, WhatsApp seven years after and then Signal and some other of these apps, they initially even copied the exact timestamps. For example, if we had one, three and five seconds, they would also have one, three and five seconds. They tried not to change it because they were not sure what was the magic sauce behind the feature. Ironically, it happens with many of these things. For example, when we design how you reply to a message and you have a small snippet showing that you’re replying to this message and now you’re typing your response, then there is a small snippet into the message itself that if you tap on it highlights the original message you’re replying to. Seems pretty obvious, but there are certain design decisions that we were implementing at the time and we got this vertical line on the left and all these other small things that are completely arbitrary, you can do it in a different way, but somehow the entire industry ended up copying exactly that solution. Now whenever you go to WhatsApp, Instagram direct, Facebook Messenger, Signal, it doesn’t matter, you would see exactly the same or pretty much similar experience because nobody really wants to take the risk and innovate. If something works, why not just copy it?

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:23:32) 我们应该说它做得非常好。垂直线和高亮显示，我意思是所有这些都像是微小的天才之笔。以某种方式高亮文本，从设计角度使其非常清晰，这部分是之前写的，下面的东西是你的回复。不同格式、文本之间的区别。听着，我知道排版是一门艺术形式。Telegram内部有很多互动的、图形的艺术元素，都必须极其协调地配合在一起。就像你向我指出的那个让我大吃一惊的东西，也就是Telegram的背景渐变，它会变化。它真的很好地适应了气泡，聊天气泡，然后渐变之上有图形元素，所有这些都相互作用在一起。所有这些都必须很好地工作，同时不牺牲清晰度。一切都非常直观。这很难创造。那是艺术。除此之外，还超级快。

  Lex Fridman (02:23:32) We should say that it’s done extremely well. The vertical line and the highlighting, I mean all of these are tiny little strokes of genius. By highlighting the text in a certain way that from a design perspective makes it very clear that this part was written before and thing under it is your reply. The distinction between the different formatting, the text. Listen, I know how much typography is an art form. There’s a lot of interacting, graphic artistic elements inside Telegram that all have to play together extremely well. Like you pointed out to me, this thing that just blew my mind, which is the background gradient of Telegram, shifts. It changes and it adjusts really nicely to the bubbles, the chat bubbles and then there’s graphic elements on top of the gradient that all interplay together. All of that has to work really nicely without sacrificing clarity. Everything’s just intuitive. That’s very difficult to create. That is art. On top of that, super fast.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:24:40) 那是最难的部分。让它看起来让设计师喜欢是一回事。真正的挑战是让它看起来让设计师喜欢，同时让它能在尽可能弱的设备上运行。你能想象到的最老、最便宜的智能手机。如果你拿每个Telegram聊天背景上的动态渐变来说，这是大多数人没有注意到的东西，但他们能感觉到。

  Pavel Durov (02:24:40) That’s the hardest part. To make it look so that designers love it is one thing. The real challenge is make it look the way the designers love it and make it work on the weakest device as possible. Oldest, cheapest, smartphones you can imagine. If you take the moving gradient on the background of every Telegram chat, this is something most people don’t notice, but they can feel it.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:25:13) 他们潜意识里注意到它或类似的东西。有一种愉悦的感觉。当你阅读聊天时有一种愉悦的感觉，这就是设计对此的贡献。我认为渐变确实如此。我真的很喜欢Telegram的这一点，渐变。不是你描述的技术细节，而是它的感觉，然后创造那种感觉的技术方面是不可思议的。我可能能想出各种渲染那个渐变的算法，但那些算法会超级低效，所以高效地做到那一点就像…

  Lex Fridman (02:25:13) They notice it subconsciously or something like that. There is a pleasant feeling. There’s a feeling, there’s a pleasant feeling when you’re reading a chat and that’s where the design contributes to that. I think a gradient really does. I really love that about Telegram, the gradient. Not the technical thing you described, but the feeling of it and then the technical aspect of creating that feeling is incredible. I could probably come up with all kinds of algorithms of rendering that gradient that’s going to be super inefficient and so doing that efficiently is like…

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:25:46) 或者高效，但不够漂亮，因为即使是做像渐变这样简单的事情，也可能导致渐变中出现明显的线条，让人立刻就能说，哦不，这不是对的。你必须在其中引入一定的随机性，然后你有了渐变，但这还不够。它太普通了。你想有一个特定的图案作为覆盖层，但它必须足够简单，不会让你从内容上分心，但又必须足够有趣，以创造对整个应用的良好感觉。另一个问题，你想在这种图案中包含什么样的对象，以及这种图案将如何工作？它会基于像素吗？还是会基于矢量？它会基于矢量以便无限缩放和高质量吗？我认为对于默认图案和默认背景，它基于四种颜色，不是基于两种颜色的渐变，是四种颜色，它们不断变化。我可能查看了几千种它的变体，因为这是一个非常重要的决定。这是默认背景。当然你实际上可以改变它。你可以为你自己的那个设置四种颜色。你可以改变它。

  Pavel Durov (02:25:46) Or efficient, but not too beautiful because even doing something so trivial as a gradient can result in noticeable lines in the gradient that a person can instantly say, oh no, it’s not the right thing. You can have to introduce certain randomness there and then you have the gradient, but it’s not enough. It’s too plain. You want to have certain pattern as an overlay, but it should be simple enough not to distract you from the content, but it has to be entertaining enough to create a good feeling about the whole app. Another question, what kind of objects you want to include in this pattern and how this pattern would work? Will it be based on pixels or would it be vector-based and would it be vector-based so they will be infinitely scalable and high quality? I think for the default pattern and the default background, which is based on four colors, it’s not a gradient based on two colors, it’s four colors and they’re constantly shifting. I probably look through several thousand variations of that because this is such an important decision to make. It’s the default background. Of course you can change it actually. You can set up your own four colors for that. You can change it.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:27:09) 不会吧。真的吗？

  Lex Fridman (02:27:09) No way. Really?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:27:10) 是的，你可以做到，而且你想依赖于人类思维某些根深蒂固的生物学特性。你想使用哪种颜色？会是蓝色吗？会是黄色吗？会是绿色吗？每种颜色在我们大脑中有不同的含义，你想在那里放什么样的对象？来自我们童年的东西？来自自然的东西，还是能创造不同情绪的东西？这只是应用的一个细节。还有很多细节。当你发送一条消息时，你刚打完一条消息，然后你点击发送，然后消息逐渐出现在聊天中。这是怎么发生的？你希望输入字段慢慢变形为实际的消息。

  Pavel Durov (02:27:10) Yes, you can do it and you want to rely on certain deeply hard-coded biological properties of the human mind. Which color do you want to use? Is it going to be blue? Is it going to be yellow? Is it going to be green? Each color has a different meaning in our brain and what kind of objects you want to put there? Something from our childhood? Something from nature or something that can create a different kind of mood? This is just one detail of the app. There are many details. When you send a message, you are done typing a message and you just then tap send and then the message gradually appears in the chat. How does it happen? You want the input field to slowly morph into the actual message.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:28:03) 变成消息。是的。

  Lex Fridman (02:28:03) To the message. Yeah.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:28:04) 你希望这能完成，无论消息内容如何，因为有时宽度会不同。有时它会包含媒体或链接预览或其他会改变消息气泡的东西。你检查无数不同的场景，确保每一个都能很好地工作，即使这条消息包含4000个字符。然后你查看所有平台，iOS、安卓和所有旧设备，所有种类的过时操作系统和硬件，然后你交叉检查这两者，因为你可能拥有这台非常糟糕的旧手机，但使用最新的操作系统版本，那么你怎么办？你在那里会遇到什么样的错误？然后当然，由于Telegram也可以在平板电脑上运行，我们的iOS版本可以在iPad上运行，我非常喜欢iPad，你必须理解一切都可以非常大。它可能消耗你屏幕上很多空间，然后它会触发使用更多的计算资源来渲染它。这里面有很多细微差别，但只要你痴迷于每一个小细节，至少每一个真正重要的细节，你就能达到一种用户体验……如果你真的习惯了Telegram，如果你至少是几周的常规用户，回到任何其他消息应用都会感觉像是严重的降级。

  Pavel Durov (02:28:04) You want this to be done regardless of the contents of the message because sometimes the width would be different. Sometimes it’ll be containing media or link preview or other stuff that will change the message bubble. You go through countless different scenarios and make sure every one of them works great, even if this message contains 4,000 characters. Then you look at all the platforms, iOS, Android and all the old devices, all kinds of outdated operating systems and the hardware and you cross the two because you can have this really bad old phone, but using the newest operating system version, so what do you do? What kind of bugs you get there? Then of course, since Telegram works on tablets as well and our iOS version works on an iPad, which I love a lot, you have to understand that everything can be really big. It can consume a lot of space on your screen and then it’ll trigger using more computational resources to render it. There are a lot of nuances to it, but as long as you obsess over every small detail, at least every detail that really counts, you can get to a user experience… If you’re really used to Telegram, if you’ve been a regular user for at least a few weeks, going back to any other messaging app feels like a serious downgrade.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:29:53) 是的，我的意思是，有那么多真正神奇的时刻。例如，消息删除时蒸发的方式，那是一种非常愉悦的体验。

  Lex Fridman (02:29:53) Yeah, I mean there’s so many really magical moments. For example, the way a message evaporates when you delete it, that is a really pleasant experience.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:30:05) 哦是的。做出来可真难啊，尤其是在安卓上。就是这个灭霸响指效果，对吧？消息被分解成数万颗粒子，它们像风中的尘埃一样散去。看起来很棒，但做起来太难了。

  Pavel Durov (02:30:05) Oh yeah. Boy was it hard to make, particularly on Android. This is this Thanos snap effect, right? The message is broken into tens of thousands particles, which go away like dust in the wind. It looks great, but it was so hard to make.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:30:28) 可能是我最喜欢的GUI图形事物之一。它就是艺术。纯粹的艺术。太不可思议了。很高兴听到它确实是经过反复推敲和深思熟虑的。做得非常出色。

  Lex Fridman (02:30:28) Probably one of my favorite GUI graphical things. It’s just art. It’s pure art. It’s incredible. It’s good to hear that it has been really fought over and thought through. It’s extremely well done.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:30:45) 不，如果你不深入其中，你就无法实现它。然后你不想用所有这些额外的动画分散人们与他们沟通的注意力。你希望它们在某种程度上是隐形的。

  Pavel Durov (02:30:45) No, you can’t pull it off if you’re not going deep in this. Then you don’t want to distract people from their communication with all this additional animation. You want them to be invisible in a way.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:31:06) 它们创造感觉，但不制造分心。

  Lex Fridman (02:31:06) They create the feeling, but they don’t create distraction.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:31:09) 是的。为了做到这一点，你必须克服甚至更多的挑战。例如，你提到了这个删除效果，消息蒸发。如果你先做动画，先显示动画，然后被删除消息之前的和之后的消息彼此靠近移动，那么感觉就不对。感觉太长了，太突兀了。你想做的是让消息消失，同时它周围的消息彼此靠近以填补产生的空隙。然后你想象这涉及到什么。重绘整个屏幕。在这个非常复杂的动画之上，你必须考虑诸如它之前和之后有哪些消息之类的事情。这只会增加复杂性。

  Pavel Durov (02:31:09) Yes. In order to do that, you have to overcome even more challenges. For example, you mentioned this deletion effect, message evaporates. If you do the animation, if you show the animation first and then the message that is preceding the deleted message that is going after the just deleted message move closer to each other, then it doesn’t feel right. It feels too long, too imposing. What you want to do is you want the message disappear while the messages around it go closer to each other to fill the resulting gap. Then you imagine what it involves. Redrawing the entire screen. On top of this very complicated animation, you have to think about things like which kind of messages were there before it after. It just adds to complexity.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:32:14) 再次是在所有种类的设备上，所有种类的操作系统，所有种类的平板电脑、手机、桌面，所有种类的屏幕尺寸上。

  Lex Fridman (02:32:14) Once again on all kinds of devices, all kinds of operating systems, all kinds of tablets, phones, desktop, all of that.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:32:21) 一旦你完成了它，它会给你这种巨大的自豪感，因为没有人这样做。没有人真正在乎。在某种程度上，也许他们不在乎是对的。也许没有人注意到这一点，但当这样的事情被忽视时，总会让人觉得有些不对劲，因为我明白，每天，全世界有数千万人在删除消息。他们得到的是什么样的体验？这是一种也许甚至能在潜意识里激励他们、让他们的心歌唱哪怕一点点的体验吗？让他们充满喜悦吗？让他们的心情明亮起来，哪怕只有0.001%？这是不是只是最基本的东西，而我认为，如果我们能给人们的生活带来一些价值，即使是通过这些细微的细节，我们也绝对必须把时间投入其中。

  Pavel Durov (02:32:21) Once you accomplish it, it gives you this immense sense of pride because nobody is doing this. Nobody really cares. In a way maybe they’re right not to care. Maybe nobody notices this, but there is something about it that feels wrong when such things are neglected because I understand that every day, tens of millions of people around the world are deleting messages. What kind of experience they get? Is this an experience that maybe even subconsciously inspires them and makes their hearts sing even a little bit? Fills them with joy? Lightens up their mood, even a little bit by 0.001%? Is it something that is just basic and I think if we can bring some value in people’s lives, even through this subtle details, we have to definitely invest our time in it.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:33:32) 一些喜悦。不单单是像生产力那样的价值，而是喜悦。我认为史蒂夫·乔布斯、乔尼·艾夫谈到过这一点，他们会在所有东西的设计上投入如此多的热爱和努力，包括在早期个人电脑中不可见的东西，因为他们相信，用户会通过某种潜移默化的方式，感受到设计师投入其中的热爱。你完全正确。这不关乎删除消息。当我看到那个蒸发动画时，我感觉到一丝喜悦。就是感觉很好。我因此更快乐了。我感受到了那份努力，而且我认为有十亿用户感受到了。

  Lex Fridman (02:33:32) Some joy. Not just sort of value like productivity, but joy. I think Steve Jobs, Jony Ive talked about this, they would put so much love and effort in the design of everything, including things that weren’t visible in the initial pc, personal computers because they believe that you somehow through osmosis, the users will be able to feel the love that the designers put into the thing and you’re absolutely right. It’s not about deleting messages. I feel a little inkling of joy when I see that evaporation animation. It’s just nice. I’m happier because of it. I feel that effort and I think a billion users feel that.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:34:21) 人们喜欢别人在乎的感觉。

  Pavel Durov (02:34:21) People like when other people care.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:34:23) 是的，是的，是的。 exactly 就是这样。当然，还有更吸引人的东西，比如所有的表情符号、贴纸、礼物，其中很多就像小小的艺术品。

  Lex Fridman (02:34:23) Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s exactly what it is. Of course there’s the more sexy things like all the emojis and the stickers, the gifts, many of those are just, they’re a little like art pieces.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:34:39) 这又是艺术与技术的交汇点，因为你看看贴纸，Telegram 在大多数其他应用之前很久就推出了——

  Pavel Durov (02:34:39) That’s again an intersection of art and technology because you look at the stickers, which Telegram launched way before most of this other apps-

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:34:48) 领先了三年零八个月。

  Lex Fridman (02:34:48) Three years and eight months ahead.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:34:50) …领先于 WhatsApp，是的。WhatsApp 最终在三年零八个月后推出的贴纸，其第一个版本并不太好，因为他们只是用了普通的 GIF 或 WebM 视频，这些不是基于矢量图形的。我们做的是矢量动画。这些贴纸中的每一个只有几KB大小，有时最大可能 20、30 KB，但它有 180 帧。我们能够在所有设备上以每秒60帧的速度运行它们。这也非常具有挑战性。这是一项具有挑战性的事情。我们为了让它能工作费尽了心思。在我们之前，甚至没有人尝试过做类似的事情，因为它极其困难。结果就是，你得到了这些流畅的动画。你获得了这种非常棒的用户体验。有人给你发送一个贴纸，你不需要等待它加载，因为它非常轻量，并且立即开始移动。

  Pavel Durov (02:34:50) … ahead of WhatsApp, yes. The stickers that WhatsApp ended up launching three years and eight months after were not the first version was not really good because they just did regular GIFs or WebM videos, which were not based on vector graphics. What we did is vector animations. Each of these stickers is only several kilobytes, sometimes maybe maximum 20, 30 kilobytes in size, but it says 180 frames. We were able to run them at 60 frames per second on all devices. It’s also very challenging. It was a challenging thing to do. We had so much headache trying to make it work. Nobody even tried to do anything like this before us because it’s crazily difficult. As a result, you have these fluid animations. You have this really nice user experience. Somebody sends you a sticker, you don’t have to wait for it to load because it’s so lightweight and it starts moving instantly.

  (02:35:58) 然后当然，这不仅仅是工程问题。你必须找到能够使用矢量图形创建贴纸的设计师，这意味着它们是基于由公式描述的曲线，而不仅仅是作为带有像素的照片创建的。你从哪里找到这些人？ again，我们举办了比赛，但组建一个我称之为艺术家/工程师的团队来做这样的事情并不容易。这是一种独特的艺术形式，这使我们能够在贴纸领域进行一场革命，然后在动画表情符号领域进行另一场革命，你可以将自定义动画表情符号添加到消息中。我认为没有人这样做过。我认为 Telegram 仍然是唯一允许用户这样做的，因为你可以在一条消息中包含100个动画表情符号，它们会被动画化，会动起来，而你的设备不会崩溃。这可能是不必要的和疯狂的，但我们认为，在艺术与工程的这个交汇处，真正的品质被创造出来。

  (02:35:58) Then of course, it’s not just engineering. You have to find designers that are able to create the stickers using vector graphics, which means they’re based on curves described by formulas, not just created as photographs with pixels. Where do you find these people? Again, we did competitions, but was not easy to assemble a team of artists/engineers I would say, that are able to do something like this. This is a unique form of art and this allowed us to do a revolution in stickers and then another revolution in animated emoji that you can add into messages, custom animated emoji. I don’t think anybody did that. I think Telegram is still the only one allowing users to do that because you can include 100 of animated emoji in a message and they will be animated and it’ll be moving and your device won’t crash. It’s probably unnecessary and crazy, but we think somewhere in this intersection of art and engineering, true quality is created.

  (02:37:14) 然后当然，最近我们扩展到了我们称之为 Telegram Gifts 的东西，它们本质上是基于区块链的收藏品，你可以在你的 Telegram 个人资料上展示它们，使它们具有社交相关性，但你也可以使用它们来祝贺你的朋友和亲人的生日及其他节日，这受到了极大的欢迎。

  (02:37:14) Then of course, more recently we expanded into what we call Telegram Gifts, which are essentially blockchain-based collectibles that you can demonstrate on your Telegram profile so that they get social relevance, but you can also use them to congratulate your friends and close ones with their birthdays and other holidays and that was received extremely well.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:37:41) 是的，它们可以持有价值，可以增值，你可以在那方面交易它们，但对我来说，仍然是矢量图形，而且它不是简单的图形，它是极其复杂的图形。矢量使其非常高效，但它也允许你创造，也许激励艺术家，使他们能够，激励他们，去创造超级详细复杂的元素。然后最终的结果，你会认为这无关紧要，但最终结果有很多事情在进行，它允许你在任意设备上缩放。现在它就像这个小……通常过去的 GIF，以及现在仍然以 meme 形式存在的，都是低分辨率的，所以人们通常不会在其中加入细节和复杂的艺术，但在这里，使用矢量图形，就像有百万件事情在同时进行。它允许你玩转不同的动画。就像你向我展示的那个功能，你发送并在发送按钮上按住一段时间，这样你就可以与你发送消息的人分享你编码的这个动画。当他们阅读消息时，有很多事情在发生。

  Lex Fridman (02:37:41) Yeah, they can hold value, they can increase in value, you could trade them in that aspect, but to me still, vector graphics and it’s not just simple graphics, it’s incredibly intricate graphics. The vector makes it very efficient, but it also allows you to create, maybe incentivizes the artist, enables them, incentivizes them, to create super detailed intricate elements. Then the final result, you would think it wouldn’t matter, but the final result has a lot of stuff going on and it allows you to scale on arbitrary devices. Now it’s like this little… Usually GIFs from back in the day and still in meme form, are low resolution and so usually people don’t put details and intricate art into it, but here with vector graphics it’s like a million things going on. It allows you to play with different animations. Like you showed me this thing where you send and you hold for a while on the send button and so you can share with the person you send a message to this animation that you’ve encoded. There’s a bunch of stuff going on when they read the message.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:38:59) 是的，我们有很多这样的功能，我们利用这种艺术让人们表达自己，而大多数人甚至不知道这些功能。

  Pavel Durov (02:38:59) Yes, we have a lot of features like that when we use this art to allow people to express themselves and most people don’t even know about these features.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:39:10) 我以前不知道。那很酷。那很酷。

  Lex Fridman (02:39:10) I didn’t know about it. That was cool. That was cool.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:39:12) 同一技术的另一个应用是 Telegram 上的反应，因为我们设定了一个目标，确保人们仅仅在给你发送一个赞时也能感受到喜悦。像仅仅给一条消息点赞这样微不足道的动作，也应该是一个你想要一遍又一遍地重复执行的动作。

  Pavel Durov (02:39:12) The other application of the same technology is reactions on Telegram because we made it a goal to make sure that people feel joy when they just send you a like. Something so trivial as just adding a like to a message should be an action that you want to perform again and again and again.

  加密

  Encryption

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:39:43) 另一个功能，在更严肃的方面，是端到端加密。你在这方面引领了行业。它提前一年零三个月推出。你能谈谈你为什么决定添加端到端加密，以及你最初是如何开发加密算法的吗？你背后的想法是什么？

  Lex Fridman (02:39:43) Another feature, on the more serious side, is end-to-end encryption. You led the industry in that. It was launched one year and three months ahead. Can you speak to why you decided to add end-to-end encryption and how you developed the encryption algorithm in the beginning? What was your thinking behind that?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:40:03) 在2013年我们推出 Telegram 时，我们意识到了爱德华·斯诺登揭露的严重的隐私问题。我们想，是的，我们正在以一种已经极其安全的方式设计这个产品，但我们想确保甚至连我们自己都无法访问用户消息。我们非常清楚地理解，一群出生在俄罗斯的人不一定能激发信任。这就是为什么我们让 Telegram 开源，所以我们所有的应用自2013年起就在 GitHub 上可用，然后我们在”秘密聊天”中添加了端到端加密，WhatsApp 在几年后复制了这一点。他们提前一年零三个月才开始测试它。我认为他们在2016年推出了这个功能，那是在我们之后三年，我认为行业其他公司不得不这样做的唯一原因是因为我们设定了标准。

  Pavel Durov (02:40:03) At 2013 when we were launching Telegram, we were aware of the serious issue with privacy that Edward Snowden made very clear. We thought, yes, we’re designing this product in a way that is already extremely secure, but we want to make sure that not even we can access user messages. We understood very clearly that a bunch of people who were born in Russia don’t necessarily inspire trust. That’s why we made Telegram open source, so all our apps have been available on GitHub since 2013 and then we added end-to-end encryption in our Secret Chats, which WhatsApp copied a few years after. One year and three months ahead they just started to test it. They rolled this out I think 2016, which is three years after us and the only reason I think the rest of the industry had to do it is because we set the standard.

  (02:41:23) 这在当时极其重要，同时我们也意识到了端到端加密的某些局限性。在这种设计、这种架构内，你无法支持具有一致持久聊天记录的非常大的聊天社区。你无法支持庞大的一对多频道。你在维护接收大量消息的机器人时会遇到问题。多设备支持变得棘手。人们最终会丢失他们分享的一些文件。我们也看到了很多问题，最终我们有了这种混合体验，根据你的使用场景和需求，你可以选择你想要拥有的加密级别。

  (02:41:23) It was incredibly important back in the day and at the same time we realized certain limitations of end-to-end encryption. Within that design, that architecture, you can’t support very large chat communities with consistent persistent chat histories. You can’t support huge one-to-many channels. You’d have issues with maintaining bots that have lots of incoming messages. Multiple device support becomes tricky. People will end up losing some of the documents they share. We also saw a lot of issues and we ended up having this sort of hybrid experience where depending on your use case and your requirements, you can choose the level of encryption that we want to have.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:42:27) 这就是为什么你选择让端到端加密成为可选功能。你所描述的那个权衡是在于，对于那些真正关心特定消息、对这些消息有极端隐私需求的人，和可用性之间，比如能够跨多个设备同步，拥有20万人的群组。所有这些功能，生活质量类的功能，在它们和端到端加密之间存在权衡。你倾向于让用户在需要超级安全的情况下启用端到端加密。

  Lex Fridman (02:42:27) That’s why you chose to go opt-in for end-to-end encryption. The trade off there that you are describing is between for people who really care about specific messages, extreme privacy on those messages and usability, like being able to sync across multiple devices, having groups that are 200,000 people. All of those features, quality of life features, there’s a trade-off between those and end-to-end encryption. You lean towards letting users enable end-to-end encryption for cases when they want to be super secure.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:43:04) 是的。秘密聊天不仅仅是端到端加密。它们有一些限制，这些限制既是特性也是缺陷。例如，你不能对它们进行截图。你不能从它们那里转发任何文件、任何消息，当你在试图完成一些工作，只是在项目上与你的团队沟通时，这不一定是您需要的。我们非常清楚地认识到，这里有不同的需求，如果你试图将两者结合在一种聊天类型中，你最终会失去很多实用性。我们在 Telegram，我们不使用任何协作工具进行团队合作。我们使用 Telegram 来构建 Telegram。当我们试图切换到秘密聊天，分享大文件并试图完成工作时，我们立刻感觉到，它根本不适合这样做。同时，如果你真的多疑，你认为，我不想被截图，我不想有任何泄露，我甚至不信任 Telegram，我只信任代码。那么秘密聊天是最好的选择。我相信这是当今最安全的通信方式。

  Pavel Durov (02:43:04) Yes. Secret Chats are not just end-to-end encrypted. There are certain limitations that are both a feature and a bug. For example, you can’t screenshot them. You can’t forward any document, any message from them, which is not necessarily something you need when you are trying to get some work done and you are just communicating with your team on a project. It became very clear to us that there are different needs here and if you try to combine both in one type of chat, you will end up losing a lot of utility. We at Telegram, we don’t use any collaboration tool for teamwork. We use Telegram to build Telegram. We felt instantly when we were trying to switch to say Secret Chats, to share large documents and tried to get work done, it was just not adapted for it. At the same time, if you were really paranoid, you think, I don’t want to be screenshotted, I don’t want to have any leaks, I don’t even trust Telegram, I only trust code. Secret Chats are the best option. I believe is the most secure means of communication today.

  开源

  Open source

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:44:36) 我们应该说明，这方面还有很多其他重要的方面。例如，Telegram 是唯一一个为 Android 和 iOS 都提供开源可重现构建的应用。为什么这很重要？

  Lex Fridman (02:44:36) We should say that there’s a lot of other aspects to this that are important. For example, Telegram is the only app that has open source reproducible builds for both Android and iOS. Why is this important?

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:44:49) 你需要可重现的构建来验证应用确实做了它声称的事情，确实以其网站上描述的方式加密数据。为此，你需要让你的应用开源，以便任何研究人员都可以查看它。Telegram 自2013年起就是开源的。像 WhatsApp 这样的应用从未开源，所以你并不真正知道它们在做什么，以及它们究竟是如何加密你的消息的。但这里重要的是要理解，你从应用商店下载的应用版本是否与你在 GitHub 上可以查看的源代码完全对应。为此你需要可重现的构建。

  Pavel Durov (02:44:49) You need reproducible builds in order to verify that the app really does what it claims, really encrypts data in a way that it is described on its website. For that you need to make your apps open source for any researchers to have a look at it. Telegram has been open source since 2013. Apps like WhatsApp have never been open source, so you don’t really know what they’re doing and how exactly they encrypt your messages. What’s important here though is to understand whether the version of the app that you download from the app store corresponds exactly to the source code that you can view on GitHub. For that you need reproducible builds.

  (02:45:48) 正如你所说，Telegram 是唯一这样做的流行消息应用。我们允许人们在 Android 和 iOS 上确保 GitHub 上的 Telegram 源代码和你实际使用的应用是同一个应用。我认为这极其重要，不仅仅是为了赢得人们的信任，也是为了在这方面保持透明和开放。当我声称 Telegram 的秘密聊天是最安全的通信方式时，我是认真的，因为我还没有看到任何事实反驳这一说法，至少在流行消息应用中。你说 WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage。它们都没有在 iOS 和 Android 上同时具备可重现的构建。它们中至少没有一家在确保你用于加密数据的算法不是由某个机构交给你的、用于创建蜜罐的算法方面投入同样多的努力，至少据我对竞争对手的了解是这样。我不认为他们经历了同样的过程。

  (02:45:48) As you said, Telegram is the only popular messaging app that does that. We allow people to make sure both on Android and the iOS that the source code of Telegram on GitHub and the app you are actually using is the same app. I think it’s incredibly important, not just to gain people’s trust, but just to stay transparent and open about it. When I make this claim that Telegram’s Secret Chats are the most secure way of communicating, I really mean it because I haven’t seen any fact contradicting this claim, at least among the popular messaging app. You say WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage. None of them have reproducible builds on both iOS and Android. None of them had at least at the same level put so much effort into making sure that the algorithms that you use in order to encrypt data are not algorithms that have been handed to you by some agency in order to create a honey pot, at least from what I know about our competitors. I don’t think they went through the same process.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:47:23) 我们应该说明，Telegram 中整个软件栈都是在 Telegram 内部从头开始完成的。我们谈论的不仅仅是加密，还有服务器上运行的一切。服务器是构建出来的，硬件和软件都是在内部完成的，这是你减少处理消息的整个栈受攻击面的方法之一。

  Lex Fridman (02:47:23) We should say that the entirety of the software stack in Telegram is done from scratch internally to Telegram. We’re talking about not just the encryption, but everything running on the servers. The servers are built out, the hardware and the software are all done internally, which is one of the ways you reduce the attack surface on the entire stack that handles the messages.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:47:45) 这确实使它更安全，因为如果斯诺登的揭露教会了我们什么，那就是经常被每个人使用的开源工具、模块、库，最终都存在某些缺陷和安全问题，使软件变得脆弱。这也是确保你以尽可能高效的方式做事的一种方法，但这样做极其困难。你真的必须拥有团队中 exceptional 的人才才能达到这种彻底的程度，深入到低层次的编码，让你能够从头开始重新创建数据库引擎、网络服务器、整个编程语言，因为我们在后端用来开发客户端应用 API 的编程语言也是完全由我们团队构建的。

  Pavel Durov (02:47:45) It does make it more secure because if Snowden’s revelations taught us anything is that very often open source tools, modules, libraries, that they used by everybody, ended up having certain flaws and security issues that make software vulnerable. It’s also a way to make sure you are doing things the most efficient way possible, but it’s extremely difficult to do that. You really have to have exceptional talent in your team to achieve this level of thoroughness, to go to a low level of coding that allows you to recreate from scratch database engines, web servers, entire programming languages because the programming language we use on the back end to develop the API for the client apps is also entirely built by our team.

  莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:49:01) 移除、最小化对开源库的依赖是极其困难的，因为大多数公司都依赖开源库。

  Lex Fridman (02:49:01) Removing, minimizing the reliance on open source libraries is extremely difficult as most companies, they rely on open source libraries.

  帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:49:09) 嗯，我不会说我们完全独立于此。我们在后端使用 Linux。目前我们无法避免这一点，但在很大程度上，我们比大多数其他应用更加自力更生。

  Pavel Durov (02:49:09) Well, I wouldn’t say we are completely independent from that. We use Linux on the back end. There’s no way of avoiding it for us at the moment, but for the most part we are much more self-reliant than most other apps.

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