书童按：本篇是丹·豪瑟（Dan Houser）于2025年11月接受Lex Fridman的播客采访实录，丹是是一位传奇的视频游戏创作者，Rockstar Games（R星）的联合创始人，其创作的《侠盗猎车手》和《荒野大镖客》系列，长期以来被奉为神作，脍炙人口。其采访中涉及_等话题，精彩绝伦，令人击节称赞。初稿采用DeepSeek机器翻译，经自动化中英混排，书童仅做简单校对及批注。原稿中英文混排5万余字，书童将分为Part1-3发出，本篇是最后一部分，以飨诸君。
离开R星
Leaving Rockstar Games
Lex Fridman (01:59:30) 你于2020年离开了Rockstar，并最终创立了Absurd Ventures，正如我们一直在谈论的。对于在Rockstar的时光，你最怀念什么？是否有一些特定的时刻，当你回想起来时会带来快乐？
Lex Fridman (01:59:30) You left Rockstar in 2020 and eventually launched Absurd Ventures as we’ve been talking about. What do you miss about your time at Rockstar? Is there specific moments that bring you joy when you think about them?
Dan Houser (01:59:43) 当然，那是我整个，你知道，那是我20多年，21年左右的生活。是的，我为了这份工作搬到美国，并在从事这份工作中成长。我一直住在纽约。那是一段，有时非常紧张，有时又充满魔幻色彩的经历。但它也仅仅是我生命中巨大的一部分。
Dan Houser (01:59:43) Of course, it was my whole, you know, it was my life for 20 something years, 21 years or something. It was and I moved to America to do it, and grew up doing it. And I was always living in, in New York. It was a, at times, very intense and at other times magical experience. But it was also just a huge chunk of my life.
Lex Fridman (02:00:06) 低谷和高潮？
Lex Fridman (02:00:06) The lows and the highs?
Dan Houser (02:00:07) 以及中间状态。它就是，它就是我的生活，你知道吗？我的生活就是那份工作，我在纽约认识的人，以及我的家庭。我们正在做的事情紧张而创新，在不同的时间和以不同的方式被更广泛的社会所爱戴和憎恨。而且是在这家不断陷入麻烦的古怪公司里。所以真的很有趣。
Dan Houser (02:00:07) And the middles. It just, it was just my life, you know? My life was that job and the people I knew in New York, and my family. And we were doing something that was intense and innovative, both loved and hated by wider society in different ways and at different times. And in this weird company that was constantly in trouble. So it was really fun.
Lex Fridman (02:00:30) 即使只是回顾那段时光到今天，作为一个创意头脑，在那20年里你是如何演变的？
Lex Fridman (02:00:30) Just even looking back at that time to today how did you evolve as a creative mind across those 20 years?
Dan Houser (02:00:36) 嗯，我当时是个孩子，一个25岁的孩子……什么都不懂，我想成为一名作家，但我仍然没有在写作。我买了一个笔记本，偶尔会在上面涂鸦，那些笔记本我现在还放在某个地方。我当时在做电子游戏，那在当时是能想象到的最没有文学性的媒介了。在PS1游戏上，真的没有那种空间。
Dan Houser (02:00:36) Well, I was a child, I was a 25-year-old child- …who didn’t know anything, and I wanted to be a writer, but I still wasn’t writing. And I bought a notebook and I’d occasionally scribble in it, and I’ve still got those notebooks somewhere. And I was working in video games, which were the least literary medium it’s possible to imagine at the time. There was no room for that on PS1 games, really.
Dan Houser (02:01:00) 想着我需要停下来做点别的事，但又没有技能或信心去做。我在伦敦一直如此，然后我来到纽约，在纽约很有趣，真的很有趣，在纽约创办一家新公司也很有趣。那是一次惊人的冒险。但作为一个人，我仍然迷失着。然后当我27岁时，我仍然完全迷失，像个孩子。我停止了一些不良行为，差不多就在第二天，机会来了，得以在开放世界游戏上写作和工作，以及我在前几年半懂不懂学到的所有技能，还有我的思维方式——因为我是一名地理学家而不是历史学家，所以经常思考空间——所有这些结合在一起，我得到了在一个开放世界游戏上工作的机会。
Dan Houser (02:01:00) Thinking I needed to stop and do something else, but not having the skills or the confidence to do it. And I’d been doing that in London, then I came to New York, and it was fun, really fun to be in New York, and really fun to do a new company in New York. And that was an amazing adventure. But I was still lost as a human being. And then when I was 27, I was still completely lost, a child. And I stopped some of my bad behavior, and the next day pretty much the chance to write on, work on open world games and all the skills I’d half learned over the previous years and my way of thinking where I thought about space a lot because I was a geographer rather than a historian came together and I got the chance to work on an open world game.
Dan Houser (02:01:43) 所以感觉这就是命中注定。探索很有趣，但真正有趣的是与这个团队一起探索，你知道，Alex Horton，Navid，Leslie，苏格兰的伙计们，以及纽约所有以这种新方式制作这些新游戏的人。然后说：“哦，我们需要找一百个配音。我们没钱。我们到底要怎么做到？我们把所有人的朋友都找来，然后录制所有对话台词，就像我们会发明游戏中行人说话的方式一样。” 没有其他人做那种事。这很疯狂。所以我认为从2001年到2005年左右的那段时间，有很多早期的创新，感觉真的很令人兴奋，因为我们在做新东西。那感觉… 它感觉…
Dan Houser (02:01:43) So it felt like it was meant to be. It was fun to explore, but really fun to explore with this team that was, you know, Alex Horton, Navid, Leslie, and the guys in Scotland and all the people in New York making these new games in this new way. And going, “Oh, we need to find a hundred voices. We’ve got no money. How the hell are we going to do that? We’ll get everyone’s friends in and just record all lines of dialogue each as we kind of would invent the way that pedestrians would speak video games.” No one else was doing that kind of stuff. It was insane. So I think that that period from kind of 2001 to 2005, it was lots of early innovation and felt really exciting because we were doing new stuff. It didn’t feel… it felt…
Dan Houser (02:02:23) 有创意，但还不像写作。只是逐渐变成那样，我们感觉做了很多有创意的事情，学习如何组装这些东西，了解它需要什么。然后我想，我们之前谈过，但进入制作《GTA 4》的旅程，那时开始感觉更像一次真正的写作体验。在那个时候，我大概已经为此做好了准备。然后我就想，“嗯，这比电影更好。这是电影做不到的事情。” 你知道，这种扮演这个移民的360度体验。而且感觉，我们仍然只是触及了表面。我的意思是，现在在某些方面仍然感觉如此，但当时感觉还是有点…
Dan Houser (02:02:23) creative, but it didn’t feel like writing yet. Just becoming that, we felt lots of, doing lots of creative things and learning how to assemble the stuff and learning what it could take. And then I think, we talked about it earlier, but the journey into doing GTA 4 when it began to feel more like a proper writing experience. And I was kind of probably ready for that at that point. And then I was like, “Well, this is better than films. This is something that films can’t do.” You know, this 360-degree experience of being this immigrant. And it still felt, we were still only scratching the surface. I mean, it still feels like that now in some ways, but it still felt a little…
Dan Houser (02:02:55) 然后是那五款游戏，你知道，《GTA 4》和《5》、《Red Dead 1》和《2》，它们的所有额外扩展包，还有《Max Payne 3》，我认为在那个时期，我们将游戏的主题带入了新的领域。从写作的角度来看，那是最令人兴奋的时期。从商业和早期创意的时期来看，2001年到2005年可能是最令人兴奋的。
Dan Houser (02:02:55) And then that five games, you know, GTA 4 and 5, Red Dead 1 and 2, all the extra packs for them, and Max Payne 3, I think we took the games thematically into new places through that period. From a writing perspective, that was the most exciting period. From a business and sort of early creativity period, the period 2001 to 2005 was probably the most exciting.
Dan Houser (02:03:18) 最初的创始团队都做得很好。个人生活也还不错，感觉没那么一团糟。然后从2007年开始，’07，’08年，个人生活很幸福，有了孩子，婚姻美满，游戏也做得越来越好。但业务上有很多压力，你知道，预算变得非常大，所以增加了压力。所以总是有好的一面和压力的一面，但是，你知道，总是努力出现，尽我所能，思考如何用新的方式去做。总是尝试去想，“这是一个新媒介。”我们能做什么新的？
Dan Houser (02:03:18) To use the original starting team, all doing well. Personal life was doing okay, didn’t feel like such a mess. And then from 2007 onward, ‘7, ‘8, was happy personally having children, happily married, and the games were just getting much better. But there were lots of pressure in the business, you know, and the budgets got really big, so it added to the stress. So there’s always good bits and stresses, but, you know, and always just tried to show up and do my best and think about how I could do it in a new way. Always trying to go, “It’s a new medium.” What can we do that’s new?”
Lex Fridman (02:03:57) 但是作为一名作家，作为人性研究者，首先，你是否曾惊讶于自己实际上，你内心确实拥有，通过幽默和悲剧，创造这些极其引人入胜的人物的能力？因为我记得在哪里读到过，詹姆斯·乔伊斯20岁时说他将成为有史以来最伟大的作家。我觉得每个20岁的人都这么说。只是詹姆斯·乔伊斯做到了。
Lex Fridman (02:03:57) But as a writer, as a scholar of human nature, first of all, were you surprised that you were actually, you were actually able, like you had it in you, through humor and tragedy, to create these incredibly compelling characters? ‘Cause I- I think I remember reading somewhere that James Joyce, when he was 20, said that he’s going to be the greatest writer ever. And I- I feel like every 20-year-old says this. It’s just James Joyce pulls it off.
Dan Houser (02:04:27) 是的。
Dan Houser (02:04:27) Yes.
Lex Fridman (02:04:27) 那么，你是否曾惊讶于自己实际上能够做到？那个人是如何随着你的演变在写作上变得越来越好的？
Lex Fridman (02:04:27) So were you, were you surprised that you were a- actually able to do it? And how did that person get better and better and better at writing as you evolved?
Dan Houser (02:04:37) 团队变得越来越好，所以我们可以以更雄心勃勃的方式写作。动画变得越来越好，所以我们可以以更好的方式支持它。我们可以更深入。我的意思是，在PS2游戏上你无法那么深入，所以技术也在进化。我不知道。我觉得我擅长做这个，并且为此受过良好的训练。我在正确的时间出现在了正确的地方，我既幸运，又有一套思考角色的方法，当你把他们浓缩成大约十个句子时，会很有趣。我想我是，你知道，而且… 我以一种整体的方式看待世界。
Dan Houser (02:04:37) The team got better and better, so we could write in a more ambitious way. The animation got better, so we could support it in a better way. We could go deeper. I mean, you couldn’t go that deep on a PS2 game, so it was also just the technology evolved. I don’t know. I felt like I was good at doing it, and I was well-trained for it. I’d been in the right place at the right time, and I was both lucky and had a way of thinking about characters that, when you reduce them to about 10 sentences, was amusing. I think I was, you know, and it was… and I saw the world in a holistic way.
Dan Houser (02:05:14) 我以一种整体的方式看待社会，你可以把它分解成一个开放世界的电子游戏。我对此思考了很多，而我思考事物的方式恰好适合这个，不管出于什么原因。那只是好运。
Dan Houser (02:05:14) And I saw society in a holistic way that you could break apart into an open-world video game. I thought about it a bunch, and the way I think about things was suitable for that, for whatever reason. That was just good fortune.
Lex Fridman (02:05:27) Laszlo提到，还有另一位传奇人物你仍在合作。他说你会把自己锁在房间里写广播对话，我想。你会把自己锁在房间里，点凤尾鱼洋葱披萨和健怡可乐。这是准确的信息吗？
Lex Fridman (02:05:27) Laszlo mentioned that it was another legend who you’re still working with. He mentioned that you would lock yourself in a room writing dialogue for radio, I think. You would lock yourself in a room and get anchovies and onion pizza and Diet Cokes. Is this accurate information?
Dan Houser (02:05:45) 非常准确。
Dan Houser (02:05:45) Very accurate.
Lex Fridman (02:05:45) 在你生命的哪些时期，这是你创作过程的燃料？是凤尾鱼洋葱披萨吗？
Lex Fridman (02:05:45) For which periods of your life was this fuel for your creative process? Is it anchovies and onion pizza?
Dan Houser (02:05:52) 我的那一半还会加上意大利辣香肠。
Dan Houser (02:05:52) I would also get pepperoni on my half.
Lex Fridman (02:05:54) 好的。
Lex Fridman (02:05:54) Okay.
Dan Houser (02:05:54) 只是为了技术上的准确。
Dan Houser (02:05:54) Just to be technically accurate.
Lex Fridman (02:05:55) 好的。
Lex Fridman (02:05:55) Okay.
Dan Houser (02:05:55) 他不会加，因为他声称那时是素食主义者。但后来他向我承认他在冰箱里藏了鸡翅。所以他算是一种假素食者。或者我想我们现在有时仍然这样做，作为一种…
Dan Houser (02:05:55) He wouldn’t, because he claimed to be a vegetarian in those days. But then he’d admit to me he kept chicken wings hidden in the freezer. So he was a sort of fake vegetarian. Or I think we still do it now sometimes, as a sort of…
Lex Fridman (02:06:06) 是的，致敬。
Lex Fridman (02:06:06) Yes, homage.
Dan Houser (02:06:07) 为了纪念。但那始于2001年。我们，Rockstar的办公室那么小，我们又那么穷，没有… 我当时确实有一间私人办公室，但它确实是个小壁橱。没有窗户。字面意思就是坐在一个壁橱里。所以没有空间，我自己只有一张桌子和一把椅子。但我住得离办公室很近，所以我们每周会写一两个下午。他会过来。他是和我们一起工作的自由职业者。他会从长岛过来，然后我们跳上地铁，去我在切尔西的公寓，坐在我住的那个肮脏的小公寓里，从街角买披萨。然后那变成了，你知道，我们都喜欢健怡可乐和披萨，非常游戏开发者风格。那变成了好运的象征。
Dan Houser (02:06:07) To memorialize. But that began in 2001. And we, the office at Rockstar, was so small, and we were so broke that there was no… and I did have a private office at the time, but it genuinely was a cupboard. It didn’t have a window. It was literally sitting in a cupboard. So there was no room, and I had a desk and chair just for myself. But I lived quite near the office, so we would write one or two afternoons a week. He’d come in. He was a freelancer working with us. He’d come in from Long Island, and then we would jump on the subway, go to my apartment in Chelsea, and sit in this grimy little apartment I was living in and buy pizza from around the corner. And that became, you know, we both liked Diet Coke and pizza, very video game developer. And that became good luck.
Dan Houser (02:06:52) 在那里我们会有这些很好的写作会议，我们意识到我们相处得很好，我们有相似的幽默感，我们可以写这些东西，然后他会做所有制作方面的实际工作。所以这对我来说很完美，因为我得以将大部分实际工作外包，而他是一位出色的广播制作人。所以在这方面他是一个很棒的伙伴。那就是那种关系的开始。然后我会找他，我会说：“嗯，我们需要录80个声音。来帮我，因为我没法一次指导80个人。”所以他帮助了这个过程，他是一位非常好的制作人，既是音频制作人，也是找人录音的制作人，还是技术制作人。所以他只是，那就是那种关系的开始，而且一直…
Dan Houser (02:06:52) And there we’d have these good writing sessions where we realized we got on well with each other, and that we had a similar sense of humor, and we could write the stuff, and then he would do all of the real work producing it. So it was perfect for me because I got to outsource most of the real work, and he’s a brilliant radio producer. So he was a great partner in that way. And then that was how that relationship began. And then I’d get him, I would say, “Well, we’ve got to record these 80 voices. Come and help me because I can’t direct 80 people at once.” So he helped with that process, and he was a really good producer, like audio, like getting bodies in producers as well as technical producer. So he was just, that was the beginning of that relationship, and it was always…
Dan Houser (02:07:27) 我的工作是确保媒体内容感觉反映了世界的基调，我们会一起写。然后他的工作就是确保它听起来有趣，就像他会以一种非常有趣的方式制作它。
Dan Houser (02:07:27) My job was to ensure the media content felt like it reflected the tone of the world, and we would write it together. Then his job was just to make sure it sounded funny, like he would just produce it in a really funny way.
Lex Fridman (02:07:37) 再稍微提一下Laszlo，与他合作超过20年是什么感觉？他仍在与你合作。他是那种华丽多彩的人物，也因为在《侠盗猎车手》游戏中担任电台声音而备受喜爱。
Lex Fridman (02:07:37) Just to give a little bit more of a shout-out to Laszlo, what’s it been like working with him for over 20 years? He’s working with you still. He’s a kind of this flamboyant, colorful personality, much loved for being a voice also on radio in the Grand Theft Auto games.
Dan Houser (02:07:58) 是的，规则是当他扮演角色时，我会写他的初稿。所以我会… 而且随着时间的推移，我会写得越来越刻薄。
Dan Houser (02:07:58) Yeah, and the rule was when he was the character, I would write the first pass of him. So I would… and I would get nastier and nastier over time.
Lex Fridman (02:08:06) 是的，太棒了。
Lex Fridman (02:08:06) Yeah, it’s awesome.
Dan Houser (02:08:07) 所以到了他被剃头，你知道，被所有人惩罚的地步。但即使游戏一作接一作，他变得更糟了。在《GTA3》中，他是一个相当讨人喜欢的角色，然后，你知道，在接下来的12、13年里，情况越来越糟。所以我想他很高兴不再做那个了，但他做得很优雅。他是一个很棒的伙伴，因为他喜欢，你知道… 像我一样，我们只是喜欢制作东西。他喜欢制作东西。他喜欢在新的领域工作。在将漫画书变为现实方面，他提供了很大帮助，做了很多相关的工作。他现在正在做那个。而且，和他一起工作真的很有趣，他总是，你知道，把创造力放在第一位。而且他很滑稽。你知道，他就是一个非常…
Dan Houser (02:08:07) So to the point where he’s having his head shaved and, you know, being punished by everybody. But even game after game, he got worse. He began as this quite… In GTA3, he’s a quite likable character, and then, you know, over the next 12, 13 years, it just got worse and worse. So I think he’s glad not to be doing that anymore, but he did it with great grace. He’s just a great partner because he likes, you know… Like me, we just like making stuff. He likes to make stuff. He likes to work in new spaces. He’s been a great help on bringing the comic book to life, doing a lot of the work on that. He’s working on that right now. And just, he’s really fun to work with, and he’s always, you know, will put creativity first. And he’s ridiculous. You know, he’s just a really…
史上最伟大的游戏
Greatest game of all time
Lex Fridman (02:08:50) 以最好的方式，是的。除了你参与和创造的游戏之外，你认为哪些游戏是史上最伟大游戏的有力竞争者？
Lex Fridman (02:08:50) In the best possible way, yeah. Outside of the games you’ve participated in and created, what do you think are some candidates for the greatest game of all time?
Dan Houser (02:09:01) 俄罗斯方块。
Dan Houser (02:09:01) Tetris.
Lex Fridman (02:09:02) 俄罗斯方块。
Lex Fridman (02:09:02) Tetris.
Dan Houser (02:09:03) Game Boy版俄罗斯方块。毫无疑问。
Dan Houser (02:09:03) Tetris Game Boy. No question.
Lex Fridman (02:09:05) 俄罗斯方块和Game Boy，是的。
Lex Fridman (02:09:05) Tetris and the Game Boy, yeah.
Dan Houser (02:09:07) 那是玩那个游戏的完美设备。我从未像喜欢在它上面那样喜欢在任何其他设备上玩。我妻子正试图为我的孩子们弄一个复古的，现在正试图在圣诞节给他们弄到。那是我一生中对任何事物上瘾最深的一次，而我有太多上瘾的事了，我痴迷于它，梦到它。当你用线缆连接两个Game Boy，如果我消掉四行，它会推你的方块前进。这就像完美的游戏设计。所以从纯粹的解谜角度来看，没有游戏能接近它。
Dan Houser (02:09:07) It was the perfect device for playing that game. I never liked it as much on anything else. My wife was trying to get a retro one for my kids, trying to get them for Christmas right now. It was the most addicted I ever was to anything in my life of far too many addictions, that I was obsessed by it, dreaming about it. And when you link two together with the cable and if I got four, it would push yours forward. It was like the perfect game design. So from a pure puzzle perspective, nothing comes close.
Lex Fridman (02:09:34) 是的，极其简单。纯粹的游戏玩法，没有叙事。
Lex Fridman (02:09:34) Yes, extremely simple. Pure gameplay, no narrative.
Dan Houser (02:09:39) 不，不。什么都没有。不，没有任何个性。那是完全不同的东西。
Dan Houser (02:09:39) No, no. Nothing. No, no personality at all. It’s a completely different thing.
Lex Fridman (02:09:43) 完美。
Lex Fridman (02:09:43) Perfection.
Dan Houser (02:09:44) 但以它的方式很完美。开放世界游戏不可能那样完美。但你总是梦想制作那样的东西。
Dan Houser (02:09:44) But perfect in its way. Open-world games can’t be that perfect. But you always dream of making something like that.
Lex Fridman (02:09:50) 还有超级马里奥。
Lex Fridman (02:09:50) And Super Mario.
Dan Houser (02:09:52) 我想是N64上的那些。所有那些早期的3D游戏在你第一次看到时都非常惊人。在N64，PS1上，当你看到时，突然感觉这些游戏，它们活了，而且它们… 或者它们以一种不同的方式可信。我认为那很有趣。
Dan Houser (02:09:52) I think the N64 ones. All of those early 3D games were very amazing when you first saw them. On the N64, PS1, when you went, it suddenly was like these games, they’re alive, and they did… or they’re believable in a different way. I think that was very interesting.
Lex Fridman (02:10:10) 它看起来和任何东西都不一样。
Lex Fridman (02:10:10) It looks nothing like anything else.
Dan Houser (02:10:12) 任天堂有那种外观。不是吗？总是如此。
Dan Houser (02:10:12) Nintendo has that look. Doesn’t it? Always.
Lex Fridman (02:10:14) 是的。我想那就是，他们以这种任天堂的打磨而闻名，每个像素都有其目的。
Lex Fridman (02:10:14) Yeah. And I think that’s the, they’re known for this Nintendo polish of every pixel has a purpose.
Dan Houser (02:10:22) 是的。
Dan Houser (02:10:22) Yes.
Lex Fridman (02:10:23) 他… 我的意思是，我想俄罗斯方块也有同样的真正专注，用尽可能少的东西提供纯粹的游戏体验。真的很美。当然，塞尔达传说确实开创了很多世界的感觉，但它并不完全是开放世界。
Lex Fridman (02:10:23) And what he… I mean, I suppose Tetris has that same real focus on delivering a pure gaming experience with as little as possible. It’s really beautiful. And of course, Zelda really pioneered a lot of the feeling of a world, but it’s not quite open world.
Dan Houser (02:10:41) 不，但它很惊人。几乎就像新的那些，对我来说，它们感觉像希区柯克。它们只是在说电子游戏的语言，你知道，就像，你知道一切都会以这种方式那种方式运作。它很有系统性，但它如何组合在一起是如此惊人。感觉就像你看希区柯克的电影时，那不是现实。他是在用非常非常强烈的口音说电影的语言。它非常非常电影化。根本不是现实主义。这就是那些塞尔达游戏给我的感觉，它们是这些只有在电子游戏中才能存在的惊人事物。它们不可能是别的任何东西。
Dan Houser (02:10:41) No, but it’s amazing. It’s almost like the new ones, they almost, to me, feel like Hitchcock. They’re just speaking the language of video games, you know, like, you know everything’s gonna work this way and that way. It’s quite systemic, but how it all glues together is so amazing. It feels like when you watch a Hitchcock film, it’s not reality. He’s speaking the language of cinema in a very, very strong, with a very strong accent almost. It’s very, very cinematic. It’s not realism at all. And that’s what those Zelda games kind of feel to me like, they are these amazing things that could only be video games. They couldn’t be anything else.
Lex Fridman (02:11:15) 对我来说，另一个非常强大的开放世界是《上古卷轴》的世界。它是角色扮演，是奇幻，龙，所有那种东西。
Lex Fridman (02:11:15) For me, another really powerful open world is The Elder Scrolls world. It’s role-playing, it’s fantasy, dragons, all that kind of stuff.
Dan Houser (02:11:25) Todd在他所做的方面很出色。是的。它们有点，它们更… 我的意思是，从技术角度来看，我们总是参与其中。我对新游戏也有同感。我们不断尝试在RPG，角色扮演游戏和动作游戏之间找到平衡。然后，你知道，并尝试走向，嗯，带有RPG元素的动作冒险游戏，那意味着什么？我想它们都大致移入了相同的空间。但对我来说，它总是归结为，它容易玩吗？我们的机制超级流畅吗？然后我们能让我们的对话感觉非常生动吗？
Dan Houser (02:11:25) Todd is great at what he does. It is. They’re slightly, they’re more… I mean, from a technical perspective, we’re always involved. I’d be in the same with the new games. We’re constantly trying to find the balance between, you know, an RPG, a role-playing game, and an action game. And then that, you know, and try to go, well, an action-adventure game with RPG elements, and what does that mean? I think they’ve all kind of moved into roughly the same space. But for me, it always just comes down to, is it easy to play? Are our mechanics super slick? And then can we keep our dialogue feeling very alive?
Dan Houser (02:12:02) 比如，我并不总是很擅长… 就我们所做的而言，我喜欢别人做的时候。对于我们做的，我们总是想要非常犀利的对话，所以不要给很大的对话树，但仍然要让它有互动性。所以我们会失去一点互动性，但我们仍然会让对话感觉是活的。但我们会在对话方面做得更好，它会感觉更像，稍微更电影化的体验。
Dan Houser (02:12:02) Like, I’m not always a great… For just what we do, I like when other people do it. For what we do, we always want very punchy dialogue, so don’t give big trees, but still have it interactive. So we’re going to lose a touch of interactivity, but we’ll still have the dialogue feeling like it’s alive. But we’ll get better at dialogue, and it’ll feel more, a slightly more cinematic experience.
Lex Fridman (02:12:23) 是的。我认为《上古卷轴》系列几乎总是更倾向于开放世界。
Lex Fridman (02:12:23) Yeah. I think The Elder Scrolls series has almost always leaned a little more towards the open world.
Dan Houser (02:12:29) 是的。它们是真正的RPG。你知道，我参与制作的游戏，它们并不真正是RPG。它们是在故事驱动的动作游戏上加入了RPG元素。这只是侧重点略有不同，但我仍然认为他们所做的是惊人的。他们和他在这方面做得很出色。
Dan Houser (02:12:29) Yes. They’re real RPGs. You know, the games that I’ve worked on, they’ve not really been RPGs. They’ve had RPG elements onto a story-driven action game. It’s just a slightly different emphasis, but I still think what they do is amazing. They and he’s brilliant at doing it.
Lex Fridman (02:12:47) 我认为《侠盗猎车手》、《荒野大镖客：救赎》和《天际》是那种有数百万玩家只是到处走或开车转转的游戏。
Lex Fridman (02:12:47) And I think Grand Theft Auto, Red Dead Redemption, and Skyrim are games where you have millions of people that just walk around or drive around.
Dan Houser (02:12:58) 嗯。感受那个世界。
Dan Houser (02:12:58) Mm-hmm. And feel the world.
Lex Fridman (02:12:59) 感受那个世界。只是感受那个世界。
Lex Fridman (02:12:59) Feel the world. Just feel the world.
Dan Houser (02:13:01) 还有《巫师》，一样。
Dan Houser (02:13:01) And The Witcher, same thing.
Lex Fridman (02:13:03) 还有《博德之门1、2、3》，真的很有趣。他们真的试图让你做出的每个选择都真正地分支游戏，以至于那不是选择的幻觉，而是真的…
Lex Fridman (02:13:03) And Baldur’s Gate 1, 2, and 3, really interesting. They really tried to make every choice that you make genuinely branch the game, to where it’s not the illusion of choice, it’s really…
Dan Houser (02:13:15) 不是幻觉。是的。
Dan Houser (02:13:15) Nothing. Yeah.
Lex Fridman (02:13:16) 是真的，选择真的会改变什么，这在技术上真的很难实现。
Lex Fridman (02:13:16) It’s really, choice really does something and that’s really hard to pull off technically.
Dan Houser (02:13:20) 是的。而且很难实现。你总是在争论那个与强故事之间的最佳平衡点。你知道，还有强的机制。很难同时拥有所有这些，而且你，作为一个游戏制作团队，整个团队必须决定他们想落在那条线的哪个位置。
Dan Houser (02:13:20) Yes. And hard to pull off. You’re always debating the sweet spot between that and a strong story. You know, and strong mechanics. It’s hard to get them all, and you, as a game-making team, the whole team has to figure out where they want to fall on that line.
来自父亲的人生教训
Life lessons from father
Lex Fridman (02:13:41) 一个艰难的话题，你把这本书献给了你的妈妈和爸爸。特别是，你写道：“献给我的父亲，他在我完成这本书时去世了。” 你从你父亲那里学到了关于人生的什么？
Lex Fridman (02:13:41) A difficult topic, you dedicated the book to your mom and dad. And in particular, you wrote, “To my father, who died while I was finishing the book.” What have you learned about life from your dad?
Dan Houser (02:13:57) 要出现。要在场。每天去工作。热爱创造性的东西。你知道，他是一名律师，但他也是一名爵士音乐家，他尽最大努力做这两件事。重视家庭比其中任何一件事都重要。你知道，我认为他是一个在场的人。而且，你知道，他热爱书籍，一直热爱书籍，一直热爱电影，热爱音乐。他对电子游戏不感兴趣，但喜欢我们在做奇怪的事情。
Dan Houser (02:13:57) To show up. To be present. To go to work every day. To love creative things. You know, he was a lawyer, but he was also a jazz musician, and he did both to the best of his abilities. To value family as more important than either of those things. You know, he was a present guy, I think. And, you know, he loved books, always loved books, always loved films, loved music. He wasn’t into video games but liked that we were doing weird things.
Lex Fridman (02:14:37) 他以你为荣吗？
Lex Fridman (02:14:37) Was he proud of you?
Dan Houser (02:14:39) 是的，我想是的。我希望如此。而且，作为一名律师，他在某种程度上确实崇尚对“体制”竖中指。比如，你知道，每当生活变得疯狂……他总是站在弱者和平庸者一边。我认为，你知道，他总是想回敬别人，总是说些傻话，我当然，你知道，从他那里继承了这一点，可能对我有害，但这让生活更有趣。他总是会说些令人讨厌的话，而且根本不在乎。我认为那可能相当鼓舞人心。
Dan Houser (02:14:39) Yeah, I think so. I hope so. And he was, for a lawyer, he really venerated at some level, giving “the man” the finger. Like, you know, whenever life goes crazy… …He just was always on the side of the underdog and the ridiculous. And I think that, you know, he always wanted to answer people back, always give the silly comment, and I certainly, you know, taken that from him to my detriment probably, but it makes life more fun. He always would just say the obnoxious thing and just didn’t give a fuck. And that was, I think that was probably quite inspiring.
Lex Fridman (02:15:20) 所以你身上有一点这个特质？
Lex Fridman (02:15:20) So you have a bit of that in you?
Dan Houser (02:15:22) 不幸的是是的。不善于闭嘴，不善于循规蹈矩。
Dan Houser (02:15:22) Unfortunately so, yes. Not good at shutting up, not good at towing the line.
Lex Fridman (02:15:29) 我想我代表人类文明的大多数人说，幸运的是你拥有这个特质作为你的一部分，因为它贯穿于你的故事中。
Lex Fridman (02:15:29) I think I speak for most of human civilization that fortunately you have that as part of who you are, because it comes through your stories.
Dan Houser (02:15:40) 我想这让上学变得困难。你知道，他们送我去这所非常正规的学校——感觉就像，即使在20世纪90年代，它也像是设定在19世纪70年代。但是，你知道，我总是惹上麻烦，不是因为做错了什么，只是总跟老师顶嘴。就是不能安静。
Dan Houser (02:15:40) I think it made school difficult. You know, they sent me to this very formal school- That was like, it might as well have been set in the 1870s, in the 1990s. But then, you know, I always got in trouble just for… not for doing anything that wrong, just answering teachers back all the time. Couldn’t be quiet.
死亡
Mortality
Lex Fridman (02:16:01) 你多久思考一次死亡？你个人自己害怕死亡吗？
Lex Fridman (02:16:01) How often do you think about mortality? Are you personally, yourself afraid of death?
Dan Houser (02:16:07) 嗯，我父亲五月去世了，所以从那以后显然想得更多了。我的意思是，我经常思考它。我害怕吗？我不知道。有些日子非常害怕，有些日子一点也不。我当然希望活得足够长，能看到我的孩子们好好长大和安定下来，这是为了他们。除此之外，有些日子我感觉，你知道，与宇宙有灵性的连接，一点也不怕死；其他日子我感觉自己像一个偶然的幸运儿，会被愤怒的命运击倒，化为乌有，这让我感到恐惧。我只是…
Dan Houser (02:16:07) Well, my father passed away in May, so a lot more since then, obviously. I mean, I think about it a lot. Am I afraid of it? I don’t know. Some days intensely and some days not at all. I would love to stay alive long enough to see my kids properly grow up and settled, of course, for them. Aside from that, some days I feel, you know, spiritually connected to the universe and not afraid of death at all, and other days I feel like a random piece of good luck who’s gonna get struck down by an angry fate and turn to nothingness, and that terrifies me. I just…
Lex Fridman (02:16:51) 你对虚无怎么看？我的意思是，虚无本身就很可怕。
Lex Fridman (02:16:51) What do you think about the nothingness? I mean, that in itself is terrifying.
Dan Houser (02:16:55) 是的，那很可怕。那个，我的意思是，我倾向于，你知道，我生命中有很长一段时间被那些东西折磨。最近几年，我倾向于相信生命有目的和意义，我们拥有某种灵性或基于灵魂的存在。我不太确定是否有上帝是否重要，无论如何我们可能都应该以同样的方式生活。但我倾向于认为，你知道，生命有一种形而上的目的，而这个目的的一部分就是，你知道，寻找这个目的。但在其他时候，你知道，如果你读了太多科学，你会陷入一切都是虚无的困惑中。
Dan Houser (02:16:55) Yeah, that is terrifying. That, I mean, I tend to, I tend to, you know, I’ve spent long periods of my life tormented by that stuff. The last few years, I tend to believe there is a purpose and a point to life, and that we have some kind of spiritual or soul-based existence. Not, I’m not quite sure if it matters if there is a God or not, we should probably live our lives the same way either way. But I tend to think that, you know, there is a metaphysical purpose to life and part of that purpose is to, you know, search for the purpose. But at other points, you know, if you read too much science, you get wrapped up in the nothingness of it all.
Lex Fridman (02:17:38) 另外，你的大脑还有一个特点。在谈到艾米莉·勃朗特的《呼啸山庄》时，你说你幸运地被赋予了感受宏大情感的能力。所以你深刻地感受世界，有时浪漫，有时过于浪漫。你说过，我喜欢这句话，“情感可能会毁了你，但它们是我们拥有的最好的东西。” 那么，这种感受世界的能力，对你来说是一种天赋还是诅咒？你怎么看？
Lex Fridman (02:17:38) Also, there’s a component to your brain. When talking about Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë, you said that you have been, by fortune, struck with a bit of a capacity for the grandiosity of feeling. So you feel the world deeply, sometimes romantic, sometimes overly romantic. You’ve said, I like this line, “Feelings may destroy you, but they’re the best thing we have.” So that ability to feel the world, is that a gift or a curse for you? What do you think?
Dan Houser (02:18:10) 这是个非常有趣的问题，因为它显然两者都是。你知道，有时两者都是，或者有时是其中一种。当事情顺利时，当你感觉活着时，当你感觉与事物连接时，当你在人们身上看到美，在经历中看到喜悦时，它当然是美妙的。当你感觉，你知道，被世界遗弃，随波逐流，无法以某种方式与之连接，迷失了，被上帝或意识或命运或无论什么遗弃时，那就很糟糕。你知道，当我感觉自己是个糟糕的冒牌货时——大多数时候都是——那就很可怕。你宁愿不做这种垃圾事。
Dan Houser (02:18:10) That’s a really interesting question because it’s obviously both. You know, at times it’s both, or at times it’s one or the other. When things are going well, when you feel alive, when you feel like you’re connected to things, when you’re seeing beauty in people and joy in experiences, of course it’s wonderful. When you’re feeling like, you know, bereft and set adrift by the world and that you can’t connect to it in some way and you’re lost and abandoned by God or consciousness or fate or whatever it is, it’s awful. You know, when I feel like a dreadful hack, which is most of the time, it’s terrible. You’d rather not be doing this rubbish.
Dan Houser (02:18:49) 然后有时你正在进行创造性工作，感觉很好，你觉得自己在做正确的事，那感觉棒极了，但这种情况不常发生。
Dan Houser (02:18:49) And then sometimes you’re working creatively and it feels good and you feel like you’re doing the right thing and it feels fantastic, but that’s not very often.
Lex Fridman (02:18:57) 你认为可能只拥有其中一种而没有另一种吗？
Lex Fridman (02:18:57) Do you think it’s possible to have one without the other?
Dan Houser (02:18:59) 不。不，当然不可能。当我思考成长时，就我能够成长的程度而言，就是接受任何情况或自身任何方面的坏与好。你知道，去说：“好吧，这不完美。我不完美。”
Dan Houser (02:18:59) No. No, of course not. When I think about growing up, to the extent that I am capable of growing up, it is about accepting the bad with the good from any situation or any aspect of myself. You know, going, “Okay, it’s not perfect. I’m not perfect.”
Lex Fridman (02:19:18) 你说你经常感觉自己像个冒牌货。你大脑中那个自我批评的部分，是特性还是缺陷？
Lex Fridman (02:19:18) You said you often feel like a hack. Is that self-critical part of your brain, is that a feature or a bug?
Dan Houser (02:19:28) 这是个，我想这是我们接下来要深入探讨的新事物，缺陷特性。两者都是，不是吗？我的意思是，它不可能导致… 那种自我批评的大脑，我想很多人都深受其苦，我认为互联网就是设计来诱导它的，如果你以前没有，上网之后你就会有。它显然可能变成一种缺陷，但它也能给你动力和不安于现状的感觉，所以它也可能变成一种特性。
Dan Houser (02:19:28) That’s an, I think it’s the new thing that we’re going to lean into, the bug feature. It’s both, isn’t it? I mean, it cannot lead… That self-critical brain, I think lots of people suffer from, and I think the internet is designed to induce, if you didn’t have it before, you will have it after being online. It clearly can become a bug, but it also can give you drive and a lack of complacency, so it can also become a feature.
Lex Fridman (02:19:56) 我曾和保罗·康蒂有过相当激烈的争论，他是一位传奇的精神病学家，心灵研究者。他与许多著名的创意人士合作过，他认为那种消极的声音对于创造性天才来说根本不需要。我想，“我认识非常多拥有那种声音的创意人士。”
Lex Fridman (02:19:56) I had a pretty intense argument with Paul Conti, who’s a legendary psychiatrist, student of the mind, about this. He worked with many famous creative people and he thinks that that negative voice is not at all needed for creative genius. And I thought, “I know awfully a lot of creative people that have that voice.”
Dan Houser (02:20:20) 我宁愿没有它，但到目前为止我肯定一直与它共存。危险在于消极性… 对我来说，那种消极性和意识变成了同一件事，你知道吗？有时我必须努力不让自己只是永远消极，这对许多人来说可能是人类挣扎的一部分，对我来说肯定是。我想如果你试图做，你知道，好东西，而你不可避免地会反思，而且，你知道，你生活在这个不断、不断被互联网批评的世界里。当然，你知道，任何在互联网上发布东西的人，无论是自己的照片，还是他们制作的任何作品或其他什么，都会得到50条好评和一条差评。记住那条差评。
Dan Houser (02:20:20) I’d rather not have it, but I certainly have lived with it this far. There’s a danger that negativity… For me, that negativity and consciousness become the same thing, you know? And sometimes I have to fight to not just be perpetually negative, and that can be part of the human struggle for lots of people and certainly has been for me. I think if you’re trying to do, you know, good stuff and you’re reflective inevitably, and, you know, you live in this world of constant, constant criticisms by the internet. Of course, you know, everyone who ever puts something on the internet, be it a picture of themselves or any kind of work they’ve made or whatever it is, is gonna get 50 good comments and one bad comment. Remember the bad comment.
Dan Houser (02:21:06) 所以那，而那，那变成了消极声音的燃料。我不认识任何足够强大而不… 你知道，我们所有人，你知道，在某种程度上你应该只按重量来衡量那些东西，而不是按质量。但我们当然只关注质量。
Dan Houser (02:21:06) So that, and that, that becomes fuel for the negative voice. I don’t know anyone that’s strong enough not to… You know, we all, you know, at some level you should just measure that stuff in weight, not in quality. But of course we just focus on the quality.
Lex Fridman (02:21:18) 而且我确实认为总的来说，随着你变老，这对人们来说是真正的挑战。你可以看到人们选择采取的不同人生轨迹。但很容易滑入愤世嫉俗和消极，滑入陀思妥耶夫斯基《地下室手记》那种虚无主义的世界观。我认为随着时间推移，英雄式的行动是变得更加乐观，看到更多美好。我认为-
Lex Fridman (02:21:18) And I do think in general, as you get older, that’s the real challenge for people. You can see the different trajectories people choose to take. But it’s easy to slip into cynicism and negativity, into this Dostoevsky’s Notes from Underground, nihilistic kind of worldview. I think the heroic action to take with time is to become more optimistic, to see more good. I think that-
Dan Houser (02:21:43) 我同意
Dan Houser (02:21:43) I agree
Lex Fridman (02:21:43) 可能有一种英雄之旅，起初，也许是生命的前一半或三分之二，极度自我批判，然后在保持一些自我批判方面的同时，以便保持谦逊，开始看到周围一切事物、他人、世界中的美好，甚至也许偶尔，在周末，在自己身上。
Lex Fridman (02:21:43) There’s probably a hero’s journey of being extremely self-critical at first for the first, maybe half of your life or two-thirds, and then while maintaining some self-critical aspects just so you stay humble, start to see the good in everything around you, in other people, in the world, and even maybe every once in a while, on a weekend, in yourself.
Dan Houser (02:22:12) 我希望如此。我的意思是，这就是我一直以来的样子。我不可能比童年时更愤世嫉俗了。我认为你说得很美。我不可能比小时候更愤世嫉俗了。我那时看不到任何地方有善良。我认为20世纪70年代末到90年代初的英格兰不是一个充满伟大乐观主义和天真无邪的地方。它是残酷的，而我身在其中也很残酷。我想我已经变得天真得多，并试图在某些方面变得更加纯真，总是试图看到人们身上有缺陷的善良。我尝试或不得不强迫自己变成那样，因为另一种方式不好玩。不友善并不愉快。
Dan Houser (02:22:12) I hope so. I mean, that’s what I’ve been. I could not be more cynical. I think you put that beautifully. I could not be more cynical than I was as a child. I could not see goodness anywhere. I don’t think late 1970s to early 1990s England was a place of great optimism and naivete. It was brutal, and I was brutal within it. And I think I’ve become much more naive and tried to become more innocent in some ways, and always try to see the flawed good in people. I’ve tried or I’ve had to force myself to be like that because the other way is not fun. It’s not nice to not be nice.
Lex Fridman (02:22:59) 简单提一下，你在洛杉矶动漫展上与Ryan McCaffrey有一次精彩的对话。我一直是他的大粉丝。他在IGN写很棒的文章，他有一个很棒的播客，每个人都应该去听听。我真的很喜欢。而且，我得以参加一个动漫展，就在观众席里。就像我们私下说的，洛杉矶动漫展，这是我参加的第一个动漫展。那里有各种各样真实、真诚的极客，心地善良…
Lex Fridman (02:22:59) As a brief aside, you had a wonderful conversation with Ryan McCaffrey at LA Comic-Con. I’ve been a big fan of his for a long time. He writes amazing stuff at IGN, and he has a great podcast, everybody should go listen to it. I really enjoyed it. Plus, I get to attend a Comic-Con and just be there in the audience. And like we were saying offline, the LA Comic-Con, it’s the first Comic-Con I’ve been to. There’s just all kinds of real, genuine nerds, good-hearted…
Dan Houser (02:23:24) 哦，很吸引人。是的，很棒。
Dan Houser (02:23:24) Oh, it’s fascinating. Yeah, brilliant.
Lex Fridman (02:23:25) 那里充满了善意、美好，以及作为某件事粉丝的简单快乐。
Lex Fridman (02:23:25) It’s just so much kindness and goodness and just simple joy in being a fan of a thing was there.
Dan Houser (02:23:33) 是的，这就是那些活动的全部意义。
Dan Houser (02:23:33) Yeah, which is what those things are all about.
Lex Fridman (02:23:34) 是的。好的，我们来谈谈一些史上最伟大的书籍。我也应该提一下他与Sonia Walger做的优秀播客，她是你的朋友，但她有个很棒的播客。她让嘉宾挑选他们最喜欢、最具影响力的五本书等等。你挑选了五本小说，对应你人生的每个十年。对于听众，他们应该去听听那个对话。但你选了亚瑟·兰塞姆的《冬日假期》。第二本是艾米莉·勃朗特的《呼啸山庄》。然后是F·斯科特·菲茨杰拉德的《夜色温柔》。詹姆斯·琼斯的《细细的红线》，和乔治·艾略特的《米德尔马契》。但是退一步讲，回顾那次对话，如果一个外星人来了，你认为有哪些书籍是你会推荐给他们的候选？
Lex Fridman (02:23:34) Yeah. Okay, so let’s talk about some of the greatest books of all time. And I should also give a shout-out to an excellent podcast he did with Sonia Walger, who’s a friend of yours, but she had a great podcast. She has guests pick their five favorite, most impactful books and so on. You picked five fiction books, one for each decade of your life. For the audience, they should go listen to that conversation. But you picked Winter Holiday by Arthur Ransome. Second one was Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë. Then Tender is the Night by F. Scott Fitzgerald. The Thin Red Line by James Jones, and Middlemarch by George Eliot. But just zooming out, reflecting back on that conversation, what do you think if an alien came, what are some candidates for books that you would recommend to them?
Dan Houser (02:24:22) 《米德尔马契》。
Dan Houser (02:24:22) Middlemarch.
Lex Fridman (02:24:23) 《米德尔马契》。
Lex Fridman (02:24:23) Middlemarch.
Dan Houser (02:24:23) 它是用英语写的最好的小说。《战争与和平》是用俄语写的最好的小说之一，我认为。我想这两本都是因为如果你只有一本书，你会想要一本长书。
Dan Houser (02:24:23) It’s the best novel written in English. War and Peace is one of the best novels written in Russian, I would argue. I think both of those are because if you’ve only got one book, you want a long book.
Lex Fridman (02:24:38) 是的，没错。
Lex Fridman (02:24:38) Yeah, true.
Dan Houser (02:24:39) 它们都是那种… 我一直试图放入游戏中的感觉，你知道，那种生活的全部都在这里的感觉。你有爱、死亡、暴力、浪漫，整个人类的体验以不同的方式呈现。所以我认为有些东西很神奇，你知道，《名利场》，我以前喜欢那本小说，不是那本杂志，因为同样，生活的全部都在这里。
Dan Houser (02:24:39) And they’re both books that kind of… it’s something I was always trying to put into games, and you know, that feeling of all of life is here. You’ve got love, death, violence, romance, the whole human experience in different ways. So I think there’s something amazing about, you know, Vanity Fair, I used to love the novel, not the magazine, because same thing, all of life is here.
Lex Fridman (02:25:04) 你也高度评价了F·斯科特·菲茨杰拉德和海明威。
Lex Fridman (02:25:04) You also spoke highly of F. Scott Fitzgerald and Hemingway.
Dan Houser (02:25:08) 我在20多岁时完全痴迷于他们。完全痴迷。
Dan Houser (02:25:08) I was obsessed by them in my 20s. Completely obsessed.
Lex Fridman (02:25:12) 一个人在那个年龄必须如此。绝对。
Lex Fridman (02:25:12) As one must be. Absolutely.
Dan Houser (02:25:14) 在那个年龄，我认为他们作为一个组合是如此惊人。一个帮助发现了另一个，然后先去世，然后突然在默默无闻中死去，然后在另一个人还活着并陷入——不是默默无闻——而是衰退时，被重新发现为天才。我认为他们的关系本身就很有小说色彩。
Dan Houser (02:25:14) At that age, and I think them as a double act is so amazing. One helped discover the other and then died first, and then suddenly died in obscurity and then was rediscovered as a genius while the other one was still alive and falling into not obscurity but into decline. I think their relationship is itself very novelistic.
Lex Fridman (02:25:37) 顺便说一下，这是写作中也许不再有，也许仍然有的现象，你知道，像弗朗茨·卡夫卡那样在默默无闻中去世的人。所有这些在默默无闻中去世的作家。没有人知道他们，他们后来才出名。这很有趣。那是一个非常有趣的… 你知道，弗朗茨·卡夫卡尤其引人入胜，因为他希望他所有的作品都被烧掉，毁掉。所以，说到批评的声音，我认为他是20世纪最优秀的作家之一。当然，反乌托邦小说真的很有趣，《1984》，《美丽新世界》。
Lex Fridman (02:25:37) That, by the way, is a phenomenon of writing maybe no longer, maybe still, that, you know, people like Franz Kafka who died in obscurity. All these writers who die in obscurity. Nobody knows them and they become famous later. That is just so interesting. That’s such an interesting… You know, Franz Kafka in particular is fascinating because he wanted all of his work to be burnt, like destroyed. So that, speaking of the critical voice, and I think he’s one of the best writers of the 20th century. Of course, the dystopian novels are really interesting, 1984, Brave New World.
Dan Houser (02:26:20) 我喜欢《1984》。我从来没听过或读过，然后我想我是在新冠疫情期间通过有声书听的，或者也许读的，我记不清了。然后变得，我想我两者都做了，变得痴迷于它。它有那种渗透到《极乐天堂之床》中的元素，但它太好了。
Dan Houser (02:26:20) I love 1984. I’d never listened to it or read it, and then I think I did it on Talking Book, or I maybe read it, I can’t remember, during COVID. And became, I think I did both, became obsessed by it. And it’s got the elements of that creeping into A Bed of Paradise, but it’s so good.
Lex Fridman (02:26:34) 不错。
Lex Fridman (02:26:34) Nice.
Dan Houser (02:26:34) 我以前没意识到它这么好。
Dan Houser (02:26:34) I hadn’t realized how good it was.
Lex Fridman (02:26:37) 是的。
Lex Fridman (02:26:37) Yes.
Dan Houser (02:26:37) 而且它非常符合当下。
Dan Houser (02:26:37) And it’s so of the moment.
Lex Fridman (02:26:39) 它几乎因为它的名声和…… …它几乎成了陈词滥调，你抛开人物-
Lex Fridman (02:26:39) It’s almost like because of its fame and… …It’s almost like cliché, and you take away the character-
Dan Houser (02:26:45) 是的，如果它是英语… 而且我记得1984年。然后你想，“这是…” 我记得那首歌。只是太多了。
Dan Houser (02:26:45) Yeah, if it were English… And I remember the year 1984. And you’re like, “This is…” I remember the song. It’s just too much.
Lex Fridman (02:26:50) 是的，太多了。
Lex Fridman (02:26:50) Yeah, too much.
Dan Houser (02:26:50) 不可能那么好。然后它就是那么好。我是完全不带先入之见接触它的，只是，“哦，我应该读完这个，因为这是另一本我没读过的经典。”然后它令人难以置信。
Dan Houser (02:26:50) It can’t be that good. And then it was that. I came to it completely cold, just, “Oh, I should work my way through this because it’s another classic I haven’t read.” And then it’s incredible.
Lex Fridman (02:26:59) 我读过次数最多的书是乔治·奥威尔的《动物农场》。我不知道为什么，但那种用童话般的方式讲述极权主义。
Lex Fridman (02:26:59) And the book I’ve read more than any other book is Animal Farm by George Orwell. I don’t know why exactly, but the childlike fairy tale telling of totalitarianism.
Dan Houser (02:27:10) 嗯，你是在一个共产主义国家长大的。
Dan Houser (02:27:10) Well, you grew up in a communist country.
Lex Fridman (02:27:12) 是的，也许就是这个原因。它的根源。
Lex Fridman (02:27:12) Yeah, maybe that’s it. The roots of it.
Dan Houser (02:27:14) 你知道，我记得，我是冷战时期在伦敦长大的孩子。我们总是害怕东欧人。你们会来杀死我们所有人。然后我最终娶了一个波兰人。我那时… 我们… 我们有为我们工作、与我们一起工作的乌克兰人。几年前，我们在纽约州北部围坐在篝火旁，篝火是我们以前的保姆的丈夫搭建的，他是乌克兰人，他曾在红军服役。我当时想，历史是如此奇怪，以至于你最终… 红军曾经是终极敌人。而现在，我们只是和… 在一起。就像，一切都变了。你认为这些事物是永恒的，但它们真的不是。
Dan Houser (02:27:14) You know, I remember, I was a kid in the Cold War in London. And we were always terrified of Eastern Europeans. You were going to come and kill us all. And then I ended up marrying a Pole. And I was… We were… And we had Ukrainians who worked for us and worked with us. And a few years ago, we were sitting around a campfire in Upstate New York, with the campfire built by our old nanny’s husband, who’s Ukrainian, and he’d been in the Red Army. I was like, history is so strange that you end up… The Red Army used to be the ultimate enemy. And like, we’re now just hanging out with… It’s like, everything changes. You think these things are permanent, and they’re really not.
Dan Houser (02:27:55) 你知道，我们现在也面临一些这种情况，你认为这些结构是永久的，但它们会改变。
Dan Houser (02:27:55) You know, and we face some of that now, where you think these structures are permanent, and they’re going to change.
Lex Fridman (02:27:59) 你还提到，三本伟大的二战书籍是《细细的红线》和瓦西里·格罗斯曼的《生活与命运》。还有格雷厄姆·格林的《恋情的终结》。是什么造就了一本伟大的战争书籍？
Lex Fridman (02:27:59) And you also mentioned that the three great World War II books are The Thin Red Line and Life and Fate by Vasily Grossman. And The End of the Affair by Graham Greene. What makes for a great war book?
Dan Houser (02:28:14) 我认为二战很有趣，因为它显然影响了每个地方。所以你可以得到所有这些不同类型的故事。而且有那么多好的… 我只是试图想出一个美国、一个英国、一个东欧的，以获得不同的视角。但世界各地有那么多惊人的二战书籍，涉及各种故事。我认为最完整的一本，因为它包含了生活的全部，可能是《生活与命运》。那本书很惊人。
Dan Houser (02:28:14) I think World War II is interesting because it affects everywhere, obviously. And so you can get all these different kinds of stories. And there are so many good… I was just trying to come up with a range of one American, one British, one Eastern European, just to get different perspectives. But there are so many amazing World War II books around all kinds of stories. I think the most complete one, because it is this all of life being there, probably is Life and Fate. Which is amazing.
Lex Fridman (02:28:44) 它是瓦西里·格罗斯曼写的。他亲身经历了斯大林格勒战役。而且还有深刻的哲学成分。
Lex Fridman (02:28:44) It was written by Vasily Grossman. He experienced Stalingrad firsthand. And there’s also just a deep philosophical component.
Dan Houser (02:28:51) 特雷布林卡那一部分是任何书中我读过的最令人痛心的章节之一。它真的，几乎比其他任何关于大屠杀的艺术作品都更能让我感受到在那个时刻你会有什么感觉。我的意思是，那是一部不可思议的人道主义作品。
Dan Houser (02:28:51) And the bit in Treblinka is one of the most harrowing sections of any book I ever read. And it really, almost more than any other piece of art around the Holocaust, made me feel what you would feel like at that moment. I mean, it’s just an incredible piece of humanism.
Lex Fridman (02:29:08) 还有，我的意思是，维克多·弗兰克尔的《活出生命的意义》。
Lex Fridman (02:29:08) And also just, I mean, Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl.
Dan Houser (02:29:11) 是啊。哦，是的。
Dan Houser (02:29:11) Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Lex Fridman (02:29:12) 似乎那个背景以最纯粹的方式揭示了人性，以及什么样的… 你知道，《活出生命的意义》中是当一切都被从你身边夺走时，你知道，残存的，在这种情况下，对他妻子的爱…… …是那一点点燃烧的火焰。还有，比如说你的格罗斯曼，是微小的善举… …是让人类精神得以持续的东西。
Lex Fridman (02:29:12) It seems like that context reveals, in the most pure way, human nature and what kind of… You know, in Man’s Search for Meaning is when everything is taken from you, you know, the little remains of love for, in this case, his wife… …Is the thing that is a little flame that burns. And let’s say your Grossman is small acts of kindness… …Is the thing that allows the human spirit to persist.
Dan Houser (02:29:43) 我喜欢《生活与命运》中的那部分，当你在… 显然，那是在斯大林时期，所以他们都在失去… 他们都知道他们以为革命会带来的美好不会发生。所以每个人都害怕被斯大林杀死，因为那是在大清洗之后。但然后你看到这些人，他们被困在一栋建筑里，在斯大林格勒战斗。所以他们知道此时此刻反正他们死定了。于是他们得以像纯粹、完美的马克思主义共产主义者那样生活，远离斯大林和他所有的胡闹。我认为那一部分令人难以置信，因为你意识到在某些方面，在其所有的恐怖之中，20世纪最令人失望的事情之一，在某种程度上，就是共产主义的彻底失败。
Dan Houser (02:29:43) I love the bit in Life and Fate when you get… Obviously, it’s in this Stalinist period, and so they’re all losing… They all know that what they thought was going to be wonderful about the revolution isn’t going to happen. So everyone’s scared of being killed by Stalin because it’s post the purges. But then you get these guys and they’re trapped in a building, fighting in Stalingrad. And so they know at this moment they’re dead anyway. And they get to live like pure, perfect Marxist communists away from Stalin and all his nonsense. And I thought that section’s incredible because you realize in some ways, in all of its horrors, the most disappointing thing about the 20th century, in some ways, was the absolute failure of communism.
Dan Houser (02:30:29) 你知道吗？因为那是一个如此，你知道，所谓的美丽想法，但它一次又一次地就是行不通。而这些为之奋斗，然后看到它行不通的人们，我认为他们是那种迷人的角色。你知道… …所有1917年的革命者，后来都被斯大林杀害了，除了他和列宁之外的所有人。
Dan Houser (02:30:29) You know? It was… Because it was such a, you know, quote-unquote beautiful idea and it just did not work time and time again. And these people who fought for it and then saw it not working, I think they’re sort of fascinating characters. You know… …All of the revolutionaries from 1917 that were then killed by Stalin, which was all of them apart from him and Lenin.
Lex Fridman (02:30:50) 而那是，你知道，现代政治中的人们谈论共产主义就像它是微不足道的，它会轻易导致暴行，但我不认为它那么微不足道。这是人类的理想主义。就像，你知道，为什么我们不能… 基本上，为什么我们不能和睦相处？这背后有真正的同情心。有真正的爱。你意识到的是… 这是对人性真正的研究，不幸的是，在规模上，那种同情心被集权所滥用。所以总有一个独裁者，在那个背景下，在那套技术条件下，独裁者会出现，并做出与… …理想承诺相反的事。
Lex Fridman (02:30:50) And that was, you know, people in modern-day politics talk about communism like it’s trivially, it’s trivial that it would lead to atrocities, but I don’t think it’s that trivial. It’s this idealism of humans. It’s like, you know, why can’t… Basically, why can’t we all get along? There’s a real compassion behind it. There’s real love. And what you realize is there is… it’s a real study, the 20th century, of human nature that unfortunately at scale, that kind of compassion is abused by centralized power. So there’s a dictator always, in that context, in those, given that set of technologies, a dictator arises and does the opposite… …Of what the promise of the ideal is supposed to be.
Dan Houser (02:31:37) 嗯，我认为… 我那时想了很多，因为我被所有这些失望的共产主义者教导过，你知道吗？89年后，所有这些英国的共产主义者，你知道，都不得不接受，发现在…发生的所有这些暴行。所以它总是让我着迷。然后你思考现代时刻的复杂性或一个人自己的价值观所在。我说，你知道，没有，而且无论他们，我们现在称之为左派还是右派，是否与那些词语的共产主义时代有任何关联？我想可能没有。我认为事情已经变了，但根本上，我会说，我认为值得为之奋斗的一个价值是，每当任何一方开始走向思想控制时… …就远离。
Dan Houser (02:31:37) Well, I think… I thought a lot about that then because I was taught by all these disappointed communists, you know? After ’89, all of these English communists, you know, were all like having to access, discovering all these atrocities that happened in… You know, so it was, it always fascinated me. And then you think about complexities or where one’s own values are in the modern moment. And I say, you know, without, and whether either of them, what we would call left now or call right now, does it have any bearing on the sort of communist era of those words? And I would say probably not. I think things have changed, but fundamentally, the one value that I would go, I would think is worth fighting for is whenever either side starts to move towards thought control… …Move away.
Dan Houser (02:32:25) 那永远不是正确的结果。永远正确的结果不是，“哦，你说错了话。你现在应该被清除。”那永远永远不应该是我们应该倾向的事情。
Dan Houser (02:32:25) That’s never the right outcome. The never right outcome is, “Oh, you’ve said the wrong thing. You should be removed now.” That should never ever be a thing we should lean towards.
Lex Fridman (02:32:35) 是的，似乎自由，个人自由，是…
Lex Fridman (02:32:35) Yeah, it does seem like freedom, individual freedom, is a prerequisite for…
Dan Houser (02:32:41) 对于幸福来说是。
Dan Houser (02:32:41) For happiness.
Lex Fridman (02:32:42) …对于幸福… …对于更广泛社会的繁荣来说是。所以，就像你说的，1984相当… 我的意思是，它是一种漫画式描绘。
Lex Fridman (02:32:42) …for happiness… …For the flourishing of a larger society. So there’s, like you said, 1984 is pretty… I mean, it’s a caricature.
Dan Houser (02:32:48) 但它很出色。
Dan Houser (02:32:48) But it is brilliant.
Lex Fridman (02:32:49) 它相当… 它实际上也是个好故事。那是我对《美丽新世界》的批评，它只是写得不好。但我想《美丽新世界》可能比《1984》更适用于21世纪，所以…
Lex Fridman (02:32:49) It’s quite… It’s actually also just a good story. That’s my criticism of Brave New World, it’s just poorly written. But I think Brave New World probably applies more to the 21st century than does 1984, so…
Dan Houser (02:33:02) 我不知道。我认为《1984》中的虚假战争…… …以及它揭示的方式… …其中的一切都是为他设的局。如果他能看到互联网… 有些东西，它就像一个模拟互联网，他们建立的那个世界。…围绕主角。
Dan Houser (02:33:02) I don’t know. I think 1984 with the fake wars… …And the way that it revealed… …Everything in it was a setup for him. There’s something that if he could’ve seen the internet… there’s something of, it’s like an analog internet, that world they build. …Around the main character.
给年轻人的建议
Advice for young people
Lex Fridman (02:33:19) 对于今天的年轻人，关于，比如说，事业，你会给出什么建议？如何拥有一份能为之自豪的事业，如何拥有能为之自豪的人生？你的人生非同寻常。
Lex Fridman (02:33:19) What advice would you give to a young person today about, let’s say, career? How to have a career they can be proud of, how they can have a life to be proud of? You’ve had a non-standard life.
Dan Houser (02:33:32) 我的人生很幸运，其中我奋力把事情搞砸，而命运总是给我一根骨头。
Dan Houser (02:33:32) I’ve had a lucky life in which I have fought to mess things up and fate has always thrown me a bone.
Lex Fridman (02:33:41) 你在南美洲旅行过，有流浪汉拿着砍刀追你。
Lex Fridman (02:33:41) You’ve traveled in South America and had hobos chase you with machetes.
Dan Houser (02:33:47) 是的，一次。
Dan Houser (02:33:47) Yeah, once.
Lex Fridman (02:33:48) 所以那发生过。
Lex Fridman (02:33:48) So that happened.
Dan Houser (02:33:49) 那是一系列糟糕的人生决定。而且我跑掉了。你知道，我的意思是，我逃到了南美洲。那是个糟糕的决定。我从那个拿着刀的人那里跑掉了。那是个好决定。我来到了美国。那是个好决定。我来到洛杉矶，那，我认为，是个好决定。看到美国不同的一面，处于不同的创意环境中很有趣。洛杉矶在创造力和娱乐方面仍然很棒，更广泛的娱乐产业。我认为那很有趣。我会说什么？我会说当你得到机会时，抓住它。这是我做得很好的一件事。
Dan Houser (02:33:49) That was a series of poor life decisions. And I ran away. You know, I mean, I ran away to South America. That was a poor decision. I ran away from the guy with a knife. That was a good decision. I came to America. That was a good decision. I came to LA, that’s, I think, been a good decision. It’s been fun to see a different side of America and be in a different creative environment. LA is still amazing for creativity and entertainment, the wider entertainment industry stuff. I think that’s been fun. What would I say? I would say when you get a chance, take it. That was one thing I did do well.
Dan Houser (02:34:33) 当我得到机会时，我擅长抓住它们。我会说不要太年轻就担心你的事业。我会说担心拥有一个全面的智识内在生活，因为你将要在自己的头脑中度过整个一生。所以你对自己的头脑越感兴趣，你对世界越感兴趣，你就越不会惹恼自己。所以我会说，我会说不要在本科阶段攻读职业学位。那是我的… 我会说做点别的。做点，你知道，随机的，然后之后再专注。那会是，我认为我是在反对人们四年前对STEM科目的痴迷。
Dan Houser (02:34:33) When I got chances, I was good at taking them. I would say do not worry too young about your career. I would say worry about having a rounded intellectual inner life, because you’re going to spend the whole of your life in your own head. So the more interesting you find your own head, the more interesting you find the world, the less you’re going to annoy yourself. So I would say, I would say do not do a vocational degree as an undergraduate. That’s been my… I would say do something else. Do something, you know, random and then focus afterwards. That would be, I think I was advocating against the obsession that people had about four years ago with STEM subjects.
Dan Houser (02:35:14) 而现在人工智能可能会让它们都变得无关紧要，也许。所以，你知道，看到一切都在变化很有趣。工作没那么难。你知道，出现，保持热情。亲自出现，保持热情。帮助别人。说，“你在任何工作中都会做得很好。”人们，你知道。
Dan Houser (02:35:14) And now AI is going to make them all irrelevant anyway, perhaps. So, you know, it’s interesting to see everything changes. Jobs are not that hard. You know, turn up, be enthusiastic. Turn up in person, be enthusiastic. Help people. Say, “You’ll be fine in any job.” People, you know.
Lex Fridman (02:35:37) 你总是知道何时出现了要抓住的机会吗？比如，“好的，这很有趣，这是新的，这很不一样”？
Lex Fridman (02:35:37) Did you always know when the chance to take showed up? Like, “Okay, this is interesting, this is new, this is different”?
Dan Houser (02:35:42) 并不总是，不。但重要的时刻是搬到美国的机会。对我来说，那是一个重要时刻。我的生活一团糟…
Dan Houser (02:35:42) Not always, no. But the big times were the chance to move to America. For me, that was a big moment. My life was a mess in…
Lex Fridman (02:35:49) 那是个奇怪的时机。我读到Sam给你写了封邮件。什么… 在南美洲…
Lex Fridman (02:35:49) That was weird timing. I read that Sam wrote you an email. What… In South America…
Dan Houser (02:35:56) 我当时真的在南美洲的哥伦比亚，那里战争肆虐。我在做一系列非常糟糕的人生决定，并且在25岁时缺乏生活技能。我最新一个糟糕决定是起得太早，因为警察直到9点才开始工作，但抢劫犯8点就开始了。所以我8点就沿着海滩散步，这些家伙… 这个前一天跟我聊过天的拉斯塔法里教徒出现了，开始试图跟我说话。然后两个人过来跟他说话，我分不清他们是想抢劫他因为他欠他们钱，还是他把我带给了他们。但我确实注意到其中一个有砍刀，另一个有种坏掉的枪。所以我想，“这不好。”然后我跑掉了，穿着我愚蠢的鞋子沿着海滩狂奔。
Dan Houser (02:35:56) I was literally in South America in Colombia, where there was a war raging. I was making a series of very poor life choices and had a lack of life skills at age 25. My latest poor choice was to get up too early because the police didn’t start work until 9:00, but the muggers started at 8:00. So I was out walking along the beach at 8:00, and these guys… this Rasta who turned up, who I’d been talking to the day before, started trying to talk to me. Then two guys came up to talk to him, and I couldn’t tell if they were trying to mug him because he owed them money or if he brought me to them. But I did notice one of them had a machete, and the other had a kind of broken gun. So I thought, “This is not good.” And I ran off, sprinted down the beach in my silly shoes.
Dan Houser (02:36:48) 我一生中第一次有机会跑到一条路上，跳进一辆出租车，大喊：“带我去任何地方！”我感觉自己在一部动作电影里，一个拿着砍刀的家伙在追我。出租车司机回头看了看，看到那个拿着砍刀的家伙，然后说，“？” 我说：“不，不，不，他们不是我的朋友。”
Dan Houser (02:36:48) And I got the chance for once in my life to run over to a road, jump into a taxi, and scream, “Take me anywhere!” I felt like I was in an action movie with a guy chasing after me with a machete. The taxi driver looked back, saw the dude with the machete, and went, “?” And I’m like, “No, no, no, they’re not my friends.”
Dan Houser (02:37:05) “带我离开这里。”他开车把我带到街上，进入城市的一部分，在卡塔赫纳的旧城区和新城区之间。我下了车，然后脚被一块石头割伤了。那就是我受伤的总和。然后我去了一个网吧，因为那大概是98年底，得到了来纽约为一个游戏工作六周的机会。我想，“嗯，如果我在南美洲待更久，我会把自己害死的，”因为我正在陷入一些愚蠢的事情。所以我去了纽约，他们刚刚开始Rockstar。我在那里写了任务说明等等，帮助设定了基调，结果就留了下来。
Dan Houser (02:37:05) “Get me out of here.” He drove me up the street into a bit where the town was, kind of between the old town and the new town in Cartagena. I got out of the car and then cut my foot on a rock. That was the sum total of my injuries. Then I went to an internet cafe because this was probably late ’98 and got the chance to come and work on a game for six weeks in New York. I was like, “Well, if I stay in South America much longer, I’m going to get myself killed,” because I was getting into silly stuff. So I went to New York, and they were just starting Rockstar. I got to write the mission statements and whatnot there, help set the tone for that, and just ended up staying.
Dan Houser (02:37:48) 我不得不来回几次，直到所有签证都办好。然后我就留下来了。“我会待一年，因为纽约挺有趣的。”实际上没那么… 那是朱利安尼的鼎盛时期，在他变成疯子之前。当你去酒吧时，被告知不能跳舞。因为他们试图压制纽约的乐趣。所以实际上比伦敦乐趣少，但纽约仍有巨大的活力。并且接触到了纽约资本主义的那种疯狂。
Dan Houser (02:37:48) I had to come and go a bit while all the visas got sorted out. And then I just ended up staying. “I’ll stay for a year because New York’s pretty fun.” It actually was not that… this was the height of Giuliani before he was a maniac. You couldn’t, when you went to bars, you were told you couldn’t dance. Because they were trying to clamp down on New York being fun. So it was actually less fun than London, but there’s still a great energy in New York. And got exposed to the kind of madness of New York capitalism.
Lex Fridman (02:38:18) 顺便说一下，当我们听到背景中的警笛声时，那总是让我想到纽约。
Lex Fridman (02:38:18) By the way, as we hear sirens in the background, that always makes me think of New York.
Dan Houser (02:38:21) 是的，当然。
Dan Houser (02:38:21) Yeah, of course.
Lex Fridman (02:38:22) 每当我在纽约… …总是有警笛声。
Lex Fridman (02:38:22) Whenever I’m in New York… …There’s always sirens.
Dan Houser (02:38:23) 蒸汽从地下冒出来，人们对你尖叫。我的意思是，在洛杉矶你也会遇到人们对你尖叫，至少。
Dan Houser (02:38:23) Steam coming out the floor, people screaming at you. I mean, you get people screaming at you in LA, at least.
Lex Fridman (02:38:29) 但更多的是…
Lex Fridman (02:38:29) But it’s more…
Dan Houser (02:38:30) 是的，更分散
Dan Houser (02:38:30) Yeah, it’s more spread out
Lex Fridman (02:38:31) …更分散，是的。
Lex Fridman (02:38:31) …spread out, yeah.
Dan Houser (02:38:31) 在这里你可以得到更多的安静。我热爱那种活力。你知道，努力工作然后能够很晚出去吃饭很棒。而且，纽约对我来说真的是一次非常非常有趣的经历。
Dan Houser (02:38:31) You can get a bit more quiet here. And I love the energy. You know, it was great to work hard and then be able to go out for dinner late. And, and it, New York was really, really a fun experience for me.
Lex Fridman (02:38:42) 你与你兄弟Sam合作了许多年。作为创意头脑，作为一个人，你欣赏他什么？
Lex Fridman (02:38:42) You worked with your brother, Sam, for many years. What do you admire about him as a creative mind, as a human being?
Dan Houser (02:38:52) 他的驱动力和他早期对电子游戏能成为什么的远见。他是那个理解电子游戏会是下一个大事的人。我认为那是，你知道，在那些日子里人们会当面嘲笑我们这一点。所以有一个人如此坚定地说：“不，不，我们坚持路线，”然后有自信推动这些大项目，这很重要。
Dan Houser (02:38:52) His drive and his vision early on to see what video games could become. He was the one who understood that video games were the next big thing. And I think that was, you know, people would laugh in our face about that in those days. So to have someone that was strong and saying, “No, no, we stay the course,” and then having the confidence to push through with these big projects.
电子游戏的未来
Future of video games
Lex Fridman (02:39:20) 你对电子游戏的未来感到兴奋吗？
Lex Fridman (02:39:20) Are you excited for the future of video games?
Dan Houser (02:39:22) 是的。我想我们… 我，我… 完全。我仍然，我仍然看… 我很高兴你如此，我的意思是，你如此善意地谈论我们的工作，谈论我所做的事情和整个团队所做的事情。这很棒。但我只是看着它并看到问题。看到我们可以做得更好的地方。你知道，我认为总是，每次尝试都做得更好。而且我，你知道… 我们现在正在做的一些东西将会做到人们之前没有真正见过的事情。然后我想只是… 我认为游戏可以变得好得多。它们可以感觉更加生动。所有…
Dan Houser (02:39:22) Yeah. I think we’re… I, I… Completely. I still, I still look… I’m glad you’ve spoken so, I mean, you’ve spoken so kindly about our work, about the stuff that I did and the stuff the whole teams did. It’s wonderful. But I just look at it and see problems. And see things that we can make do better. You know, I think it was always, try each time to do it better. And I’ve got, you know… Some of the stuff we’re working on now is going to do stuff that people haven’t really seen before. And then I think it’s just… I think that games can get so much better. They can feel so much more alive. All the…
Dan Houser (02:39:58) 它们可以在叙事上做得更好，感觉更生动，感觉就像，你知道，它们的系统，所有东西，我们谈论过的组成部分。我们可以把每个部分都做得更好。…并把它们更好地结合在一起。我认为… 技术都… 对我来说，仍然感觉它才刚刚开始。你知道，它已经… 电影从1900年，1895年左右进化，直到他们在1930年左右发明了有声电影。不是那样。然后它找到了它的现代形式，然后到39年，他们开始拍彩色电影。而… 基本上，一部现代电影与1939年的电影没什么不同。但对于游戏，我仍然认为我们还有很长的路要走。技术-
Dan Houser (02:39:58) They can be better at storytelling and feel more alive and feel like, you know, their systems, all the stuff, the, the component parts we talked about. We can both make each of those parts better. …And tie them together better. I think it’s… The technology is all… To me, it still feels like it’s only just beginning. You know, it’s been, it’s been… Cinema evolved from like 1900, 1895, whenever it was, until they invented talking in 1930 or whenever that was. It’s not that. And then it’s kind of found its modern form, and then by ’39, they’re shooting in color. And that’s… Basically, a modern film is no different from a 1939 film. But with games, I still think we’ve got a long way to go. The tech-
Dan Houser (02:40:37) …技术有这么多不同的部分，它还有很长的路要走，你可以朝着各种有趣的方向发展。
Dan Houser (02:40:37) …there’s so many different parts of the tech that it’s still got a long way to go and you can go in all different fun directions.
Lex Fridman (02:40:43) 我只是希望… 而且我知道你说电子游戏的制作时间已经比可能需要的少多了，但我只是希望它能更快。比如，你已经让我…
Lex Fridman (02:40:43) I just wish… And I know you said video games take a lot less than they could, but I just wish it was faster. Like, you’ve already made me…
Dan Houser (02:40:52) 我也是
Dan Houser (02:40:52) Me too
Lex Fridman (02:40:52) …爱上了Absurdiverse，你已经让我爱上了Better Paradise，而现在我将要沮丧地坐着，意识到我们必须等待。当然，我可以读…
Lex Fridman (02:40:52) …fall in love with Absurdiverse, and you’ve made me fall in love with the Better Paradise, and now I am going to sit depressed, realizing we’ll have to wait. I could, of course, read…
Dan Houser (02:41:02) 嗯，我们应该很快会为Absurdiverse推出一些简短的卡通片，并在接下来的时期有更多东西推出。但是的，它只是需要，需要一点时间。你知道，我想，我的意思是，大片从开始到结束通常是四年以上。…你知道，一开始还有所有的法律事务，你知道吗？我们大概会一样。
Dan Houser (02:41:02) Well, we should have some little short cartoons coming out in a while for Absurdiverse and more stuff coming in the next period. But yeah, it just takes, it takes a little bit of time. You know, I think, I mean, big movies are four years plus from start to end. …You know, with all the legal stuff at the start, you know? We’ll be about the same.
Lex Fridman (02:41:21) 是的。某些电影从想法到完成，我的意思是，需要10年以上，一些伟大的作品，还有…
Lex Fridman (02:41:21) Yeah. And certain movies from idea to completion, I mean, take 10 plus years, some of the greats, and…
Dan Houser (02:41:27) 是的，我的意思是，经常。很多时候那只是开发过程。…那真的很… 有时感觉像是为了不制作东西而设计的。
Dan Houser (02:41:27) Yeah, I mean, often. A lot of that is just that development process. … That is really… Sometimes feels like it’s designed to not make stuff.
Lex Fridman (02:41:33) 一个更具体的建议，但关于电子游戏这个话题，对于可能梦想创造伟大游戏的独立电子游戏创作者，你会给出什么建议？他们受到《荒野大镖客》的启发，受到你所创造的所有令人难以置信的开放世界和叙事的启发。比如，怎样才能有机会做出那样的事情？
Lex Fridman (02:41:33) A bit more of a specific advice, but on the topic of video games, what advice would you give to to maybe independent video game creators that are dreaming of creating great games? They’re inspired by Red Dead, they’re inspired by all the incredible open worlds and narratives you’ve created. Like, how’s it possible to have a chance at doing something like that?
Dan Houser (02:41:56) 我的意思是，这是… 有两种方式。尝试自己和一个小团体低成本地做，或者加入一家你认为做法正确的公司，你知道吗？我认为这两种方式各有优点。我认为如果你想制作电影化的东西… 是的，人工智能会改变其中一些。但如果你想制作电影化的东西，你需要资源。你仍然可以制作一些非常有趣的东西，不那么电影化，但以某种方式是一种有趣的体验。但一旦你涉及到演员和动作捕捉以及那种大型体验，就会花费一些钱。因此，如果你想做那个，你必须想清楚你想在哪些公司工作，并搞清楚如何到那里工作。
Dan Houser (02:41:56) I mean, it’s part of… There’s two ways. Try and do it cheaply with yourself and a small group, or join a company that you think is doing it the right way, you know? And I think there’s upsides to either of those. I think if you want to make something that’s cinematic… Yeah, AI is going to change some of this. But if you want to make something that’s cinematic, you need resources. You can still make something that’s really interesting that isn’t super cinematic, but it’s an interesting experience in some ways. But the second you’re involving actors and motion capture and one of those big experiences, it’s going to cost some money. So therefore, if you want to do that, you’ve got to figure out what companies you want to work at and figure out how you get to work there.
Lex Fridman (02:42:31) 你对人工智能在视频生成、世界生成或开放世界辅助生成世界方面有所帮助抱有希望吗？
Lex Fridman (02:42:31) Do you have hope for AI helping with some of the video generation, some of the world generation, or some of the open-world assistance in generating the world?
Dan Houser (02:42:45) 是的，有限。绝对，如果使用正确，它将是一个很好的工具。如果使用不正确，将导致大量泛泛之作。你知道，我在游戏行业29年了，一直以来，那款能让制作游戏更简单、更便宜的技术即将出现，而发生的只是游戏变得更好，成本也高得多。所以我总是紧张地说：“终于，我们有了让生活更轻松的那款技术，”但看起来当以正确方式使用它时，它也许能做到。如果你用它来试图替代创造力，它将变得非常平庸。
Dan Houser (02:42:45) Yes, limited. Absolutely, if used correctly, it will be a great tool. If used incorrectly, it will lead to loads of generic stuff. You know, I’ve been in games for 29 years, and all the time, the piece of tech that’s going to make making games much easier and much cheaper is about to turn up, and all that’s happened is the games have got much better and way more expensive. So I’m always nervous about saying, “Finally, we have that bit of tech that makes our lives easier,” but it looks as if it might be able to do that when you use it in the right way. If you use it to try and substitute for creativity, it’s going to be really generic.
Lex Fridman (02:43:19) 一个大的、荒谬的问题：我们在这里进行的这一切，生命，存在的意义是什么？我们为什么在这里？
Lex Fridman (02:43:19) A big, ridiculous question: What’s the meaning of this whole thing we have going on here, of life, of existence? Why are we here?
Dan Houser (02:43:29) 观察宇宙。最容易说得通的答案是，我们由宇宙设计来观察它自己，并以有趣的方式评论它。
Dan Houser (02:43:29) To watch the universe. The easiest plausible answer is we are designed by the universe to watch itself and to comment on it in interesting ways.
Lex Fridman (02:43:39) 持续地以越来越有趣的方式。爱在其中扮演什么角色？
Lex Fridman (02:43:39) Consistently more and more interesting ways. What role does love play as part of that?
Dan Houser (02:43:46) 它是唯一可能让它值得做的事情。其他一切，一切物质的东西，都是无关紧要的。所以唯一有价值的是这些非物质的东西。你知道，我确实认为形而上学对我来说总是胜过物理学。
Dan Houser (02:43:46) It’s the only thing that makes it possibly worth doing. Everything else, everything material, is irrelevant. So the only things of value are these immaterial things. You know, I do think metaphysics always trumps physics for me.
Lex Fridman (02:44:03) 那么，Dan，从我心底里，说到爱，谢谢你。
Lex Fridman (02:44:03) Well, Dan, from the bottom of my heart, speaking of love, thank you.
Dan Houser (02:44:07) 真是荣幸。谢谢你，伙计。
Dan Houser (02:44:07) What a pleasure. Thank you, man.
Lex Fridman (02:44:09) 感谢你为这个世界创造的一切。我和数百万你游戏的铁杆粉丝永远心存感激。我知道有很多人想对你说谢谢。
Lex Fridman (02:44:09) Thank you for everything you’ve created in this world. Me and millions of diehard fans of your games are forever grateful. I know there’s a lot of people that would like to say thank you to you.
Dan Houser (02:44:19) 澄清一下，因为我总是喜欢说得很清楚… …从来不是我一个人。总是我和真正有才华、做了惊人事情的人坐在一起。
Dan Houser (02:44:19) Just to be clear, because I always like to make this very clear… …It was never me. It was always me sat alongside people with actual real talent who did amazing things.
Lex Fridman (02:44:28) 嗯，我希望你继续保持自我批判，并在世界上创造棒极了的作品。我们迫不及待地想要继续探索你创造的世界。非常感谢你今天来聊天，兄弟。
Lex Fridman (02:44:28) Well, I hope you keep being self-critical and creating awesome stuff in the world. And we can’t wait to keep exploring the worlds you create. Thank you so much for talking today, brother.
Dan Houser (02:44:41) 谢谢你邀请我。真是荣幸。
Dan Houser (02:44:41) Thank you for having me. What a privilege.
Lex Fridman (02:44:43) 感谢收听这次与Dan Houser的对话。要支持这个播客，请查看描述中的赞助商，在那里你也可以找到联系我、提问、获得反馈等的链接。现在让我留给你一些欧内斯特·海明威的话，Dan和我最喜欢的作家之一：“世界击垮每一个人，之后，许多人在被击垮的地方变得坚强。” 感谢收听。希望下次再见。
Lex Fridman (02:44:43) Thanks for listening to this conversation with Dan Houser. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, get feedback, and so on. And now let me leave you with some words from Ernest Hemingway, one of Dan’s and my favorite writers: “The world breaks everyone, and afterward, many are strong at the broken places.” Thank you for listening. I hope to see you next time.