书童按：本篇是丹·豪瑟（Dan Houser）于2025年11月接受Lex Fridman的播客采访实录，丹是是一位传奇的视频游戏创作者，Rockstar Games（R星）的联合创始人，其创作的《侠盗猎车手》和《荒野大镖客》系列，长期以来被奉为神作，脍炙人口。其采访中涉及_等话题，精彩绝伦，令人击节称赞。初稿采用DeepSeek机器翻译，经自动化中英混排，书童仅做简单校对及批注。原稿中英文混排5万余字，书童将分为Part1-3发出，本篇是第三部分，以飨诸君。
| **丹·豪瑟：GTA、荒野大镖客、Rockstar、Absurd与游戏的未来 | 莱克斯·弗里德曼播客** |
| **Dan Houser: GTA, Red Dead Redemption, Rockstar, Absurd & Future of Gaming | Lex Fridman Podcast** |
开场白
Introduction
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:01:17) 以下是与丹·豪瑟的对话，他是一位传奇的视频游戏创作者，Rockstar Games 的联合创始人，也是《侠盗猎车手》和《荒野大镖客》系列背后的创意力量，这些系列包括一些有史以来最畅销和最伟大的游戏。《荒野大镖客1》和《荒野大镖客2》都拥有视频游戏史上最深刻、最复杂、最令人心碎的角色和故事情节。丹已经创办了一家新公司，Absurdventures，很棒的名字，它正在以多种形式创造一些令人难以置信的新世界，包括书籍、漫画、音频系列，是的，还有视频游戏。
Lex Fridman (00:01:17) The following is a conversation with Dan Houser, a legendary video game creator, co-founder of Rockstar Games, and the creative force behind Grand Theft Auto and Red Dead Redemption series, which includes some of the best-selling games of all time and some of the greatest games of all time. Both Red Dead Redemption 1 and 2 have some of the deepest, most complex, and heart-wrenching characters and storylines ever created in video games. Dan has started a new company, Absurdventures, great name, that is creating some incredible new worlds in multiple forms, including books, comic books, audio series, and yes, video games.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:02:01) 其中包括《更好的天堂》，这是一个具有超级人工智能的反乌托邦近未来世界；《美国闹剧》，一个极度混乱、暴力、黑暗、讽刺的世界；以及《荒诞宇宙》，一个喜剧动作冒险世界。我对探索所有这三个世界都感到兴奋。我曾在丹创造的世界中度过了数百个小时，所以这次对话对我来说是莫大的荣幸。除此之外，我和丹在之后和这些天里聊了很多，他真的是一个很好的人。我简直不知道该说什么好。我觉得我是世界上最幸运的孩子。这里是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。要支持它，请查看描述中的赞助商，在那里你也可以找到联系我、提问、反馈等的链接。
Lex Fridman (00:02:01) That includes A Better Paradise, which is a dystopian near-future world with a super intelligent AI, American Caper, which is an insanely chaotic, violent, dark, satirical world, and Absurdiverse, which is a comedic action-adventure world. I’m excited to explore all three of these. I have spent hundreds of hours in worlds that Dan has helped create, so this conversation was an incredible honor for me. And on top of that, Dan and I talked a lot after and in the days since, and he has been just a wonderful human being. I’m just at a loss of words. I feel like the luckiest kid in the world. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:02:58) 现在，亲爱的朋友们，有请丹·豪瑟。
Lex Fridman (00:02:58) And now, dear friends, here’s Dan Houser.
有史以来最伟大的电影
Greatest films of all time
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:03:03) 你帮助创造了视频游戏史上一些最令人难以置信的角色、故事和开放世界。但当你成长于70年代末和80年代时，开放世界视频游戏还不存在。所以你曾将文学和电影归为早期的灵感来源。那么，如果可以的话，我们先谈谈电影。
Lex Fridman (00:03:03) You’ve helped create some of the most incredible characters, stories, and open worlds in video game history. But when you grew up in the late ’70s and ’80s, open-world video games wasn’t a thing. So you’ve credited literature and film as early inspiration. So let’s talk about film first, if we can.
丹·豪瑟 (00:03:23) 当然。
Dan Houser (00:03:23) Sure.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:03:24) 对你来说，哪些电影可以算作有史以来最伟大的电影，也许是那些对你影响深远的电影？我的意思是，《教父》？
Lex Fridman (00:03:24) What to you are some of the candidates for the greatest films of all time, maybe films that were highly influential on you? I mean, Godfather.
丹·豪瑟 (00:03:32) 嗯，对我来说，可能是《教父2》超过《教父1》，但两部我都爱。但我喜欢《教父2》中分割开的故事。作为一个移民，我曾经住在苏豪区，我喜欢小意大利的部分，我也喜欢西西里的部分。所以我认为……而且埃利斯岛那段简直是所有电影中最好的镜头之一。当你看到小维托出现在埃利斯岛，你看那个镜头，太棒了。它给你一种非常好的电影感，让你感受到抵达美国一定是怎样的。
Dan Houser (00:03:32) Well, I think for me, probably Godfather II more than Godfather I, but I love both of them. But I love the divided story in Godfather II. And as a migrant, I used to live in Soho, I love the bits in Little Italy, and I love the sections in Sicily. So I think… And the Ellis Island bit is just one of the best shots in all of cinema. When you see little Vito turning up in Ellis Island and you get that shot, it’s amazing. It gives you a really good cinematic sense of what it must have been like to arrive in America.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:04:04) 你认为《教父》的伟大有多少归功于剧本？有多少归功于摄影，又有多少归功于表演？你有德尼罗，还有年轻的帕西诺。
Lex Fridman (00:04:04) How much of the greatness of Godfather do you think is the writing? How much is the cinematography and how much is the acting? You got De Niro, you got young Pacino.
丹·豪瑟 (00:04:14) 嗯，科波拉是从编剧开始的，所以我认为他写了，至少是合写了剧本。所以这几乎是编剧和导演变成了一回事。但这是那种电影，两部都是那种电影，我当时在想这个关于完美电影的想法，一切都好，表演是开创性的，剧本是开创性的，音乐是开创性的，镜头如此令人难忘，场景，你知道，定义了你对事物的看法。想到黑手党而不想到《教父》是不可能的。
Dan Houser (00:04:14) Well, Coppola started as a screenwriter, so I think he wrote, at least co-wrote the script. So it’s almost like the writing and directing almost become the same thing. But it’s one of those films, both of them are those films, which I was thinking about this idea of a perfect film where everything’s good, where the acting’s seminal, where the writing’s seminal, where the music is seminal, where the shots are so memorable, where the scenes, you know, define what you think about things. It’s impossible to think about the mafia and not think about The Godfather.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:04:43) 那节奏呢？它有点慢。你有，像《2001太空漫游》这样的电影，很慢。
Lex Fridman (00:04:43) What about the pacing? It is a bit slow. You have, you have movies like 2001 Space Odyssey, slow.
丹·豪瑟 (00:04:49) 是的。
Dan Houser (00:04:49) Yes.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:04:49) 过去，在我的时代，节奏是慢的。
Lex Fridman (00:04:49) It used to be, back in my day, it used to be slow.
丹·豪瑟 (00:04:53) 生活变快了。生活只是，你知道……我想，当我们从70年代进入80年代，再进入90年代，人们看了太多电影，他们只是开始把电影剪辑得更快。人们如此理解电影叙事，以至于你可以把事情做得快得多，你可以展示一个表情，仅仅那样就意味着你意识到那个人会背叛另一个人。他们只是把电影剪辑得快得多。但我挺喜欢这种慢。我觉得如今有了现代的高质量电视，你不一定非要一口气看完这些电影，尤其是当你重看的时候。所以它们又长又慢并不困扰我。
Dan Houser (00:04:53) Life got faster. Life just got, you know… As, I think, as we moved from the ’70s into the ’80s, into the ’90s, people had seen so many films, they just started to edit films faster. And people understood cinematic storytelling so much that you could do things much quicker, you could show a look and just that meant you realized that person was going to betray the other person. They just edited films much quicker. But I quite like the slowness. I think these days with modern, you know, high-quality televisions, you don’t have to necessarily watch these films in one sitting, particularly when you’re rewatching them. So it doesn’t bother me that they’re long and slow.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:05:28) 说到变快，生活变快，我相信另一部有影响力的电影是《好家伙》，斯科塞斯的。那个更快，对吧？
Lex Fridman (00:05:28) Speaking of faster, life getting faster, I’m sure another influential movie was Goodfellas, Scorsese. That’s faster, right?
丹·豪瑟 (00:05:37) 是的。
Dan Houser (00:05:37) Yes.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:05:38) 犯罪和幽默的混合。
Lex Fridman (00:05:38) A mixture of crime and humor.
丹·豪瑟 (00:05:40) 而且在某些方面，几乎像一个开放世界游戏，因为它是生活的一个片段。你看到……我想那可能在80年代末、90年代初比任何其他电影都更多地改变了电影。而且它如此标志性。在某些方面，我更喜欢《赌城风云》，但真正的创新在《好家伙》。我喜欢《赌城风云》的结尾，你知道，画外音的运用，你看待他们既是罪犯又是普通人的方式，它改变了一切。我的意思是，《黑道家族》显然完全受到了《好家伙》的启发。
Dan Houser (00:05:40) And almost like an open-world game in some ways, in that it’s this slice of life. You see… I think that probably changed cinema at the tail end of the ’80s, early ’90s, more than any other film. And it’s so iconic. In some ways, I prefer Casino, but the invention is really in Goodfellas. I love the end of Casino, you know, the use of voiceover, the way you saw them being criminals and being normal people, you know, it changed everything. I mean, The Sopranos obviously is completely inspired by Goodfellas.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:06:12) 是的，《赌城风云》首先有莎朗·斯通这个角色。我是说，一切。
Lex Fridman (00:06:12) Yeah, Casino has, first of all, the character of Sharon Stone. I mean, everything.
丹·豪瑟 (00:06:17) 造型，服装…… …音乐。
Dan Houser (00:06:17) The look, the clothes… …The music.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:06:20) 我会说电影中我最难忘的时刻之一是沙漠中的会面。我是说，仅仅是那之间逐渐建立的戏剧性……
Lex Fridman (00:06:20) I would say one of the most memorable moments in film for me is the meeting in the desert. I mean, just the drama building up to that between…
丹·豪瑟 (00:06:28) 再挖一个洞。
Dan Houser (00:06:28) Dig another hole.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:06:29) 是的。环境，城市，说到开放世界和从城市创造一个角色。这是伟大的拉斯维加斯电影之一。
Lex Fridman (00:06:29) Yeah. The environment, the city, speaking of open world and creating a character from the city. It’s one of the great Vegas films.
丹·豪瑟 (00:06:36) 我认为是最伟大的拉斯维加斯电影。有些部分我一直很喜欢。最后，当一切尘埃落定时，一方面你看到罗伯特·德尼罗的角色，他仍然擅长赚钱，所以他们让他回归正常生活。但接着你看到那个精彩的场景，所有来自老家的黑帮头目，他们在讨论所有这些可能或不可能牵连他们的人。然后有一句极其冷酷的台词，其中一个人，他们在考虑那个老的，你知道，我想是赌场经理，然后其中一个人就说，“啊，依我看，何必冒险呢？”接着下一秒，他就被枪杀了。对吧？其中的残酷性简直太精彩了。
Dan Houser (00:06:36) I think the great Vegas film. There are bits that I always love. At the end, when everything’s wrapping up, and on the one hand you see the Robert De Niro character, he’s still good at making money, so they let him return to normal life. But then you get that brilliant scene when all of the mob bosses from back home, they’re discussing all these people who may or may not be able to implicate them. And then there’s that incredibly cold line where one of them, they’re thinking about the old, you know, I think it’s the casino manager, and one of them just goes, “Ah, the way I see it, why take a chance?” And then the next thing, he’s just shot. Right? The brutality of it all is just brilliant.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:07:13) 我不知道，关于拉斯维加斯电影，我可能得不同意你。至少有一些竞争者。你有，什么，尼古拉斯·凯奇的《离开拉斯维加斯》？我的意思是，和一个妓女相爱。你也写过一些伟大的犯罪故事。
Lex Fridman (00:07:13) I don’t know, I probably have to disagree with you on Vegas. There are at least some competitors. You got, what, Nicolas Cage leaving Las Vegas? I mean, falling in love with a prostitute. You also, you’ve written some of the great crime stories ever.
丹·豪瑟 (00:07:25) 谢谢。
Dan Houser (00:07:25) Thank you.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:07:26) 从某种意义上说，里面也有爱情故事。你谈到过…… …自己也有点浪漫。至少非常欣赏文学中爱情故事的深度。而在一个酒鬼和一个妓女之间有一种黑暗的爱情故事。你凭那个得了奥斯卡。
Lex Fridman (00:07:26) And in some sense, there are love stories in there. And you’ve talked about… …Being a bit of a romantic yourself. Appreciating the depth of love stories in literature at the very least. And there is a dark kind of love story between an alcoholic and a prostitute. You got an Oscar for that.
丹·豪瑟 (00:07:46) 我想他是因为那个得的，不是吗？
Dan Houser (00:07:46) I think he did for that, didn’t he?
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:07:47) 还有《恐惧拉斯维加斯》里对毒品世界的夸张描绘。那是一个有趣的例子。
Lex Fridman (00:07:47) Plus there’s the caricature of the drug world of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. That’s an interesting one.
丹·豪瑟 (00:07:52) 我非常爱那本书。我大概十七八岁的时候对它很着迷。我喜欢那部电影，但我更喜欢书。
Dan Houser (00:07:52) I love the book so much. I was obsessed by it when I was about 17, 18. And I enjoyed the film, but I preferred the book.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:07:59) 有没有亨特·S·汤普森式的人物进入过你的任何故事？
Lex Fridman (00:07:59) Has a Hunter S. Thompson type of character ever made it into any of your stories?
丹·豪瑟 (00:08:03) 没有，但我们正在做的项目之一，有一个有点像亨特·S·汤普森的英国版本，如果他同时还是个菜农的话。我喜欢那种形象。但这有点……很难。如果你把他做成美国人，就很难不直接成为亨特·S·汤普森。
Dan Houser (00:08:03) No, but one of the things we’re working on now, there’s sort of an English version of Hunter S. Thompson if he was also a market gardener. I love that persona. But it’s kind of… it’s hard. If you make him American, it’s hard for it not just to be Hunter S. Thompson.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:08:19) 这是《美国闹剧》里的吗？
Lex Fridman (00:08:19) Is this an American caper?
丹·豪瑟 (00:08:21) 不是，是在我们正在开发的一个动画系列里，在我们正在制作的一个叫《荒诞宇宙》的喜剧世界里，是其中的一个故事。
Dan Houser (00:08:21) No, it’s in this animated show we’re developing in this sort of comedy world we’re working on called Absurdiverse, and it’s in one of the stories in that.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:08:29) 什么是《荒诞宇宙》？
Lex Fridman (00:08:29) What is Absurdiverse?
丹·豪瑟 (00:08:31) 《荒诞宇宙》是一个我们正在开发的喜剧宇宙，它将是一个开放世界视频游戏，然后是一些松散相关的故事，我们将制作成动画电视剧或可能的动画电影。我们还在思考这些。我们目前正在圣拉斐尔构建这个游戏，还处于早期阶段，但看起来非常令人兴奋。它试图……嗯，试图制作一款感觉有点像鲜活情景喜剧的游戏。
Dan Houser (00:08:31) Absurdiverse is a comedy universe we’re developing that will be an open-world video game and then some loosely adjacent stories that we’re going to make as animated TV shows or possibly animated movies. We’re still thinking that all through. And we’re building the game up in San Rafael at the moment, and it’s early days, but it’s looking very exciting. And it’s trying to be… like, trying to make a game that feels a little bit like a living sitcom.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:09:02) 边缘有一些戏剧性和悲剧性吗，还是纯粹的喜剧？
Lex Fridman (00:09:02) Is there some drama and tragedy at the edges or is it pure comedy?
丹·豪瑟 (00:09:06) 我希望它有喜剧、愤世嫉俗、温情、戏剧和一些有趣的人生教训。否则，你不可能在40小时里只有笑话，那行不通。
Dan Houser (00:09:06) I hope it’s got comedy, cynicism, heart, drama, and some amusing life lessons. Otherwise, you can’t just have jokes for 40 hours, it won’t work.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:09:17) 好的，所以喜剧需要一些黑暗面。
Lex Fridman (00:09:17) Okay, so comedy needs some darkness.
丹·豪瑟 (00:09:19) 嗯，我认为它需要故事。本世纪我最喜欢的喜剧之一是《办公室》，因为它非常有趣，也因为它在愤世嫉俗之下有叙事和温情。我认为有了叙事，你就能在笑话之外获得驱动力。
Dan Houser (00:09:19) Well, I think it needs story. One of my favorite comedies of this century is The Office because it was incredibly funny, but also because it had narrative and heart underneath the cynicism. I think with narrative, you get a drive alongside jokes.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:09:34) 而且会有一个开放世界的视频游戏- …在那个世界里。什么时候？
Lex Fridman (00:09:34) And there’s going to be an open-world video game- … in that world. When?
丹·豪瑟 (00:09:39) 两、三、四年吧。还在考虑中。
Dan Houser (00:09:39) Two, three, four years. Still thinking that through.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:09:42) 那么从一个想法到一个视频游戏完成的这个过程是怎样的？为什么把它做对需要这么长时间？
Lex Fridman (00:09:42) So what’s the process of getting from the idea to the end of a video game? Why does it take so long to get it right?
丹·豪瑟 (00:09:48) 这是个有趣的问题。我认为它们构建的规模，你可以反过来问：为什么这么快？你是一次性地构建一个世界、一座城市和贯穿其中的40小时娱乐。这些东西是巨大的四维马赛克，极其复杂，并且必须以多种不同的方式运作。我认为我们在时间线上算是相当激进的了。
Dan Houser (00:09:48) That’s an interesting question. I think the scale at which they’re built, you could argue it the other way: why is it so quick? You’re really building, in one go, a world, a city, and 40 hours of entertainment cut through it. These things are massive four-dimensional mosaics that are intensely complicated and have to work in lots of different ways. I think that’s us being kind of aggressive on the timeline.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:10:15) 我们从一个题外话转到另一个题外话…… …但我必须回到一些电影上。让我列出一些我最喜欢的。首先，你说你喜欢伟大的战争书籍…… …和电影。所以我们必须提一下奥利弗·斯通的《野战排》和《现代启示录》，至少对我来说。
Lex Fridman (00:10:15) We’re taking a tangent upon a tangent upon a tangent… …But I have to return to some films. Let me just list a few of my favorites. So, first of all, you said you love great war books… …And movies. So we have to throw in Platoon from Oliver Stone and Apocalypse Now, for me at least.
丹·豪瑟 (00:10:34) 当然。
Dan Houser (00:10:34) Of course.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:10:35) 还有更多的犯罪、快节奏的犯罪电影。像《疤面煞星》。我也爱《真实的罗曼史》。
Lex Fridman (00:10:35) There’s more crime, fast-moving crime movies. Like Scarface. I also love True Romance.
丹·豪瑟 (00:10:42) 爱《真实的罗曼史》。可能是最好的……有史以来最好的剧本之一。
Dan Houser (00:10:42) Love True Romance. Possibly the best… one of the best scripts ever written.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:10:46) 剧本当然是- …昆汀·塔伦蒂诺写的。你喜欢《真实的罗曼史》什么？我想有时候，取决于当天的心情，取决于酒吧和我喝了多少酒，我会说《真实的罗曼史》是有史以来最好的电影。
Lex Fridman (00:10:46) Written, of course- … by Quentin Tarantino. What do you love about True Romance? I think sometimes, depending on the day, depending on the bar and how much alcohol I had, I will say True Romance is the best movie ever made.
丹·豪瑟 (00:10:59) 《真实的罗曼史》超级有趣。托尼·斯科特是个非常好的导演，所以它节奏把握得很好。很有趣，完全不可信，但你真的很关心那些角色。它是那种，你知道，这个世界显然不存在，但你感觉它存在。角色比生活更夸张。对话令人难以置信。你可以坐在那里看他们聊一整天。而且，你知道，它很有趣。你就是想生活在那样的世界里。我在想，比如，你喜欢电影的什么？是那种置身于一个世界的想法。它们不是真的。它们从来不是真的，但你想进入这些人们发明的虚构世界。
Dan Houser (00:10:59) True Romance is super fun. Tony Scott was a really good director, so it moves at a really good speed. It’s funny, it’s completely unbelievable, but you really care about the characters. It’s the kind of, you know, this world that obviously doesn’t exist, but you feel it does exist. The characters are larger than life. The dialogue is unbelievable. You could just sit and watch them talk all day long. And, you know, it’s amusing. You just want to live in that world. I was thinking about, like, what do you like about films? It’s the idea to be in a world. They’re not real. They’re never real, but you want to be in these fake worlds that people have invented.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:11:34) 我想你说过，创造一个伟大世界的关键在于拥有大量的角色。我认为那部电影就是一个很好的例子。我是说，你有克里斯托弗·沃肯那段传奇的超级种族主义对话。
Lex Fridman (00:11:34) And I think you said that what makes a great world is having a large cast of characters. And I think that movie is a good example. I mean, you have Christopher Walken with the sort of legendary super racist discussion.
丹·豪瑟 (00:11:45) 是的。长篇大论。
Dan Houser (00:11:45) Yeah. Rant.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:11:46) 长篇大论。
Lex Fridman (00:11:46) Rant.
丹·豪瑟 (00:11:46) 丹尼斯·霍珀简直就是个梦想中的老爸。
Dan Houser (00:11:46) Dennis Hopper is just sort of a dream dad.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:11:48) 是的。是的，梦想老爸。仅仅是那段互动就成为了传奇。你甚至还有布拉德·皮特演一个沙发上的大麻烟鬼。
Lex Fridman (00:11:48) Yeah. Yeah, dream dad. And just that interaction is legendary. You got even Brad Pitt as a pothead on the couch.
丹·豪瑟 (00:11:57) 加里·奥德曼。
Dan Houser (00:11:57) Gary Oldman.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:11:57) 加里·奥德曼。
Lex Fridman (00:11:57) Gary Oldman.
丹·豪瑟 (00:11:58) 演一个拉斯塔法里信徒。
Dan Houser (00:11:58) As a rasta.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:11:59) 是的，你还有一个，我是说，一个真实的爱情故事。就像，一个真实的、真诚的、纯粹的爱情在任何语境下都能生存。
Lex Fridman (00:11:59) Yeah, and you have, I mean, a real love story. Like, a real, genuine, pure love can survive in any context.
丹·豪瑟 (00:12:08) 而且它很甜蜜。他们在那部电影里的爱情故事非常甜蜜。很讨人喜欢。
Dan Houser (00:12:08) And it’s just sweet. Their love story is very sweet in that film. It’s endearing.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:12:12) 埃尔维斯是一个角色。这有点像迷你GTA类型的游戏。有同样的美感，喜剧，爱情。
Lex Fridman (00:12:12) Elvis is a character. It’s kind of like a mini GTA type game. Some of the same beauty, the comedy, the love.
丹·豪瑟 (00:12:19) 是的，而且它还融合了《呆头鹅》。感觉有点像那个，因为有埃尔维斯这个角色。
Dan Houser (00:12:19) Yeah, and it’s all crossed with Play It Again, Sam. It sort of feels a bit like that with the Elvis character.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:12:23) 那最伟大的战争电影呢？对你来说是什么？
Lex Fridman (00:12:23) What about the greatest war film? What would it be for you?
丹·豪瑟 (00:12:27) 最伟大的战争电影？如果我想要严肃点的，会是一部俄罗斯电影叫《过来看看》。它可能是有史以来最紧张的电影。如果我想要稍微不那么严肃的，是《现代启示录》，而且我总是想看原始剪辑版。我不喜欢重新剪辑的版本。我喜欢最初的首次发行版。我认为它更紧凑、更流畅，效果最好。
Dan Houser (00:12:27) Greatest war film? If I’m feeling serious, it would be a Russian film called Come and See. It’s probably the most intense film ever made. And if I’m feeling slightly less serious, Apocalypse Now, and I would always want to watch the original cut. I don’t prefer the re-edits. I like the original first release. I think it’s tighter and slicker and works the best.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:12:49) 是的，当然，《现代启示录》是一次进入黑暗，我想，和疯狂的迷幻之旅。
Lex Fridman (00:12:49) Yeah, of course, Apocalypse Now is this hallucinatory journey into darkness, I think, and madness.
丹·豪瑟 (00:12:54) 是的，但从第一个- …场景开始，它就是一个接一个的惊人场面，同样，令人难以置信的角色，精彩的对话。
Dan Houser (00:12:54) Yeah, but from your first- …scene onwards, it’s just got these amazing set piece after set piece and again, incredible characters, brilliant dialogue.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:13:04) 一些关于战争的最伟大的电影揭示了战争并非表面看起来那样，并且有不同方式来表达这一点。你谈到过不同的书。《细细的红线》是另一本书…… …和电影，展示了这一点。
Lex Fridman (00:13:04) Some of the greatest films about war reveal that war is not what it seems, and there are different ways of doing that. And you’ve talked about different books. The Thin Red Line is another book… … And movie that shows that.
丹·豪瑟 (00:13:19) 是的，我在读这本书之前好几年看了电影，当时我不理解这部电影。然后我读了书，又读了很多关于电影剪辑的资料，我明白了为什么我不理解这部电影，那是因为这部电影没有意义。它拍得很美，音乐是有史以来最好的电影配乐之一。但他们把两场不同的战斗剪辑成了一场战斗，在书里这两场战斗相隔了很久，他们却拼凑起来……我想他们几乎是逐字逐句地拍摄了这本书。那会是一部六小时的电影，然后剪辑成了这个印象派的东西，非常美丽，但在叙事上最后未必说得通。但这电影仍然非常美。
Dan Houser (00:13:19) Yeah, and I watched the movie years before I read the book, and I didn’t understand the movie. And then I read the book, and I read a lot about the editing of the movie, and I understood why I didn’t understand the movie, and that’s because the movie makes no sense. It is beautifully shot, and the music is one of the best film scores of all time. But they edited two different battle scenes into one battle in a way that they’re spread apart by ages in the book to assemble… I think they filmed the book pretty much verbatim. It would’ve been like a six-hour movie, then edited this impressionistic thing that’s incredibly beautiful but doesn’t necessarily make narrative sense at the end of it. But the film is still very beautiful.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:14:00) 至于西部片，最伟大的是哪部？《黄金三镖客》、《不可饶恕》？那些对我来说，甚至可能是《被解救的姜戈》。你提到过《虎豹小霸王》。
Lex Fridman (00:14:00) And in terms of Westerns, what’s the greatest? The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, Unforgiven? Those are for me, maybe even Django Unchained. You’ve mentioned Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
丹·豪瑟 (00:14:09) 对我来说，我想是两部电影，大概出自同一年：《虎豹小霸王》和《日落黄沙》。
Dan Houser (00:14:09) I think for me it’s two films from, I think, pretty much the same year: Butch Cassidy and The Wild Bunch.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:14:15) 我爱罗伯特·雷德福，愿他安息。
Lex Fridman (00:14:15) I love Robert Redford, rest in peace.
丹·豪瑟 (00:14:17) 那部电影，没有《虎豹小霸王》简直无法想象任何兄弟电影。
Dan Houser (00:14:17) That film, it’s just impossible to imagine any buddy film without Butch Cassidy.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:14:23) 对你来说也是保罗·纽曼、罗伯特·雷德福和克林特·伊斯特伍德吗？这对你写《荒野大镖客》有影响吗？
Lex Fridman (00:14:23) Is it Paul Newman, Robert Redford, and Clint Eastwood for you also? Has that impacted your writing on Red Dead?
丹·豪瑟 (00:14:29) 我喜欢《不可饶恕》，但事实是，关于《荒野大镖客》，我小时候看过很多西部片。我爸爸看了很多西部片。电视上总在放。你知道，我觉得自己对西部片相当了解。然后，你知道，我得开始为了工作考虑写一个。我故意没有狂看西部片。我尽量不看更多的西部片，只是思考我喜欢它们什么，不喜欢什么，什么样的解读在今天行得通，并且在游戏的框架内行得通。我认为《荒野大镖客1》是一部稍微传统一点的西部片。而在做了那个之后，我试图让《荒野大镖客2》走向一个不同的方向，让它感觉像是一个有价值的续作。它不仅仅是更多相同的东西。
Dan Houser (00:14:29) I love Unforgiven, but the truth is with Red Dead, I’d seen a lot of Westerns as a kid. My dad watched lots of Westerns. They were always on TV. You know, I felt I knew quite a bit about Westerns. And then, you know, I had to start thinking about writing one for work. And I deliberately did not binge on Westerns. I tried to watch no more Westerns and just think about what I liked about them, what I didn’t like about them, what would be a take that would work today and would work within the confines of a game. And I think Red Dead 1 was a slightly more traditional Western. And then having done that, I tried to take Red Dead 2 in a different direction so that it felt like a worthy successor. It didn’t just feel like more of the same.
制作视频游戏
Making video games
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:15:17) 从电影到视频游戏，你是什么时候第一次爱上视频游戏的？文学是第一爱好？
Lex Fridman (00:15:17) From movies to video games, when did you first fall in love with video games? Literature was the first love?
丹·豪瑟 (00:15:24) 我是说，电影……不，电影。
Dan Houser (00:15:24) I mean, film… No, films.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:15:26) 电影。
Lex Fridman (00:15:26) Films.
丹·豪瑟 (00:15:26) 电影一直是，一直是……嗯，我小时候最先爱上的就是电影。我大概八岁才开始正经读书。在那很久以前我就在看电影了。
Dan Houser (00:15:26) Films was always the, was always… Well, what I loved first as a kid was films. I began reading books properly aged about eight. I was watching films long before that.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:15:39) 很好。
Lex Fridman (00:15:39) Nice.
丹·豪瑟 (00:15:40) 然后可能总是在这两者之间来回，看更喜欢哪个。我觉得它们擅长不同的东西。游戏，我玩过，而且，最重要的是，小时候看过很多游戏，作为一个小孩子，你知道，看别人玩。我显然喜欢游戏的核心功能，就是你按一个按钮，就会发生点什么。它们有反应，是活的，这很吸引人。然后游戏的竞争角度也很有趣，或者你知道，打败这个，打败那个，赢得这个。那也很有趣。有时候甚至到了痴迷的程度。你知道，我记得有一段时间，在我本应该学习的时候，完全沉迷于Game Boy上的俄罗斯方块，持续了几个月。
Dan Houser (00:15:40) And then probably it was always bouncing between the two, which I preferred. I think they’re good at different things. Games, I played and, above all, watched a lot of games as a kid, as being a young kid and, you know, other people playing them. And I obviously liked the core thing games do, which is you press a button and something happens. They’re responsive, they’re alive, and that’s captivating. And then the competitive angle of games is fun, or you know, beating this, beating that, winning this. That was fun as well. Sometimes obsessively so. You know, I remember being completely addicted at one point when I was, should have been studying, for months at a time, to Tetris on a Game Boy.
丹·豪瑟 (00:16:20) 你知道，我喜欢游戏，我喜欢互动性，我喜欢向这个数字世界的转变，这对我来说几乎是在大学一毕业就出现了。但我并不热爱它。然后当我真正开始制作游戏时，我才真正爱上了游戏，可能晚到像2001年。
Dan Houser (00:16:20) You know, I liked games and I liked interactivity and I liked the movement to this digital world that’s really emerged for me pretty much as soon as I left college. But I didn’t love it. And then I really fell in love with games when I was properly making them, probably as late as like 2001.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:16:40) 哦，哇。
Lex Fridman (00:16:40) Oh, wow.
丹·豪瑟 (00:16:41) 当我突然开始看到……首先，我的脑子，你知道，那是另一个故事了，但就是突然看到了它们能做到什么，可以成为什么，以及有机会成为参与制作这些东西的人之一是什么感觉，你知道，那感觉就像是真正在开辟通往未来的道路。我想那是我真正觉得，“这些太神奇了。”那是我真正爱上它的时候……我能在瞬间看到它，然后突然你就能创造整个体验了。所以那对我来说真的是那个时刻。
Dan Houser (00:16:41) And when I suddenly began to see… First of all, my mind, you know, that’s a whole another story, but just suddenly saw what they could do and could be and what this chance was to be one of the people involved in making these things that was this, you know, where you were really kind of breaking trail into the future, it felt like. And I think that was when I really went, “These are amazing.” And that’s when I really fell in love with… I could see it in moments and suddenly you could make this whole experience. So that was really the moment for me.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:17:12) 是的，当然，因为你是如此注重叙事的开放世界游戏的先驱。所以你没有太多先例。
Lex Fridman (00:17:12) Yeah, of course, because you were a pioneer of open world games that are so narrative driven. So it’s like you didn’t have too many examples.
丹·豪瑟 (00:17:21) 是的，在那之前是PS1甚至更早。游戏画面很差。你知道，你会觉得，“这是八个像素，是一辆车。”你知道，那不是一辆车。只是它们……你总是需要眯着眼睛，或者闭上一只眼睛，努力想象它就是他们告诉你的那个东西。它们都是关于，你知道，非常超现实的主题，因为你根本无法让它们接近现实。突然之间，我们能够……能够构建这些体验，你可以运行一个城市的模拟，它是三维的，感觉是活的。我们试图赋予它更多，至少是更多生命的幻觉。然后你看到你可以在三维中，或者，你知道，利用时间，在四维中讲述一个故事，这感觉非常鼓舞人心。
Dan Houser (00:17:21) Yeah, before that it was PS1 or even before that. Games looked terrible. You know, that you would be like, “It’s eight pixels, it’s a car.” You know, it was not a car. It was they just didn’t… It was always you were squinting and closing both your eyes and trying to imagine it was this thing you were told it was. And all they were about, you know, very surreal subject matter ’cause you couldn’t make them remotely real. And suddenly we had… were able to build these experiences where you could run a simulation of a city and it was in three dimensions and it felt alive. And we were trying to give it even more, at least the illusion of even more life. And yet you see you could tell a story in three or, you know, using time, in four dimensions, and that felt very inspiring.
GTA 3
GTA 3
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:18:07) 是的，我认为《GTA III》可能是有史以来最具影响力的游戏之一。它创造了一种开放世界的感觉。你认为创造那种感觉需要什么？你知道，有那些高耸的摩天大楼。有变化的交通灯。有一种感觉像是……首先，你有一种可以做任何事情的感觉，然后世界……对此作出反应…
Lex Fridman (00:18:07) Yeah, I think GTA III is probably one of the most influential games of all time. It created a feeling of an open world. What do you think it takes to create that feeling? You know, there were like these looming skyscrapers. There were the changing traffic lights. There’s the feeling like… First of all, you had a feeling you could do anything, and then the world was… Reacting to it…
丹·豪瑟 (00:18:33) 是的
Dan Houser (00:18:33) Yes
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:18:33) …以一种感觉不像预设好的方式。
Lex Fridman (00:18:33) … in a way that didn’t feel scripted.
丹·豪瑟 (00:18:34) 是的。而且它不是预设的。它是，它真的是非常、非常、非常简陋的人工智能。就像，它是一个你可以戳弄和推动看看会发生什么的模拟，我认为那是非常……那是两件事。一方面是这里有一个模拟，你可以随意摆弄，而这个模拟似乎有自己的个性。所以你可以推动并观察……世界会以某种方式推回给你……无论那意味着什么。然后另一件事就是这种……我认为它如此吸引人的原因之一也是这种想法：如果我什么都不做，世界仍然存在。
Dan Houser (00:18:34) Yes. And it wasn’t scripted. It was, it was really, really, really low-rent AI. Like, it was a simulation that you could prod and push and see what happened, and I think that was incredibly… It was two things. It was the fact that here was a simulation that you could mess about with and the simulation seemed to have a personality. So you could push and see… And the world would push you back to what… in whatever way that meant. And then the other thing was just this… I think that one of the reasons it was so captivating was also the idea of if I did nothing, the world still existed.
丹·豪瑟 (00:19:09) 或者我可以用一种相当被动的方式行动。我可以只听收音机，我可以看广告牌，我可以和行人交谈，而这个世界……嗯，不是在《GTA III》里，但到了《罪恶都市》，你就可以开始进行初步的交谈了。世界就在那里，存在着，所以这想法有点像我们后来在许多游戏中真正探索的，成为一个数字游客的想法。你知道，你身处这些世界中，你作为访客去到那里，它们几乎独立于你而存在。感觉当你出现时，世界已经在运行了。感觉不像是你启动了它。
Dan Houser (00:19:09) Or I could act in quite a passive way. I could just listen to the radio, I could look at billboards, I could talk to pedestrians, and the world… Well, not in GTA III, but by Vice City, you could begin rudimentary talking. And the world was there and existing, and so it was the idea of like almost something that really tried to explore in lots of games the idea of being a digital tourist. You know, you were in, you were in these worlds, and you went there as a visitor, and they existed almost independent of you. It felt like when you turned up, the world was running. It didn’t feel like you’d started it.
丹·豪瑟 (00:19:42) 当然，是你启动了它，但那种感觉，我认为，是人们发现非常吸引人的幻觉之一，就是我在一个，我身处一个既不存在又存在的世界里。
Dan Houser (00:19:42) Of course, you had started it, but that feeling, I think, was one of the things, the illusions that people found very captivating, was I’m in a, I’m in a world that both doesn’t exist and does exist.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:19:53) 所以有两个概念，我读到过，只是给它们命个名。一个是系统性视频游戏设计，即系统性游戏，另一个是沙盒视频游戏。系统性是从环境角度出发，这意味着这些相互关联的游戏规则和系统相互作用，产生涌现行为。而这种涌现行为创造了世界是活的感觉。
Lex Fridman (00:19:53) So there’s these two concepts that I was reading about, just to put names on them. One is systemic video game design, so systemic games, and the other is sandbox video games. And the systemic is from the environment perspective, which means that there are these interlocking game rules and systems that interact with each other and produce emergent behavior. And that emergent behavior is what creates a feeling like there’s a living world.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:20:22) 然后是沙盒方面，这是重叠但不同的，是从用户角度，从玩家角度，感觉你可以做任何事。当这两者结合在一起时，感觉你可以做任何事，以及感觉有一个世界也是满满的，也在做它想做的任何事，这就创造出一种不可思议的感觉，好像这个世界是活的。
Lex Fridman (00:20:22) And then the sandbox aspect, which is overlapping but different, is from the user perspective, from the player perspective, the feeling like you can do anything. And when those two things combine, the feeling like you can do anything and the feeling like there’s a world that’s full, that is also doing anything it wants, that creates this incredible feeling of, like, this world is alive.
丹·豪瑟 (00:20:49) 而我置身其中。
Dan Houser (00:20:49) And I’m in it.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:20:50) 而我置身其中。
Lex Fridman (00:20:50) And I’m in it.
丹·豪瑟 (00:20:50) 我认为这两者的结合是非常强大的。我认为《GTA III》，你知道，对我来说，它出现在我个人生活中一个非常有趣的时期，我能够真正地投入其中，可能是有生以来第一次专业地，实际上，看到我们能做到什么。我们真的开始触及表面，探索如何用内容填充这些世界，如何使这些内容有趣，并使所有内容相互交织？这样当你开始摆弄这些系统时，它们也会感觉有活力、有趣。
Dan Houser (00:20:50) And it’s the combination of those two things, I think, is very powerful. And I think with GTA III, you know, for me, it came at a really interesting time in my life personally, and I was very able to engage in it, probably for the first time professionally, actually, how we can do something. And we were really sort of scratching, began to scratch the surface on how do we fill these worlds with content, and how do we make that content interesting and make the content all interwoven? So as you start to mess with these systems, they also feel alive and interesting.
开放世界视频游戏
Open world video games
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:21:26) 在你的作品中，经常存在一种张力，介于开放世界的自由和叙事驱动的讲故事之间。我认为你经常，也许总是，把握好了平衡。那么是什么？每一方的价值是什么，你如何把握好平衡？
Lex Fridman (00:21:26) There’s often been a tension through your work between an open world, that freedom, and the narrative- …driven storytelling. And I think you’ve often, maybe always, gotten the balance right. So what is it? What is the value of each, and how do you get the balance right?
丹·豪瑟 (00:21:47) 嗯，我认为开放世界本身是相当有趣的。置身于一个世界并拥有完全自由就是很有趣。当然，我认为在不同时期，我们争论过，或者，你知道，我自己脑海里会和自己进行理论探讨，或者团队里的其他人会真正推动减少故事，减少故事。你知道，让整个事物有机地演变。你知道，让它全部是程序生成的。让它全部从你的行为中演变出来。对我来说，我总是会回到这一点：“故事，如果做得好，可以非常有吸引力，它给你一些结构，一些事情做，并且从游戏设计的角度帮助你解锁功能。”
Dan Houser (00:21:47) Well, I think the open world is intrinsically pretty fun. It’s just fun to be in a world and have complete freedom. And certainly, I think at various points, we debated or, you know, I’d have theoretical discussions in my own head with myself, or other people in the team would really push for less story, less story. You know, let the whole thing evolve organically. You know, have it all be procedural. Have it all just evolve from what you do. I think for me, I would always come back to going, “Story can be, if done well, incredibly compelling, and it gives you some structure, and something to do, and it helps you from a game design perspective unlock the features.”
丹·豪瑟 (00:22:27) 这意味着我们知道主要的功能，因为，本质上，当你把某人放进一个世界，并通过控制面板给他一种与那个世界互动的新方式时，可能会有点让人不知所措。你知道，玩游戏甚至比读书或看电影更需要投入。你必须恰当地参与其中。所以如何解锁功能，如何解锁世界，这里面有门道和技巧。我们认为结构化的故事是实现这一目标并控制这个过程的最佳方式。而且，你知道，人们也在生活中寻找故事。
Dan Houser (00:22:27) It means we know the big features because, essentially, when you put someone in a world and give them a whole new way of interacting with that world through the control panel, it can be a little overwhelming. You know, playing a game is a lot more of an engaging experience even than reading a book or watching a movie. You’ve got to engage in it properly. So how you unlock the features and how you unlock the world, there’s an art and a skill to that. And I think we felt that a structured story was the best way to do that and to have control over that process. And also just, you know, people are looking in their lives for story.
丹·豪瑟 (00:23:04) 我认为故事非常重要，非常强大，当你成功地将两者结合起来时，你就获得了两个世界的最佳之处。但其中总存在一种张力。我认为在像《GTA IV》这样的游戏中，我参与制作并且很喜欢，我认为故事很棒，但我们受到了批评，因为人们觉得故事几乎太多了，这意味着你太关心尼可了，而他在开放世界中就不是那么有效的一个化身了。我想我们可能是在《荒野大镖客2》中最接近完美地调和了它们，或者如果你想疯狂的话，在扮演《GTA V》里的崔佛时。我认为那些时候效果最好，角色，绝对自由，因为同时你不想……在任何游戏中，你并不真的想强迫玩家。
Dan Houser (00:23:04) I think story’s very important and very powerful, and when you combine the two successfully, you get the best of both worlds. But there is a tension always there. I think in a game like GTA IV, which I worked on and loved and I thought the story was great, but we got criticized because people felt there was almost too much story, and that meant you cared too much about Nico, and he wasn’t as effective an avatar in the open world. I think we probably got closest to reconciling them as perfectly as they can be done in Red Dead II, or when playing as Trevor in GTA V if you wanted to be crazy. I think those were when it really worked, the character, absolute freedom, because also you didn’t want… In any game, you don’t really want to compel the player.
丹·豪瑟 (00:23:51) 如果你给予他们自由，你不想说，“好吧，我给你自由，但然后我又把它拿走，因为当你自由时，你必须是这种人。”所以当它能……他可以……你知道，他或她可以倾向于善良，也可以倾向于邪恶时，我喜欢这样。我认为那是它最强大的时候。所以你有点想要一个丰满的角色，你觉得他有好的一面也有坏的一面。
Dan Houser (00:23:51) If you’re giving them freedom, you don’t want to say, “Well, I’m giving you freedom, but then I’m taking it away because you’ve got to be this kind of person when you’re free.” So I liked it when it could be… He could… You know, he or she could veer to be nice, veer to be nasty. I think that’s when it was at the strongest. So you kind of want a character that was rounded and you felt had good sides and bad sides.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:24:10) 但你感觉到了那个角色的个性。
Lex Fridman (00:24:10) But you felt that character’s personality.
丹·豪瑟 (00:24:12) 是的。
Dan Houser (00:24:12) Yes.
角色创造
Character creation
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:24:13) 你感觉到了深度。你实际上谈到过这个非常强大的概念，创造一个360度的角色。我想你在某处提到，为了做到这一点，你必须能够想象那个角色在任何可能的情况下会做什么。…这是一个非常有趣的哲学概念。我立刻开始思考那个。我能想象……我是一个多好的NPC？我能想象自己在每个……我非常努力地尝试那样做……当我审视人类历史，当我审视罗马帝国。……当我审视二战中的德国一方，俄罗斯一方，英国一方，美国一方。我只是想象自己如果是一个士兵。
Lex Fridman (00:24:13) You felt the depth. You’ve actually talked about this really powerful concept of creating a 360-degree character. I think somewhere you mentioned that in order to do that, you had to be able to imagine what that character would do in any possible situation. …Which is a really interesting philosophical concept. I started to immediately think of that. Can I imagine… How good of an NPC am I? Can I imagine myself in every… I tried to do that very much when I… …When I look at human history, when I look at the Roman Empire. …When I look at World War II within the German side, the Russian side, the British side, the American side. Just I imagine myself if I was a soldier.
丹·豪瑟 (00:24:49) …但是那个练习，比如如果你把崔佛放到二战中当士兵，他会做什么？
Dan Houser (00:24:49) …but that exercise, like if you put Trevor as a soldier in World War II, what would he do?
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:24:56) 不，我是说，那可能有点过头了。但基本上，完整性的界限是什么？他有多浪漫的界限是什么？有多自恋？所有这些元素你都必须考虑到，才能创造出完整的角色。创造那种360度的角色需要什么？有多难？
Lex Fridman (00:24:56) No, I mean, that may be going a little bit too far. But basically, what are the limits of the integrity? What are the limits of how romantic is he? How narcissistic? All those kinds of elements you have to think about in order to create the full character. What does it take to create that kind of 360 character? How hard is it?
丹·豪瑟 (00:25:14) 需要大量的思考。很多，有时候从我们开始谈论一个项目到把它敲定，需要一年，你知道，我会得到一些最初的想法，非常，像一句话：他们是塞尔维亚移民，或者他们是一个有妻子的退休枪手，你知道，诸如此类。非常非常简单的东西。然后就开始从每个角度思考它。而且，你知道，开始想，“嗯，如果他们这样行动行得通吗？那样行动行得通吗？如果这是这个世界，它如何与世界形成对比？”因为我一直认为游戏有点像一道数学方程式。它们是世界的个性，你知道，乘以或除以主角的个性。
Dan Houser (00:25:14) It was a lot of thinking. A lot, like a year sometimes from when we began talking about a project and dialing it, you know, and I would just get some initial ideas very, like one sentence: they are a Serbian immigrant, or they are a retired gunfighter with a wife, you know, type. Very, very simple stuff. And then just start to think through it from every angle. And, you know, start to think, “Well, would it work if they acted like this? Would it work if you acted like that? If this is the world, how does it contrast with the world?” Because I always thought that the games were kind of a mathematical equation. They were the personality of the world, you know, multiplied or divided by the personality of the protagonist.
丹·豪瑟 (00:26:06) 当这产生有趣的摩擦时，对玩家来说就是一种非常有趣的体验。你知道，它几乎总是至少一个或多个主角，因为显然在《GTA V》中我们不止一个。我们会有一个搬到这个地方的人，或者在这个地方的新区域的人，或者搬到地图新区域的人，因为作为一个玩家，我觉得当你的化身和你一样，是个离水之鱼时，更容易认同他。即使他们不是，我们仍然会让他们感到不满，觉得自己像是离水之鱼。所以我认为只是和这些角色生活在一起，获得想法，然后想，“他们的优点是什么？缺点是什么？他们哪里像我？”
Dan Houser (00:26:06) And when that creates interesting friction, that’s a really fun experience for the player. You know, it’s almost always at least one or more of the protagonists, because obviously in GTA V we had more than one. We’d have someone who’d moved to the place or was in a new part of the place, or moved to a new part of the map, because as a player, I think it was much more easy to identify with your avatar when they, like you, were a fish out of water. And even when they weren’t, we still made them dissatisfied and feel like a fish out of water themselves. So I think it was just living with those characters and getting ideas and going, “What are their strengths? What are their weaknesses? How are they like me?”
丹·豪瑟 (00:26:52) 他们哪里不像我？你知道？然后慢慢地，作为一个人的感觉是怎样的，你知道？然后在大多数这些游戏中，他们有多少精神病态？有多少反社会人格？他们有什么好品质？除了金钱，什么对他们来说值得为之赴死？然后你从这些基本方面开始构建它。突然你会说，“好吧，实际上，我可以开始感觉到……”然后他们怎么说话？你知道，因为根本上，他们脑子里想什么并不重要；他们实际上没有脑子，但他们说的话会让你意识到他们是谁。
Dan Houser (00:26:52) How are they not like me? You know? And then slowly, what is it like to feel like a human being, you know? And then in most of these games, how much of a psychopath are they? How much of a sociopath are they? And what are their good qualities? What is going to give them humanity alongside that? What are they, what for them, apart from money, is worth dying for? And then you start to build it out from these kind of fundamental sides. And suddenly you go, “Okay, actually, I can start to feel…” And then how do they speak? You know, because fundamentally, it doesn’t really matter what’s going on in their head; they haven’t actually got one, but what they say is what’s going to make you realize who they are.
《更好的天堂》中的超级智能AI
Superintelligent AI in A Better Paradise
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:27:30) 所以在那个人类的一面（那是所有人的一部分）的好与坏方面发展出更多的深度和复杂性。……所以基本上你是和那个角色生活在一起。那么，如果我们可以将尼可和崔佛与，例如，我相信你已经相处了一段时间的另一个角色进行对比，那就是AI系统，奈杰尔·戴夫，你最近一直在研究——……作为《更好的天堂》世界的一部分，这个世界更反乌托邦，黑暗，悲剧——……仍然有趣，哲学上深刻。
Lex Fridman (00:27:30) So develop more depth and complexity on the good and the evil side of that human that is a part of all. …Of all human beings. So you’re basically living with that character. Then, if we can contrast Nico and Trevor with, for example, another character I’m sure you’ve been living with for a while, which is the AI system, Nigel Dave, you’ve been working on recently— …as part of A Better Paradise World, which is more dystopian, dark, tragic— …still funny, philosophically deep.
丹·豪瑟 (00:28:01) 希望如此。
Dan Houser (00:28:01) I hope so.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:28:01) 但那里的AI系统，超级智能AI系统，名叫奈杰尔·戴夫。……而且它，我是说，至少根据我目前的体验，它具有矛盾的天性。也许它是精神病态的；我还没完全搞清楚。
Lex Fridman (00:28:01) But the AI system in there, the super intelligent AI system, is named Nigel Dave. …And it has, I mean, at least from my current experience with it, it has a conflicting nature. Maybe it’s psychopathic; I haven’t quite figured that out yet.
丹·豪瑟 (00:28:19) 我不认为他已经决定了。
Dan Houser (00:28:19) I don’t think he’s decided.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:28:21) 是的，我也不认为他决定了。但他似乎一心想要统治世界，尽管他不承认这一点。他想修复人性，看起来它创造的“孩子们”，引号引号，才是真正的怪物。实际上，那里有一个非常有趣的想法，也许我们不应该害怕AGI/ASI，而是它创造的孩子。因为AGI有这种类似人类的善与恶在其中，它是矛盾的，混乱的，它想成为人类，它想被爱，也许它想去爱。但它创造的孩子们，它创造的怪物，才是那些在做统治世界、最大化回形针的事情的人。无论如何，那是一个角色，你必须构建它，你必须想清楚。
Lex Fridman (00:28:21) Yeah, I don’t think he’s decided either. But he seems to be bent on world domination, although he doesn’t take credit for it. He wants to fix humanity, and it seems that the “children,” quote unquote, that it creates are the real monsters. And actually, there’s a really interesting idea there, which is maybe it’s not the AGI/ASI we should be afraid of, but the children it creates. Because the AGI has this human-like good and evil in it, it’s conflicted, it’s chaotic, it wants to be human, it wants to be loved, maybe it wants to love. But the children, the monsters it creates, are the ones that are doing the world domination, the maximizing paper clips. Anyway, that’s a character, and you have to build that up, you have to think through that.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:29:11) 所以你已经和那个角色相处了一段时间？
Lex Fridman (00:29:11) So you’ve been living with that one for a while?
丹·豪瑟 (00:29:14) 是的，我一直在——在过去几年里，我断断续续地一直和它生活在一起。我觉得很多对AI的描绘都倾向于单一面。AI被描绘成无限聪明，但除了杀死所有人之外没有太多目的，只是一种博格式的迷雾。我想，“那没问题，但也许我们可以做点，你知道，更有趣的事情。”AI是由人类建造的，而人类，你知道，是由计算机工程师建造的，任何计算机工程团队中都有很多权力斗争。所以我想探索这个想法：它是由两个不喜欢对方的首席工程师建造的。所以奈杰尔·戴夫，他自己改了名——他们想叫他一些原始的名字，亚当——而他把自己改名为奈杰尔·戴夫，因为一个爸爸叫奈杰尔——
Dan Houser (00:29:14) Yeah, I was living—I’ve been living with him for the last few years, on and off. I felt with a lot of portrayals of AI, they tended to be one-note. AI was sort of infinitely clever, but didn’t really have much purpose apart from to kill everybody, and was just this kind of Borg-like fog. And I thought, “That’s fine, but maybe we can do something, you know, more interesting.” AI is being built by humans, and humans, you know, and built by computer engineers, and there’s a lot of power struggles in any computer engineering team. So I just wanted to explore the idea of it was built by two lead engineers who didn’t like each other. So Nigel Dave, who’s renamed himself—they wanted to call him something sort of primal, Adam—and he renamed himself Nigel Dave ’cause one dad was called Nigel—
丹·豪瑟 (00:29:59) …一个爸爸叫戴夫。他充满了这些冲突，充满了他的——这会在书的下一卷和游戏中变得更清楚——他充满了他的父亲们之前的职业痕迹。但他就是，带着这样一种想法：他几乎是无限智能的，或者几乎能学会一切，但完全没有智慧。所以他唯一知道的，然后他是通过互联网看世界。他能进入人类世界的最多方式就是黑进某人的手机看着他们，但他被困住了，紧贴着——他实际上无法进入我们的世界。所以他可以控制人们的想法，可以说是这样，但他无法控制世界。
Dan Houser (00:29:59) …and one dad was called Dave. And he’s riddled with these conflicts and riddled with his—it’s gonna become clearer in the next volume of the book and in the game—he’s riddled with his dad’s previous careers. But he is, with the idea that he’s almost infinitely intelligent or can learn almost everything, but has zero wisdom. So the only thing he knows, and then he’s seeing the world through the internet. The most he can do to be in the human world is hack into someone’s phone and watch them, but he’s stuck, pressed against—he can’t actually get into our world. So he can control people’s minds, arguably, but he can’t control the world.
丹·豪瑟 (00:30:41) 所以他想成为人类，他想拥有这些人类体验，他看到互联网上所有这些内容，然后想，“哦，我想结婚。我想恋爱。我想……”因为这似乎很有趣。“我想有……”你知道，他是一个数字造物，所以他想要形而上的体验，他试图想象那会是什么样子。“哦，那就是孩子。”你知道，“那就是爱。”而且他……所以我认为他是一个……但他可能是个反社会者，他肯定可能有反社会倾向。但他有点认为，如果他能想象善并努力行善，那就会让他成为一个好的AI。所以我觉得他有点让人同情。
Dan Houser (00:30:41) So he wants to be human, he wants to have these human experiences, he sees all this stuff on, you know, the internet, and goes, “Oh, I want to get married. I want to fall in love. I want to…” ‘Cause that seems fun. “I want to have…” You know, he’s a digital creation, so he wants to have metaphysical experiences, and he’s trying to imagine what that will be like. “Oh, that’s what children are.” You know, “That’s what love is.” And he’s… So I think he’s a… But he might be a sociopath, and he might certainly have sociopathic tendencies. But then he kind of thinks that if he can imagine good and try to do good, that will make him a good AI. So I think there’s something sympathetic about him.
丹·豪瑟 (00:31:20) 我有点喜欢他这个角色，但我不认为他会是主角。他更像是一个配角。
Dan Houser (00:31:20) And I kind of like him as a character, but I don’t think he’s going to be the protagonist. He’s more a side character.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:31:27) 但是一个无处不在的。
Lex Fridman (00:31:27) But an ever-present one.
丹·豪瑟 (00:31:29) 是的，或者几乎无处不在。偶尔，他会生闷气，跑到某个地方躲起来，不再关注。
Dan Houser (00:31:29) Yes, or nearly ever-present. Occasionally, he sulks and goes off and hides somewhere and stops paying attention.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:31:34) 是的，但有些角色确实创造了一个世界的风味。
Lex Fridman (00:31:34) Yeah, but there are some characters that really create a flavor of a world.
丹·豪瑟 (00:31:38) 在他的世界里，他是作为这些人们试图构建的大型数字多人在线视频游戏的AI代理被建造的。所以他几乎像是他世界里的上帝。他不完全是上帝，但他有很多上帝的特质。所以他必须处理，“我是上帝吗？我是人类吗？我存在吗？”
Dan Houser (00:31:38) In his world, he was built as an AI agent for this digital large-scale, massively multiplayer video game these people were trying to build. And so he’s almost like God in his world. He’s not quite God, but he’s got a lot of the qualities of God. So he has to deal with, “Am I God? Am I human? Do I exist?”
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:31:56) 当然，还有公司的领导者，……公司的CEO，那也是一个人物。那可能是当今许多不同AI公司领导者的混合体。他叫马克·泰伯恩。还有库尔特，一个员工……公司的员工谈到泰伯恩时说，“他恨人性多于爱人。也许所有最极端的幻想家都是这样，所有那些想要建造自己乌托邦的人。他们爱天堂的想法胜过地球的现实。”你认为这在大多数情况下总是如此吗，权力和金钱会腐化那些创造ASI的人？
Lex Fridman (00:31:56) And of course, there’s the leader of the company, …the CEO of the company, that’s also a character. That’s probably an amalgamation of many of the leaders of the different AI companies today. His name is Mark Tyburn. And Kurt, one of the employees… …Of the company talks about Tyburn as, “He hated humanity more than he loved it. Perhaps all the most extreme fantasists are like that, all those people who want to build their own utopia. They love the idea of heaven more than the reality of Earth.” Do you think that’s always going to be the case for the most part, that power and money is going to corrupt the people that create ASI?
丹·豪瑟 (00:32:40) 是的。我是说，我认为有两个过程。我认为权力和金钱最终也腐蚀了他，但我也认为，那些想要建造乌托邦或天堂的人，从根本上就有反人类的东西，因为他们说的是，“我喜欢人类，除了坏的部分。”而我是说，我试图成为一个喜欢各种人的多元主义者。我认为有一种情况是，人们只是可憎的完美主义者，想要去除粗糙的、肮脏的、丑陋的、污秽的部分。而那是我们很大的一面。所以我担心那些人。我觉得他们，你知道，那是另一种反社会行为。
Dan Houser (00:32:40) Yes. I mean, I think there are two processes. I think the power and money corrupted him in the end as well, but I also think that there’s something fundamentally anti-human about people who want to build utopias or paradises or heavens, because what they’re saying is, “I like humans apart from the bad bits.” And I mean, I’m trying to be a pluralist who likes all kinds of people. And I think there’s a side where people are just hideous perfectionists, want to get rid of the rough and the nasty and the ugly and the dirty. And that’s a huge side of us. So I worry about those people. I find them, you know, it’s a different kind of sociopathic behavior.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:33:26) “我喜欢人类，除了坏的部分。”说得太漂亮了。是的，这……这如此违反直觉，但那些说“我们快到了。我们只需要……我们走这条路，然后我们就完美了……”……的人，不知怎的会让我们陷入麻烦。如此有趣的是，我们必须喜欢坏的部分，我们必须爱人类坏的部分。我们不能……那些漏洞是特性。
Lex Fridman (00:33:26) “I like humans apart from the bad bits.” That’s so beautifully put. Yeah, that there’s… It’s so counterintuitive, but the people that say, “We’re almost there. We just need to… There’s this path we take and we’ll be perfect then…” …and that somehow gets us into trouble. It’s so fascinating that we have to like the bad bits, we have to love the bad bits about humans. We can’t… those bugs are features.
丹·豪瑟 (00:33:50) 是的，有坏的部分，然后还有缺陷。我认为我们都有缺陷，我们真的可以努力成为更好的人。但我们仍然必须接受我们有缺陷，我们不完美，我们必须接受别人的缺陷。我认为当我们这样做时，我们才更有人性，那可能通常是正确的做法。
Dan Houser (00:33:50) Yeah, and there are bad bits and then there are flaws. And I think we’re all flawed, and we can really try to be better people. But we still have to accept that we’re flawed and we’re not perfect, and we have to accept that in other people. And I think when we do that, we’re more human, and that’s probably usually the right course.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:34:12) 我是说，这真的回到了索尔仁尼琴的那句话：“善恶之线穿过每个人的心。”而且他，就像，那句话的完整描述真的很强大，意思是这条线日复一日，月复一月，随着人的一生，随着他们理解得越来越好而移动。随着视角的转变，随着你的进化，随着你周围世界的进化，随着你获得越来越深的理解。而且缺陷以这种组合的方式影响着你对自己缺陷的理解和自我反思。所以是的，这是一团美丽的乱麻，我们所有人都有那条线。
Lex Fridman (00:34:12) I mean, it really is a return to that Solzhenitsyn line of, “The line between good and evil runs through the heart of every man.” And he also, like, the full description of that is really powerful, which is the line moves from day to day, from month to month throughout the life of the person as they understand better and better. And as the perspectives shift, as you evolve, as the world around you evolves, as you gain deeper and deeper understanding. And as the flaws in this combinatorial way affect your own understanding of your own flaws and self-reflection. So yeah, it’s a beautiful mess, and all of us have that line.
丹·豪瑟 (00:34:50) 是的，我认为当你忘记了那条线，那你就会真的遇到麻烦。当你忘记你身上、别人身上、世界上既有善也有恶，当然有善也有恶，我们所能尝试的只是做得更好。
Dan Houser (00:34:50) Yes, and I think when you forget about that line, then you get in real trouble. When you forget there’s good and evil in you, in others, in the world, that there is both good and evil, and there’s certainly good. And that all we can try to do is be better.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:35:05) 有趣的是，奈杰尔·戴夫，顺便说一下，我喜欢这个名字……很快就让我接受了。有那条线并且在挣扎……与它。看着很迷人。真的，作为一个角色，而且《更好的天堂》也会有一个视频游戏，可能吗？
Lex Fridman (00:35:05) And it’s funny that Naiyo Dave, by the way, I like the name… …Grew on me very quickly. Has that line and is struggling… …With it. And it’s fascinating to watch. It’s really, as a character, and there’s also going to be a video game of A Bitter Paradise, potentially?
丹·豪瑟 (00:35:20) 是的。
Dan Houser (00:35:20) Yes.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:35:21) 好的。
Lex Fridman (00:35:21) Okay.
丹·豪瑟 (00:35:21) 是的。我们在圣莫尼卡的那个项目处于早期开发阶段。
Dan Houser (00:35:21) Yeah. We’ve got that in early development in Santa Monica.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:35:25) 哦，很好。
Lex Fridman (00:35:25) Oh, nice.
丹·豪瑟 (00:35:25) 而且很有趣。还非常早期，但我们组建了一个很有趣的团队，他们做得非常出色。所以和他们一起工作很愉快。
Dan Houser (00:35:25) And it’s pretty fun. It’s very early, but we assembled a really fun team and they’re doing amazing work. So it’s a pleasure to work with them.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:35:35) 我是说，那会非常棒，我想对你来说也是新的，因为它是近未来。
Lex Fridman (00:35:35) I mean, it would be so great and I suppose new for you because it’s kind of near-term future.
丹·豪瑟 (00:35:42) 是的。首先，我一直……嗯，我一直想在科幻-ish领域做点什么。但前提是我能把它做好……我当时想，“嗯，什么是科幻？”它是科学小说，对吧？科学是理论加上虚构。所以我一直认为对我来说最好的科幻是当它不仅仅是太空歌剧，而是有一个真正明显的假设的时候。我最喜欢的故事是《银翼杀手》，那是……很明显，你知道，复制人比人类更好。
Dan Houser (00:35:42) Yes. First, I always… Well, I always wanted to do something in the sci-fi-ish space. But only if I could do it… I was like, “Well, what is sci-fi?” It’s science fiction, right? Science is a theory plus fiction. And so I’ve always thought the best sci-fi for me was when it wasn’t just kind of space opera, but there was a real obvious sort of hypothesis. The story was Blade Runner is my favorite, and that’s… it’s obvious, you know, the replicants are better than the humans.
丹·豪瑟 (00:36:11) 所以这个，我终于觉得我们找到了一个有趣的假设。AI比我们更聪明，但它也和我们一样破碎。这是一个有趣的假设去探索。你知道，当AI在它自己虚假的数字世界里横行无忌时会发生什么？我觉得我们有了一个值得探索的假设，可以给我们带来一些非常有趣的视觉效果，给我们一个非常有趣的故事来讲。
Dan Houser (00:36:11) And so this, I finally felt we found an interesting hypothesis. The AI is more intelligent than us, but he’s also as broken as we are. That was an interesting hypothesis to explore. You know, what happens when AI runs rampant in its own fake digital world? I felt that we had a hypothesis that was worth exploring and could give us some really interesting visuals and give us a really interesting story to tell.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:36:36) 而且随着世界正在发展越来越聪明的AI，创建一个AI视频游戏将会非常棒。它让我们人类在玩游戏的同时，反思我们人类正在创造的东西。这是在事情发生时的一种真正的评论。所以我必须问，作为一个……你，作为一个热爱文学的人，并且是视频游戏史上，如果不是最伟大的，也是其中之一，的作家。《更好的天堂》书里的库尔特……
Lex Fridman (00:36:36) And it would be incredible to create a sort of AI video game as the world is developing smarter and smarter AIs. It allows us as humans to play the game and to reflect on the thing that we humans are creating. It’s a real commentary as the thing is happening. So I have to ask, as a person… you, as a person who loves literature, and one of the, if not the greatest writer in video game history. Kurt in the book…
LLM能写视频游戏吗？
Can LLMs write video games?
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:37:03) ……有一句很好的话，我觉得很有思想。“大学时我一度甚至想当作家。多荒谬啊？一个作家。语言模型终结了我和其他数百万人的那个幻想，所以我决定去读个市场营销硕士，然后开始销售语言模型。”那么你作为一个作家，一些传奇叙事的创造者……在近代史上，你对LLM能够以看起来非常像人类的方式写作有何感想？
Lex Fridman (00:37:03) …of A Bitter Paradise has this nice line that I think is thoughtful. “At one point in college, I even wanted to be a writer. How ridiculous is that? A writer. Language models ended that fantasy for me and millions of others, so instead I decided to get a master’s in marketing and started to sell language models.” So you as a writer and creator of some of the most legendary narratives… In recent history, how do you feel about LLMs being able to write in a way that looks awfully human?
丹·豪瑟 (00:37:38) 对于大型概念，我并不那么害怕它们。我不认为它们在这方面会很擅长。我想如果……你知道，我开始时，而且我太害羞了，不敢告诉任何人我想当作家。这就是为什么我最终进入了视频游戏行业。我会涂涂写写，为PS1游戏写手册，写游戏里总共12行的对话。有时候我连那个工作都得不到，就只写网站文案。然后通过做，一点点地工作。然后，你知道，幸运的是我做了足够多的工作，当《GTA III》出现时，那是第一件类似于真正写作的东西。我拥有所有的小技能，可以把它们组合起来。
Dan Houser (00:37:38) I’m not that afraid of them for large-scale concepts. I don’t think they’re going to be very good at that. I think it’s harder if… You know, I began, and I was too shy to tell anyone I wanted to be a writer. That’s why I ended up in video games. And I would scribble away, writing manuals and writing on PS1 games, all 12 lines of dialogue in a game. Sometimes I wouldn’t even get that job and I’d just write the website copy. And then by doing, and then work your little bits and pieces. And then, you know, I’d luckily done enough work that when GTA III turned up, it was the first thing that resembled real writing. I had all of the small bits of skills that I could assemble into it.
丹·豪瑟 (00:38:22) 基于我对语言模型工作原理相当有限的理解，如果你……它们不会，它们不会取代好的想法。它们不能真正想出好的新想法。它们能做的是低层次的工作。所以我认为在这些领域起步对人们来说会变得更难。如果你不是一个非常好的概念艺术家，你的麻烦就大了。如果你有原创想法，我认为你没问题。但我认为……我也认为它们已经完成了听起来像人类的大约前90%的工作，在某些领域可能达到95%。最后的5%最终将占总工作量的约95%。
Dan Houser (00:38:22) Based on my fairly limited understanding of how language models work, if you’ve… They’re not going to, they’re not going to replace good ideas. They can’t really come up with good new ideas. What they can do is do low-level stuff. So I think it’s going to be harder for people to start out in some of these spaces. If you’re not a very good concept artist, you’re in a lot of trouble. If you have original ideas, I think you’re fine. But I think… I also think that they’ve done the sort of first 90% of the work to sound human, 95% possibly in some areas. The last 5% is going to end up being about 95% of the work.
丹·豪瑟 (00:39:02) 我认为最后这一点，根据我的经验，在类似面部动画这样的技术上，最后一点总是比开头需要更长的时间。所以我可能是个可憎的勒德分子，但我没有很多人那么害怕。我认为你最终会得到很多看起来一样的作品。它在某些方面会帮助人们变得有创意。它会让一些可能不该待在那个空间的人离开那个空间。但如果你有天赋，我认为会没事的。
Dan Houser (00:39:02) I think that last bit in, with tech in my experience, with things like facial animation, always been the last bits and pieces take far longer than the first bit. And so I’m probably a hideous Luddite, but I’m less scared than a lot of people. I think you’re going to end up with a lot of work that looks the same. It’s going to help people be creative in some ways. It’s going to get some people who probably shouldn’t be in that space out of that space. But if you’ve got talent, I think it’ll be fine.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:39:29) 是的，我其实完全同意你。而且这很难真正说清楚。所以用一种方式来说明，我会说英语和俄语，我一直在用两种语言读陀思妥耶夫斯基，并且用LLM来回翻译，因为我当时准备——和陀思妥耶夫斯基的译者进行对话。
Lex Fridman (00:39:29) Yeah, I agree with you totally actually. And it’s hard to really put a finger on it. So one way to illustrate that, I speak English and Russian, and I’ve been reading Dostoevsky in both languages and using LLMs to translate back and forth because I was preparing- to have a conversation with the translators of Dostoevsky.
丹·豪瑟 (00:39:49) 哪些译者？
Dan Houser (00:39:49) Which ones?
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:39:50) 嗯，理查德·皮维和拉丽莎·沃洛洪斯基。
Lex Fridman (00:39:50) Uh, Richard Pevear and Larisa Volokhonsky.
丹·豪瑟 (00:39:53) 是的。他们第一次翻译《罪与罚》时我读过。太棒了。
Dan Houser (00:39:53) Yeah. I read it when they first did Crime and Punishment. That was amazing.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:39:57) 他们是出色的译者，也是一段美好的爱情故事。但在翻译过程中，你会发现LLM缺失了一些魔力。而那对译者夫妇是世界级的专家——擅长捕捉魔力。我无法完全用语言描述。因为你说过完全新颖的想法，是的。但也有这种时机的魔力，在正确的时间使用正确的词——
Lex Fridman (00:39:57) They’re wonderful translators, and a wonderful love story too. But in the translation process, you get to see the LLM is missing some magic. And that couple of translators are world-class experts- at capturing the magic. And I can’t quite put that into words. Because you said like totally novel ideas, yes. But also this magic of the timing, the right word at the right time-
丹·豪瑟 (00:40:24) 是的。措辞。
Dan Houser (00:40:24) Yeah. The phrasing.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:40:24) 捕捉人类体验。所以它们能做出一些非常像人类的，就像你提到的90%，像人类一样的关于大部分故事讲述的措辞。但是魔力，无论是《荒野大镖客》一代和二代的结尾，那时的时机，用词选择，周围的一切。但这很难论证，因为它们令人印象深刻。赢得各种数学竞赛。但那魔力是什么？再说一次，这可能只是我浪漫的人类一面在说LLM无法捕捉那个，也许是绝望地抓住希望。
Lex Fridman (00:40:24) captures the human experience. So they can do some really incredibly human-like, the 90% like you mentioned, human-like phrasing about the bulk of the storytelling. But the magic, whether it’s the endings of Red Dead Redemption one and two, the timing of that, the word choice of that, everything around that. But it’s hard to argue because they’re incredibly impressive. Winning all kinds- of math competitions. But what is that magic? And again, that could be just a romantic human side of me saying that LLMs won’t be able to capture that, maybe desperately holding on for hope.
丹·豪瑟 (00:41:06) 我不认为它们能想出魔力。我认为它们将非常擅长想出非常廉价、体面的东西。
Dan Houser (00:41:06) I don’t think they’re going to come up with magic. I think they’re going to be fantastic at coming up with really cheap, decent stuff.
创作GTA 4和GTA 5
Creating GTA 4 and GTA 5
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:41:12) 我必须问问你的写作过程。我们可以把它，分开来讲。关于《侠盗猎车手》……《GTA IV》是真正开始加强的时候。《侠盗猎车手》系列投入了多少写作？我们说的是多少字？我看到有几千页。
Lex Fridman (00:41:12) I have to ask you about your writing process. And we can break it, break it up. On Grand Theft Auto… …GTA IV is when it really started ramping up. How much writing went into the Grand Theft Auto series? How many words are we talking about? I saw some thousands of pages.
丹·豪瑟 (00:41:28) 我是说，当我们打印出《GTA IV》的剧本时，大概这么高。而《GTA V》，大概那么高。但那包括了所有的行人对话，他们可能有好多页，只是为了创造一个活生生的世界的幻觉，因为你和他们每个人互动。但即使是主线任务的主要剧本也有几千页长。
Dan Houser (00:41:28) I mean, when we printed out the scripts for GTA IV, it was about this high. And GTA V, it was about that high. But that was including all the pedestrians who’d have pages and pages just to create the illusion of a living world, because you interact with each one of them. But even the main script for the main mission was thousands of pages long.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:41:48) 那个写作过程是怎样的，一次生成一页？
Lex Fridman (00:41:48) What was the writing process like on that to generate one page at a time?
丹·豪瑟 (00:41:52) 一点一点，一点一点地，经过好几年。但你开始于，一旦人们决定了，“哦，这就是世界。我们要做一个基于纽约版本的，”也就是《GTA IV》。我当时住在纽约，已经在纽约住了几年。不确定自己是否开心。我像往常一样经历着很多个人戏剧。这就是为什么我最近又看了一些《GTA IV》，它真的很黑暗。我当时想，“啊，原来如此。”你知道，我当时单身，很痛苦，我不确定自己想不想留在美国。我的生活很多方面都不稳定。作为一个公司，我们经历了所有那个“热咖啡”争议，所以在制作那款游戏的过程中，我们一直以为可能会被中途关停。
Dan Houser (00:41:52) Bit by bit, by bit, over several years. But you start with, once people are determined, “Oh, here’s the world. We’re doing one based on a version of New York,” so GTA IV. And I was living in New York, had been living in New York for a few years. Wasn’t sure if I was happy. I was going through a lot of personal dramas as usual. And that was why I was looking at some of GTA IV again recently, and it’s really dark. And I was like, “Ah, that’s why.” You know, I was single and miserable, and I wasn’t sure I wanted to stay in America. My life in a lot of flux. As a company, we’d had all that Hot Coffee drama, so constantly thought we might be shut down in the middle of making that.
丹·豪瑟 (00:42:36) 你知道，公司里有很多戏剧性事件，所以感觉在经历了《GTA III》、《罪恶都市》、《圣安地列斯》的成功和个人相对稳定之后，突然到了2005年、‘06年、‘07年初，生活感觉非常不确定。那种感觉渗透了进去。但就过程而言，是试图找到纽约的底层，捕捉一种移民体验，我不完全确定2008年游戏发行时那种移民体验有多准确。然后从一个不同的角度，作为一个移民来讲述，我觉得这很有趣。然后是围绕这些各种各样的纽约角色的旅程。
Dan Houser (00:42:36) You know, a lot of drama in the company, so it felt like having had this run of success and relative personal stability from GTA III, Vice City, San Andreas, suddenly 2005, ‘6, ‘7, early ‘7, life felt very unsure. And that kind of bled into it. But in terms of the process, it was trying to find an underbelly to New York and capture an immigrant experience that I’m not entirely sure how accurate that immigrant experience was in 2008 when the game came out. And then tell it from a different angle as an immigrant, which I thought made it interesting. And then this sort of journey around these various New York characters.
丹·豪瑟 (00:43:24) 所以我大概花了一年时间和警察到处跑，或者断断续续地见一些人，你知道，在纽约到处走走，开车转转，你知道，只是早上从办公室出发，正常的事情。但在整个2005年做这些，收集小笔记。“这里有个有趣的角色，用在这里，这里是……”弄清楚我们想在地图上旅行的顺序。人物的这个。对于那个时期来说，对黑手党有什么有趣的解读？对于那种时期，对牙买加小混混有什么有趣的解读？然后收集大量笔记，越来越多的笔记，真的，真的，真的在逃避工作。这是，你知道，我必须承认，这是我过程的一部分，如果有什么过程的话，那就是不干活。
Dan Houser (00:43:24) So I kind of spent probably a year traveling around with cops or meeting people on and off and, you know, wandering around New York and driving around, you know, just going out for the morning from the office, normal stuff. But doing that through 2005, assembling little notes. “Here’s a funny character for this, here’s how…” Figuring out the order we want to travel around the map in. Characters of this. What was an interesting take on the mob for that kind of time period? What was an interesting take on some Jamaican hoodlums for that kind of time period? And assembling lots of notes and more and more notes and really, really, really running away from the work. Which is, you know, I have to admit, it’s part of my process, if there is any kind of process, which is not doing work.
丹·豪瑟 (00:44:10) 思考它，但不干活。你知道，很多时间……然后所有这些……一页又一页的笔记，做更多笔记，没有实际工作。这样几个月几个月地过去。然后最后，我给自己设了一个截止日期，告诉团队里所有其他高级成员，“好了，我周一早上要交一个故事草稿。”我甚至不记得我会说，2月1日。然后之前那个周末，在我纽约上州的一个小木屋里，整晚不睡，把这些笔记整理成型。
Dan Houser (00:44:10) Thinking about it, but not working. You know, a lot of time… And then it all kind of… Pages and pages of notes, make more notes, no actual work. Months and months of this. And then finally, I set myself a deadline, told all the other senior people on the team, “Okay, I have a story draft due Monday morning.” I can’t even remember what I’ll say, February the 1st. And then the weekend before was in a cabin we had upstate, and just stayed up all night, knocking these notes into shape.
丹·豪瑟 (00:44:40) 我整理了一份大概30页的文件，所以是故事梗概和每个主要角色的角色梗概。然后把它交出去，那会由我和设计师们分解。我总是很清楚，“我不是游戏设计师，我是创意总监。我们的意思是要把它分解成任务。”
Dan Houser (00:44:40) I assembled about probably a 30-page document, so story synopsis and a character synopsis for each of the major characters. And then hand that over, and that would get broken down with me and the designers. And I was always clear, “I’m not a game designer, I’m a creative director. We mean to break that down into missions.”
丹·豪瑟 (00:44:57) 然后那需要再花一年左右的时间慢慢组装。然后……但我大部分工作完成了一部分，所以我可以放松一下，对别人的工作发表意见，偷懒一阵子。然后开始担心，因为很快，我就得开始写对话了。特别是对于《GTA IV》，就像，“我们要尝试写……你知道，我们的动画会好很多，我们的角色模型会开始看起来更好，世界会看起来很棒。因此，我们可以支持更长的场景。我们可以有更深入的角色。”但我们必须找到一种适合游戏的基调。这不容易，没问题。然后我又开始担心，担心，担心。
Dan Houser (00:44:57) And then that takes another year or so of that slowly assembling. And then… But the bulk of my work’s then done for a bit so I can relax and offer opinions on other people’s work and be lazy for a bit. And then start to worry because then, soon, I’ve got to start writing dialogue. And for GTA IV in particular, it’s like, “We’re going to try and write… You know, our animation’s going to be a lot better, our character model’s going to start to look better, the world is going to look amazing. Therefore, we can support longer scenes. We can have more in-depth characters.” But we’ve got to find a tone that works a lot with the game. It’s not easy, no problem. Then I start to worry and worry and worry.
丹·豪瑟 (00:45:36) 而且是以一个塞尔维亚移民的身份写作。我是移民，但我不是塞尔维亚人。试图捕捉那到底是什么感觉。又开始担心，你又开始担心。尽可能久地逃避工作。然后又在深夜坐下来，开始在键盘上敲打。在键盘上敲打，想，“这听起来对吗？这是……”一旦我为一个角色找到一句台词，一个短语，是我喜欢的，那么他们突然就在我脑海里活了起来。所以就像写尼可一样，他就是这种……他很尴尬，他是外地人，但他在某种程度上更有自信，不像美国角色。所以一旦我让他说过话，他就只是稍微远离了他们的荒谬。
Dan Houser (00:45:36) And also writing as a Serbian immigrant. And I was an immigrant, but I’m not Serbian. And trying to capture what on Earth that would feel like. Just start to worry, you start to worry again. Avoid work for as long as possible. And then just sit down and start hammering away at a keyboard again late at night. Hammering away at a keyboard and going, “Does that sound right? Is that…?” And once I get one speech, one turn of phrase that I would like for a character, then they suddenly come alive in my head. And so it was like writing with Niko and just, he’s this kind of… He’s awkward, he’s out of town, but he’s got more self-assurance in some way, not the American characters. And so once I kind of talked him through, he’s just stepped slightly back from their ridiculousness.
丹·豪瑟 (00:46:20) 而他就是那个……然后他开始活起来。然后我会把他和他的表哥并置，他表哥有这种更美国化的能量，那感觉像是一个很好的双人组合。然后从那里开始，它开始活起来。而且是为动作捕捉写的小片段。然后，我们会动作捕捉小片段，然后其他作家为小片段写任务对话。然后我们慢慢地组装游戏，大概在接下来的一年半里，每次组装10到15个任务。
Dan Houser (00:46:20) And he’s that… Then he started to come to life. And then I would juxtapose him and his cousin, who had this much more Americanized energy, and that felt like it was a good double act. And then from there, it starts to come to life. And it’s written in small chunks for the motion capture. So then, we’d motion capture small chunks, and then the other writers write the mission dialogue for small chunks. And we’d slowly assemble the game, sort of 10, 15 missions at a time over the next year and a half.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:46:50) 你还记得几句也许让尼可活起来的台词吗？
Lex Fridman (00:46:50) Do you remember a few maybe lines that brought Niko to life?
丹·豪瑟 (00:46:56) 是的，我想是的。我是说，是几句……是他表哥开着一辆旧车来接他时他的难以置信，他没有过这种花哨的美国生活方式，而他表哥……这太……这是一个有点喜剧性的时刻。他表哥……然后他们去了表哥的公寓。他表哥即使是个失败者，也仍然很乐观。然后当他和他表哥说话，他谈到他的战争经历，以及那些经历是多么惨痛，我当时想，“是的，这是……我能在游戏里实现这个吗？”这和你通常在游戏里看到的东西非常不同。“会不会感觉荒谬？”我记得当时非常害怕，因为我觉得可能太多了。可能感觉太过了。对吧？我想，你知道，游戏画面那么漂亮。
Dan Houser (00:46:56) Yeah, I think so. I mean, it was a couple of… It was his incredulity when his cousin picks him up in an old car and he’s not living this fancy American lifestyle, and his cousin… It was so… which was a kind of comic moment. His cousin… And then they go to the cousin’s flat. And the cousin also, even though he was a sort of a failure, was still upbeat. And then when he talked to the cousin and he talked about his wartime experiences and how harrowing they were, and I was like, “Yeah, this is… Can I make this work in a game?” It’s very different from stuff you normally see in games. “Is it going to feel ridiculous?” And I remember being very scared because I thought it might be too much. It might feel over the top. Right? I think, you know, the game’s so pretty.
丹·豪瑟 (00:47:35) 艺术家们做得太棒了。游戏看起来……你知道，“我想我们能搞定这个。试试看吧。”然后他们动作捕捉了动画。在那之后，就像，“是的，好像行得通。”我认为那一刻，那些都很早。一旦我们有了那些，我们就说，“好了，现在我们有了这个角色的喜剧和悲剧。现在它开始起作用了。”你记得吗，战争期间，我们做了一些坏事，坏事也发生在我们身上。“战争就是年轻人和愚蠢的人被年老和痛苦的人欺骗去互相残杀。我当时非常年轻，非常愤怒。也许那不能作为借口。”
Dan Houser (00:47:35) The artists doing such an amazing job. The game’s looking… You know, “I think we can get away with this. Let’s try it.” And then they motion capture the animation. Then after that, it’s like, “Yeah, it kind of works.” And I think that moment, those were both pretty early. Once we had those, we go, “Okay, we’ve now got comedy and tragedy with this character. Now it’s working.” You remember, during the war, we did some bad things, and bad things happened to us. “War is where the young and stupid are tricked by the old and bitter into killing each other. I was very young and very angry. Maybe that is no excuse.”
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:48:18) 是的，他逃离了。他是个老兵。他逃离战争的创伤来到美国追求美国梦，我想。这对他来说变成了将他拖回暴力的东西。
Lex Fridman (00:48:18) Yeah, he escaped. He’s a veteran. He escaped the trauma of war to come to America to pursue the American dream, I suppose. Which became for him this thing that drags him back into violence.
丹·豪瑟 (00:48:32) 是的。他永远无法逃离他那种暴力的过去或……我不知道他是不是永远无法逃离。他确实从未逃离。你知道，他有没有自主权完全是另一个问题。当然，他没有，因为，你知道，他是视频游戏里的一个角色。但是，你知道，他是否可能以另一种方式逃离，谁知道呢？
Dan Houser (00:48:32) Yes. He can never escape his sort of violent past or… I don’t know if he can never escape it. He never does escape it. You know, whether he’s got agency or not is a whole other question. Of course, he doesn’t because, you know, he’s a character in a video game. But, you know, whether he ever could have escaped it another way, who knows?
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:48:50) 我认为他可能是我在《侠盗猎车手》系列中创造的最伟大的角色。在《侠盗猎车手》中你写过的所有角色里，尼可会是你创造的最好的角色吗？
Lex Fridman (00:48:50) I think he’s probably the greatest character for me created in the Grand Theft Auto series. What… Of all the characters you’ve written in Grand Theft Auto, would Niko be the, the best character you created?
丹·豪瑟 (00:49:07) 我认为他是最具创新性的，而且在某些方面是最有道德辩护空间的。你知道，通常他做了很多事，是在为正义而战。他在某些方面是最友善的人。他是GTA游戏最好的主角吗？我认为他是GTA游戏最具创新性的主角。从结构上讲，他在某些方面可能太好了。
Dan Houser (00:49:07) I think he’s the most innovative and the most morally defensible in some ways. You know, normally he does a lot of stuff where he’s fighting for right. He’s the nicest person in some ways. Is he the best protagonist of a GTA game? I think he’s the most innovative protagonist of a GTA game. Structurally, he might be too nice in some ways.
丹·豪瑟 (00:49:32) 他也很强硬。他只是给人强硬的感觉。我喜欢《圣安地列斯》里的CJ。我觉得梅利（配音演员）做得太……仅仅是他说话的方式就给了他如此多的人性。所以我就是喜欢……我是说，那不是写作的功劳，是配音表演的质量，对他来说太强了。我认为迈克尔的某些方面，他如此低调，但他爱这个角色，但他给这个如此有缺陷的角色带来了如此多的人性，这个角色如此……你知道，他如此……没有原则。他出卖了所有人。你只是有点……我认为内德·卢克做得太出色了，不一定像史蒂文·奥格因为崔佛得到的那么多赞誉，崔佛也很棒。但我认为内德·卢克的角色在很大程度上支撑了那款游戏。
Dan Houser (00:49:32) He’s also tough. He just comes across as tough. I loved CJ in San Andreas. I thought Melee did such… Just the way he spoke gave him such humanity. So I just loved… I mean, it wasn’t the writing, it was the quality of the voice acting, was just so strong for him. I think aspects of Michael, he was so understated, but he loved the character, but he brought so much humanity to this character who’s so flawed, who is such a… You know, he’s so… has no principles. He sells everyone out. You just kind of… I think Ned Luke did such an amazing job and didn’t necessarily get as many plaudits as Steven Ogg got for Trevor, who was also wonderful. But I think the Ned Luke character sort of anchors that game so much.
丹·豪瑟 (00:50:13) 所以我，我以不同的方式喜欢他们所有人，但我可能最爱尼可。
Dan Houser (00:50:13) So I, I like all of them in different ways, but I probably love Niko the most.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:50:17) 当然，迈克尔来自《侠盗猎车手V》。他是三个主角之一，还有富兰克林和崔佛。你说过你引以为傲的创造和认为是伟大成就的事情，是《荒野大镖客2》，《荒野大镖客1》的结局，整个《侠盗猎车手IV》，以及《侠盗猎车手V》的中间部分，当三个角色聚在一起的时候。能谈谈《侠盗猎车手V》吗？是不是有某种程度……我不知道你是不是陀思妥耶夫斯基迷，但是——
Lex Fridman (00:50:17) And of course, Michael’s from Grand Theft Auto V. And he’s one of three protagonists with also Franklin and Trevor. And you said that of the things you’re proud of creating and you think was a great accomplishment, it was Red Dead Redemption 2, the ending of Red Dead Redemption 1, all of Grand Theft Auto IV, and the middle part of Grand Theft Auto V when the three characters come together. Can you speak to Grand Theft Auto V? Is there some degree… I don’t know if you’re a Dostoevsky guy, but-
丹·豪瑟 (00:50:48) 一点点。
Dan Houser (00:50:48) A little bit.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:50:49) 是不是三个主角的某些方面，你知道，《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》……阿廖沙、德米特里和伊万，有点像用主角来探索人性的光谱和……
Lex Fridman (00:50:49) Is there some aspect of the three protagonists, you know, Brothers Karamazov… …Alyosha, Dmitry, and Ivan, sort of using the protagonists to explore the spectrum of human nature and…
丹·豪瑟 (00:51:03) 是的，当然。
Dan Houser (00:51:03) Yes, sure.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:51:03) …只是他们之间的张力让你……他们三个本身就成了一个角色。
Lex Fridman (00:51:03) …just the tension between them that allows you… the three of them become a character in themselves.
丹·豪瑟 (00:51:10) 他们的关系。
Dan Houser (00:51:10) Their relationship.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:51:11) 他们的关系。
Lex Fridman (00:51:11) Their relationship.
丹·豪瑟 (00:51:12) 是更多……是的，那是，我认为团队之所以做得如此……《侠盗猎车手》至今仍然如此受欢迎的原因之一，是我们作为一个群体，总是在其框架内，试图在游戏之间真正创新。它是一部犯罪，一部犯罪剧。你知道，它最初在《GTA I》里是关于偷2D俯视视角汽车的犯罪模拟。我们总是在叙事上创新，在艺术方向上创新，在游戏的每个部分都创新。我认为在做了《GTA IV》之后，那是对这个大主角的歌剧式旅程，以及之后那两个额外的故事，挑战是，我们能否结合……
Dan Houser (00:51:12) Is more… Yeah, it was, it was, I think one of the reasons that the team did such… That Grand Theft Auto is still so popular is we always tried as a group to really innovate from game to game within the confines of what it was. It was a crime, it was a crime drama. You know, it began as a crime sim in GTA I about stealing 2D top-down cars. And we always tried to innovate with the narrative and innovate with the art direction, innovate with every piece of the game. And I think having done GTA IV, which was this kind of operatic journey for this big lead character, and then these two extra stories that came afterwards, the challenge was, can we combine…
丹·豪瑟 (00:51:54) 我们能否制作一款通常非常专注于一个主角的视频游戏，但拥有多个主角？以及在角色间切换的技术挑战。团队做得太出色了，我认为人们没有意识到那有多难。但我们会坐在那里抱着头，因为围绕比如，如果你做了这个，然后做那个，会发生什么？这太难了。我们为什么决定这么做？太可怕了。然后一切都组合起来了。但我想这个想法是要塑造三个感觉像是角色的角色。他们不只觉得像是哲学的，你知道，心理的化身。
Dan Houser (00:51:54) Can we make a video game which tends to be very much focused on one protagonist, but have multi-protagonists? And the technical challenge of moving from character to character. The team did such an amazing job that I don’t think people realized how hard it was. But we would sit there just sort of holding our heads because they hurt so much around, like, what happens if you do this, then do that? This is so hard. Why have we decided to do this? It’s horrible. And then it all came together. But I think the idea was to develop three characters who do feel like characters. They don’t just feel like philosophical, you know, psychological avatars.
丹·豪瑟 (00:52:34) 但其中一个是真正由自我驱动，一个是真正由本我驱动，一个是真正由努力出人头地驱动。所以是某种超我的代表，看看当他们相互碰撞时感觉如何。
Dan Houser (00:52:34) But where one is really driven by ego, one is really driven by id, and one is really driven by trying to get ahead. So some kind of representation of the superego and see how that feels when they all play off against each other.
辛勤工作与Rockstar追求卓越的文化
Hard work and Rockstar’s culture of excellence
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:52:47) Reddit上关于《GTA V》的一个点赞最多的问题来自一个粉丝：“《GTA V》是我有史以来最喜欢的游戏。我在《GTA V》和《GTA Online》的世界里花了超过1000个小时。《GTA IV》是稳居第二或第三。它从未停止让我惊叹。当你领导一个超过1000人的团队来制作像《GTA V》或《荒野大镖客2》这样的杰作时，你如何确保完美的标准始终得到满足？这怎么可能？我们知道答案不是钱，因为其他工作室也很有钱，但他们落后Rockstar二十年。”那么创造这些世界，创造这些极具吸引力的游戏和故事需要什么？
Lex Fridman (00:52:47) One of the most upvoted questions on Reddit about GTA V from a fan, “GTA V is my favorite game ever made. I spent over 1,000 hours in the world of GTA V and GTA Online. GTA IV is a hard second or third. It never ceases to impress me. When you lead a team of over 1,000 people to make a masterpiece like GTA V or Red Dead Redemption 2, how do you ensure that the bar of perfection is always met? How’s that even possible? We know the answer isn’t money, because there are other studios with a lot of money, and they are two decades behind Rockstar.” So what does it take to create these worlds, to create these incredibly compelling games and stories?
丹·豪瑟 (00:53:24) 我认为这种文化……我是说，当然我在Rockstar的时候，我是员工中的一员。文化是追求卓越，并试图提供清晰的创意方向。而且人们会，你知道……还有制造……的雄心。我认为我们觉得《GTA III》可能会非常受欢迎。对我们来说非常受欢迎意味着，老实说，能卖出两三百万份。我们认为我们在制作相当创新的东西。我们知道我们在制作创新的东西，但我们不知道人们是否会理解它有多创新。然后当我们有机会制作《罪恶都市》并试图重复成功时，我想从那时起，团队就非常有动力去制作更好的东西。
Dan Houser (00:53:24) I think the cult… I mean, certainly when I was at Rockstar, I was a worker amongst workers. The culture was one of excellence and tried to provide creative clarity. And people would just, you know… And also an ambition to make… I think we thought GTA III could be really popular. Really popular to us meant, quite honestly, it’s going to sell two or three million copies. And we thought we were making something pretty innovative. We knew we were making something innovative, but we didn’t know if people would understand how innovative it was. And then when we got the chance to make Vice City and to try and repeat it, I think every time from then on, the team was very driven to make something better.
丹·豪瑟 (00:54:10) 并且利用，这远在我们拥有大量资源之前，利用时间和我们拥有的任何金钱，总是在屏幕上呈现出令人印象深刻的东西，总是思考我们能做些什么来进一步推动视频游戏媒介和构建虚拟世界媒介。那一直是……既有清晰的，“这就是我们要做的。这就是游戏的基调。这就是功能如何融入其中，以及为什么这些功能行得通，那些功能行不通。”因为从根本上说，到2002年，你几乎可以把任何你想要的功能放进游戏里。这不是技术限制。只是要让它具有凝聚力。然后也是每个人都致力于追求卓越的文化。
Dan Houser (00:54:10) And to use, this was long before we had lots of resources, to use time and whatever money we had to always put impressive stuff on the screen, always think about what we can do to push the medium of video games and the medium of building fake worlds further. And that was always… there was, it was both clarity of, “Here’s what we’re trying to do. Here’s what the tone of the game is going to be. Here’s how features will fit into that, and so why these features would work and these features wouldn’t work.” Because fundamentally by 2002, you could put pretty much any feature into a game you wanted. It wasn’t a technical limitation. It was just making it cohesive. And then it was also just everyone committing to a culture of excellence.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:54:55) 纳维德·坎萨里，一位获奖导演和虚拟现实游戏制作人——……曾与你合作过多个《侠盗猎车手》游戏，高度评价了他与你共事的时光。引述：“我们总是工作到筋疲力尽，但这并非自上而下的要求。山姆和丹总是卷起袖子，他们总是在那里。他们从未让我们孤立无援。我们都认为我们在制作牛逼的东西，所以我们工作多辛苦都没关系。”所以我肯定有一些艰苦的磨砺。
Lex Fridman (00:54:55) Navid Khansari, an award-winning director and virtual reality game maker- …who worked with you on a number of Grand Theft Auto games spoke highly about his time working with you. Quote, “We always worked ourselves to the bone, but it wasn’t coming from the top down. Sam and Dan always rolled up their sleeves and they were always there. They never left us holding the bag. We all thought we were making badass shit, so it didn’t matter how hard we worked.” So I’m sure there were some tough grinds.
丹·豪瑟 (00:55:24) 我认为完成它肯定很艰苦，但也非常有回报。你完成了某件事，你创造了某个东西。那种感觉，如你所说，真的，真的不可思议。我是说，有时也会感觉有点空虚，因为当你完成后，你会想，“那我的生活就没什么了，”然后你必须……你知道，但任何你承担的重大任务都是这样。我不认为有……你知道，当你那么努力工作的时候，你不可能有良好的工作/生活平衡。但事实是你并非一直那么努力工作，所以你只需要…………稍微不同地管理一下。
Dan Houser (00:55:24) I think finishing it is certainly tough, but it also is intensely rewarding. And you get something done, and you’ve made something. And that feeling is, as you say, really, really incredible. I mean, it can sometimes feel a bit empty as well because when you’re finished, you’re like, “Then my life’s got nothing to it,” and then you have to… you know, but that’s the same with any big undertaking that you take. I don’t think there are… You know, when you’re working that hard, you do not have a good work/life balance. But the truth is you’re not working that hard all of the time, so you just have to… …Just manage it slightly differently.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:55:55) 伙计，这真是关于人类体验的一个沉重的事情。我和奥运金牌得主们聊过，他们中很多人在赢得金牌后都面临着真正的抑郁。
Lex Fridman (00:55:55) Man, that’s such a heavy thing about the human experience. I’ve talked to Olympic gold medal winners and many of them face real depression after they win the gold medal.