Telegram创始人帕维尔·杜罗夫2025年10月播客实录 | 中英文完整版精译 Part4

书童按：本篇是帕维尔·杜罗夫（Pavel Durov）于2025年10月接受Lex Fridman的播客采访实录，Pavel是端到端加密通信软件Telegram的创始人兼CEO。其采访中涉及精简团队、高度自动化、法国被捕、审查、企业家的困境等话题，精彩绝伦，令人击节称赞。初稿采用AI机器翻译，经自动化中英混排，书童仅做简单校对及批注。原稿中英文混排近7万字，书童将分为Part1-4发出，本篇是最后一部分，以飨诸君。

爱德华·斯诺登

Edward Snowden

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:49:26) 你提到了爱德华·斯诺登。很久以前，你曾想和他合作，也许是分享专业知识，以全面了解实现网络安全所需的一切。你怎么看待他的案件？你从他揭露的事情中学到了什么教训，也许更广泛地说，你认为他的工作对世界产生了什么影响？

Lex Fridman (02:49:26) You mentioned Edward Snowden. A long time ago you wanted to work together with him, perhaps to share expertise, to understand the full realm of what it takes to achieve cybersecurity. What do you make of his case? What lessons do you learn from what he has uncovered and maybe even broadly, what impact has his work had on the world, do you think?

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:49:53) 嗯，主要的教训是，并非所有事情都像表面看起来那样。你会发现——这是我当时感到相当震惊的一点——许多你认为是安全和密码学专家的人，最终都以某种方式成为了 NSA 的特工，推广有缺陷的加密标准。你最终会发现，那个本应在监视其人民方面受到限制的政府，实际上并不认为自己受到那么多限制。这对世界来说是非常有价值的认识。

Pavel Durov (02:49:53) Well, the main lesson is not everything is what it seems. You would discover and this is something that I found quite shocking at the time, that a lot of people who you thought were security and cryptography experts ended up being agents of the NSA in one way or the other, promoting flawed encryption standards. You wouldn’t end up discovering that your government that was supposed to be limited in how it can surveil its people, actually doesn’t consider itself that limited. That was very valuable for the world to understand.

(02:50:50) 我想这也可能是一个教训，表明我们人类没有把握好平衡。9/11 事件造成了一种局面，政府必须做出回应，它确实回应了，但它反应过度了。最终侵蚀了某些基本权利和自由，包括隐私权，因为政府总是想扩大自己的权力，而且政府总是试图以牺牲公民为代价来做到这一点。这就造成了”治疗比疾病本身更糟糕”的情况。我认为爱德华的所作所为非常勇敢。我没能和他合作。不管谁亲眼见到他，我们都保持联系，我们有时会沟通，但我们并不亲近。我仍然认为他的所作所为值得称赞。我希望有一天我们能见面。

(02:50:50) I guess it also can be a lesson demonstrated that we humans don’t get the balance right. 9/11 created a situation when the government had to respond and it responded, but it overreacted. It ended up eroding certain basic rights and freedoms including the right to privacy because the government always wants to increase its powers and the government always tries to do it at the expense of citizens. You have the situation when the cure is worse than the disease. I think it was incredibly brave to do what Edward did. I didn’t get to work with him. Whoever see him in person, we keep in touch, we sometimes communicate, but we’re not close. I still, I think what he did is laudable. I hope someday we meet.

情报机构

Intelligence agencies

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:51:59) 你自己也面对过来自各种政府、情报机构的全力施压。有没有你害怕的情报机构？有没有你害怕的政府？

Lex Fridman (02:51:59) You yourself have faced the full force of various governments, intelligence agencies. Is there any intelligence agency you’re afraid of? Any government you’re afraid of?

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:52:15) 我认为应该同等程度地害怕，或者从某种角度说，同等程度地不害怕。并不是说某个情报机构能杀你，而另一个不能。

Pavel Durov (02:52:15) I think they should be equally afraid of or equally not afraid of, in a way. It’s not that intelligence services can kill you and the other can’t kill you.

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:52:26) 他们都能杀你？

Lex Fridman (02:52:26) They all can kill you?

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:52:27) 我猜他们都能以某种方式杀我，但这取决于我是否害怕死亡。

Pavel Durov (02:52:27) I guess they all can kill me one way or the other, but it’s a matter of whether I’m afraid of death.

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:52:34) 这回到了我们对话的开头，我想，多次提到了。总的来说，你在压力面前是无畏的。

Lex Fridman (02:52:34) This goes back to the beginning of our conversation, I think, multiple times. You’re in general fearless in the face of the pressure.

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:52:42) 这是个非常大胆的说法，但我已经证明自己抗压能力相当强，这并不是说你没有恐惧。你可以有恐惧，但你要克服这种恐惧。我不认为在这一点上，有任何事情能发生并改变我的行事方式。

Pavel Durov (02:52:42) That would be a very bold statement, but I proved to be quite stress resilient and it’s not that you don’t have fear. You can have fear, but you overcome this fear. I don’t think there is anything at this point that can happen to change the way I am.

伊朗和俄罗斯的政府压力

Iran and Russia government pressure

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:53:11) 从 2011 年到 2014 年，你经历了很多，来自政府的压力，你拒绝屈服，这促使你创建了 Telegram 并放弃了 VK。然后在 2018 年，俄罗斯和伊朗决定禁止 Telegram。这是另一个施压的例子。你能带我回顾一下 2018 年的那段经历吗？

Lex Fridman (02:53:11) You went through a lot from 2011 to 2014, government pressure that you refused to give into, that led you to create Telegram and let go of VK. Then in 2018, Russia and Iran decided to ban Telegram. That was another example of pressure. Can you take me through that saga in 2018?

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:53:35) 2018 年，Telegram 开始流行起来。我想我们当时大约有 2 亿用户，并且在伊朗、俄罗斯和其他一些国家越来越受欢迎，这些国家的人们有时需要向政府隐瞒一些事情。在伊朗，人们使用 Telegram 抗议政府。他们拥有这些庞大的频道，用来组织抗议活动，最终政府无法控制。他们决定禁止 Telegram。但人们仍然会使用 VPN 继续使用它。这并没有帮助。政府投入巨资开发自己的通讯应用。他们有几个团队竞争成为国内主导通讯应用的称号。所有这些应用都失败了。人们仍然更喜欢 Telegram。有趣的是，伊朗禁止了 Telegram，但 WhatsApp 却没有被禁。

Pavel Durov (02:53:35) In 2018 Telegram started to become popular. I think we had something like 200 million users and it increasingly became popular in places like Iran and Russia and other countries where sometimes people have something to hide from the government. In Iran, people use Telegram to protest against the government. They had these huge channels that they would use to organize the protests and eventually the government couldn’t keep up. They decided to ban Telegram. People would still keep using it though using VPNs. It didn’t help. The government invested a lot in coming up with their own messaging app. They had several teams competing for the title of the nationally reigning messaging app. All these apps failed. People still preferred Telegram. Interestingly, Iran banned Telegram, but WhatsApp wasn’t banned.

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:55:01) WhatsApp 没有被禁。或者至少他们在不久之后就解除了对 WhatsApp 的禁令。与此同时，从 2017 年中或年底开始，俄罗斯要求 Telegram 向他们交出加密密钥。他们认为这些东西是存在的，某种能让他们读取 Telegram 上每个人，或者至少是俄罗斯境内每个 Telegram 用户信息的东西。我们告诉他们，这是不可能的。如果你们必须禁止我们，那就禁止吧。这就是他们在 2018 年春天最终做的事情。那段时间相当有趣，因为他们试图封锁我们的 IP 地址，但我们对此有所准备，我们开发了这项技术，使我们能够轮换 IP 地址，每当审查机构封锁我们现有的地址时，就用新的地址替换。而且这完全是自动化的。我们拥有数百万个 IP 地址。我们会不断消耗它们。我们发起了一个名为”数字抵抗”的运动，世界各地的系统管理员和工程师，无论是在俄罗斯境内还是境外，都可以建立自己的代理服务器和自己的 IP 地址，供 Telegram 依赖以绕过审查。

Pavel Durov (02:55:01) WhatsApp wasn’t banned. Or at least they unbanned WhatsApp soon after. At the same time starting in mid-2017 or late-2017, Russia demanded that Telegram hands them the encryption keys. They thought these things exist, something that would allow them to read messages of every person on Telegram or at least every person on Telegram in Russia. And we told them, it’s impossible. If you have to ban us, ban us. And this is what they ended up doing in spring 2018. And that was quite fun because they were trying to block our IP addresses, but we were prepared for that and we came up with this technology that allowed us to rotate IP addresses, replacing them with new ones every time the sensor blocks our existing addresses. And then it was completely automated. We had millions of IP addresses. We would be burning through them. We set up this movement called Digital Resistance when system administrators and engineers all around the world, both inside and outside Russia could set up their own proxy servers and their own IP addresses for Telegram to rely on in order to bypass censorship.

苹果公司

Apple

(02:56:41) 我们最终为此花费了，我想，数百万美元。结果，那里的审查机构快疯了。他们会封锁 IP 地址和大型 IP 地址子网，巨大的子网，这导致了一个奇怪的情况：该国部分基础设施开始瘫痪。人们试图在超市支付购物款，但什么都用不了，因为俄罗斯的审查机构封锁了太多 IP 地址，而其中一些子网被用于托管其他不相关的服务。甚至一些俄罗斯的社交网络和媒体也受到了影响。银行也是。所以他们不得不开始更有选择性地对付我们的反审查工具。

(02:56:41) We ended up spending I think, millions of dollars on that. And as a result, the sensor got crazy there. They would ban IP addresses and large subnets of IP addresses and huge subnets, which resulted in a weird situation where parts of the country’s infrastructure started to go down. People were trying to pay for groceries in the supermarkets and nothing would work because the Russian sensor blocked too many IP addresses and some of the subnets were used to host other unrelated services. Even some Russian social networks and media got affected. Banks. So they had to start being more selective in how they combat our anti-censorship tools.

(02:57:41) 我们当时遇到的最大阻力来自苹果公司。苹果不允许我们在应用商店更新 Telegram，至少说了四个星期，我们必须先与俄罗斯达成协议，而俄罗斯说这是不可能的。他们说：”我们将允许你在全球范围内推送 Telegram 的更新，除了俄罗斯。”我们不想这样做。几乎失去了希望。在某个时刻，我说：”也许这是唯一的办法。也许我们应该退出俄罗斯市场。停止允许俄罗斯用户从应用商店下载这个应用。”这将意味着一切都结束了。我们在 2018 年帮助组织了一些在莫斯科捍卫 Telegram、隐私和言论自由的抗议活动。当时有人放飞纸飞机，很有意思。

(02:57:41) The biggest resistance we got at the time was from Apple. Apple didn’t allow us to update Telegram in the app store saying for at least four weeks that we have to come to an agreement with Russia first who said it’s not possible. They said, “We will allow you to push your update for Telegram worldwide except for Russia.” We didn’t want to do that. Almost lost hope. At some point I said, “Maybe this is the only way. Maybe we should leave the Russian market. Stop allowing users from Russia to download the app from the app store.” Which would mean it’s over. We helped organize certain protests in defense of Telegram and privacy and freedom of speech in 2018 in Moscow. There was hilarious people flying paper airplanes.

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (02:58:47) 我看到了。

Lex Fridman (02:58:47) I saw that.

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (02:58:49) 在某个时刻，我决定必须发表声明。我必须说苹果站在了审查者一边。我们在这里试图做正确的事，但没有苹果，我们做不了多少，因为人们再也无法下载你的应用了。我在我的频道上发布了这个消息，然后《纽约时报》报道了这件事，并配上了抗议者放飞纸飞机的图片。苹果在那篇报道中受到了批评，我想，嗯，苹果或许应该回到历史的正确一边来。我等了一天，又等了两天。与此同时，由于我们一个多月无法更新 Telegram，它开始出现问题，因为新版本的 iOS 发布了，使得旧版本的 Telegram 过时了。一些曾经好用的功能停止工作，世界各地的用户开始受到影响。与俄罗斯无关的世界其他地区的用户也遇到了 Telegram 的问题。所以情况真的很严重，我对我的团队说，你们知道吗，如果到今天下午 6 点……我想那是个星期五。如果情况没有变化，苹果不允许我们推送 Telegram 版本，那我们就忘了俄罗斯市场吧。我们继续前进，因为世界其他地区更重要。这很遗憾，但我们又能做什么呢？

Pavel Durov (02:58:49) And at some point I decided I have to make a statement. I have to say that Apple sided with the censor. That we are trying to do the right thing here, but without Apple we can’t do much because people can’t download your app anymore. I published it in my channel and then New York Times picked it up with the picture of the protesters flying paper airplanes. Apple was criticized in that story and I thought, well, Apple should probably come back to the right side of history here. And I waited for one day and two days. In the meantime, since we’ve been unable to update Telegram for more than a month, it started to fall apart because the new version of iOS came out and it made the old versions of Telegram obsolete. Some features that used to work stop working and users all over the world start to suffer. People that had nothing to do with Russia from other parts of the world experienced issues with Telegram. So it was really serious and I said to my team, you know what if by 6:00 P.M. today … I think it was a Friday. Nothing changes and Apple doesn’t allow us to push the version of Telegram through, let’s just forget about the Russian market. Let’s keep going because the rest of the world is more important. It’s sad, but what can we do?

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:00:44) 顺便说一句，这剥夺了所有想要抗议的人、所有想要在俄罗斯交谈的人，以及他们在那个地区最流行的通讯应用中发声的能力。

Lex Fridman (03:00:44) Which by the way, removes all the people that want to protest all the people that want to talk in Russia and removes their ability to have a voice in the most popular messaging app in that part of the world.

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:00:55) 是的。神奇的是，在我计划将 Telegram 从俄罗斯应用商店下架以便在全球推进前的 15 分钟，苹果联系我们说：”没问题。你的更新已获批准。”我们得以继续与审查机构玩这种捉迷藏的游戏，通过数字抵抗绕过审查。在伊朗，情况有点不同，因为我们意识到尝试提供所有这些 IP 地址成本太高，而且此外，不清楚我们是否会违反制裁制度。所以我们做了别的事情。我们为那些为 Telegram 设置代理服务器的人创造了经济激励。任何人，比如一个伊朗工程师，都可以建立一个代理服务器，在伊朗用户中分发其地址，任何通过这个人的代理连接的人都能看到一个置顶聊天，那是系统管理员、代理所有者放在那里的广告。这样你就可以通过你的代理盈利。这就创造了一个市场，导致伊朗人自己解决了问题。结果，我们保住了数百万甚至数千万的伊朗用户。直到今天，我想 Telegram 在伊朗仍然被禁，但我们可能仍有大约 5000 万来自那个国家的人依赖 Telegram。

Pavel Durov (03:00:55) Yes. Magically 15 minutes to the time I was planning to remove Telegram from the Russian app store in order to proceed globally, Apple reached out to us and said, “It’s okay. Your update is approved.” And we managed to keep playing this hide and seek game with the sensor bypassing censorship through digital resistance. In Iran, it was a little bit different because we realized it would’ve been too expensive to try to come up with all these IP addresses, and in addition, it was not clear whether we wouldn’t be in violation of the sanctions regime. So we did something else. We created an economic incentive for people who would set up proxy servers for Telegram. Any person, say an Iranian engineer could come up with a proxy server, distribute its address among users in Iran, and whoever connected through the proxy of this person would be able to see a pinned chat, an ad placed there by the system administrator, the owner of the proxy. And this is how you can monetize your proxy. So it created this market which resulted in Iranians fixing their own problem. And as a result, we kept millions or maybe 10s of millions of Iranian users. Up until this day I think Telegram is still banned in Iran today, but we probably have something like 50 million people relying on Telegram from that country.

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:03:08) 所以人们总能找到办法绕过。

Lex Fridman (03:03:08) So that people find a way around.

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:03:10) 人们总能找到办法绕过。

Pavel Durov (03:03:10) People find a way around.

中毒事件

Poisoning

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:03:11) 这太有才了。听到这个真是太好了。我必须问你这件事。在和你相处了许多天之后，我了解到一些你当时从未谈过、至今也未谈过的事情，那就是 2018 年曾有一次针对你的暗杀企图，使用的似乎是投毒。我认为对我来说，这显示了这场为维护地球上所有人言论自由的斗争的严肃性。我必须说，如果你告诉我这个故事，对我来说意义重大。

Lex Fridman (03:03:11) That’s ingenious. That’s really great to hear. I have to ask you about this. After having spent many days with you, I learned of something that you’ve never talked about at the time, have not talked about to this day, that there was an assassination attempt on you using what appears to be poisoning in 2018. I think to me, it showed this seriousness of this fight to uphold the freedom of speech for everyone, for all people of earth that you’re doing. I have to say it would mean a lot to me if you tell me this story.

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:03:55) 嗯，这是我从未公开谈论过的事情，因为我不想让人们惊慌，尤其是在那个时候，那是 2018 年春天。我们正试图为 TON（一个区块链项目）筹集资金，与各种风险投资公司和投资者合作。与此同时，有几个国家试图禁止 Telegram。所以那并不是我开始分享任何与我个人健康相关的事情的最佳时机。但那是一段难以忘怀的经历。我从不生病。我相信我有完美的健康。我很少头痛或严重咳嗽。我不吃药，因为我不需要吃药。那是我生命中唯一一次，我认为我快要死了。

Pavel Durov (03:03:55) Well, this is something I never talked about publicly because I didn’t want people to freak out particularly at the time, it was spring 2018. We were trying to raise funds for TON, a blockchain project working with all kinds of VCs and investors. In the meantime, we had a couple of countries trying to ban Telegram. So it wasn’t exactly the best moment for me to start sharing anything related to my personal health. But that was something that is hard to forget. I never fall ill. I believe I have perfect health. I very rarely have headaches or bad cough. I don’t take pills because I don’t have to take pills. And that was the only instant in my life when I think I was dying.

(03:05:05) 我回到家，打开我租的联排别墅的门。我有一个奇怪的邻居，他在门附近给我留了点什么。一小时后，当我已经在床上时……我当时一个人住。我感觉非常糟糕。全身疼痛。我试图起床去洗手间，但在去的路上，我感觉身体的功能开始关闭。先是视力和听力，然后我呼吸困难。一切都伴随着非常剧烈的疼痛。心脏、胃、所有血管。这很难解释，但我唯一确定的是，是的，就是这样了。

(03:05:05) I came back home, opened the door of my townhouse, the place I rented. I had this weird neighbor and he left something for me there around the door. And one hour after when I was already in my bed … So I was living alone. I felt very bad. I felt pain all over my body. I tried to get up and go to the bathroom, but while I was going there, I felt that functions of my body started to switch off. First the eyesight and hearing, then I had difficulty breathing. Everything accompanied by very acute pain. Heart, stomach, all blood vessels. It’s a difficult thing to explain, but one thing I was certain about is, yeah, this is it.

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:06:25) 你以为你要死了。

Lex Fridman (03:06:25) You thought you were going to die.

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:06:26) 是的。就是这样。因为我无法呼吸。我什么也看不见。非常痛苦。我想，结束了。我想，嗯，我度过了美好的一生。我设法完成了一些事情。然后我瘫倒在地板上，但我不记得了，因为疼痛掩盖了一切。第二天我发现自己躺在地板上。天已经亮了，我站不起来。我虚弱极了。我看着我的手臂和身体，全身的血管都破裂了。这种事从未发生在我身上。之后的两周我无法走路。我待在我的住处，决定不告诉我团队里的大多数人，因为 again，我不想让他们担心。但那很艰难。那真的很艰难。

Pavel Durov (03:06:26) Yeah. This is it. Because I couldn’t breathe. I couldn’t see anything. Was very painful. I think it’s over. I thought, well, I had a good life. I managed to accomplish a few things. And then I collapsed on the floor, but I don’t remember it because the pain covered everything. I found myself on the floor the next day. Was already bright and I couldn’t stand up. I was super weak. I looked at my arms and my body, blood vessels were broken all over my body. Something like this never happened to me. I couldn’t walk for two weeks after. I stayed at my place and I decided not to tell most of my team about it because again, I didn’t want them to worry. But it was tough. That was tough.

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:07:35) 那是否让你对你所走的道路感到害怕，意思是所有的政府、所有的情报机构、所有我们提到过的人？这就像你在玩一个电子游戏。你从 VK 开始，只是试图构建一个能够扩展的东西，突然你发现有人 DDoS 攻击安全性、基础设施的完整性，然后你意识到有政治，然后你意识到有地缘政治，所有这些力量都有兴趣控制通信渠道，而你只是一个好奇的人，创建了一个让地球上每个人都能交谈的平台，突然你意识到有很多人在攻击你。这如何改变了你的看法？这是否让你对世界更加害怕？

Lex Fridman (03:07:35) Did that make you afraid of the road you are walking, meaning all the governments, all the intelligence agencies, all the people like we mentioned? It’s like you’re playing a video game. You started with VK where you’re just trying to build a thing that scales and all of a sudden you find out there’s DDoS attacking the security, the integrity of the infrastructure, and then you realize there’s politics and then you realize there’s geopolitics and all of these forces are interested in controlling channels of communication, and you’re just a curious guy who created a platform for everybody on the earth to talk, and all of a sudden you realize there’s a lot of people attacking you. How did that change your view? Did that make you more scared of the world?

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:08:42) 有趣的是，一点也不。如果说有什么不同的话，在那之后我感到更加自由了。那不是我第一次以为我要死了。在那之前的几年，我也曾有过一次经历，当时我也认为会有不好的事情发生在我身上，也与我工作有关。但在你经历了这样的事情之后，你会觉得你活着的每一天都是额外赚来的。所以从某种意义上说，你很久以前就死了，你得到的每一个新的一天都是一份礼物。

Pavel Durov (03:08:42) Interestingly, not at all. If anything, I felt even more free after that. It wasn’t the first time I thought I was going to die. I had an experience when I assumed something bad is going to happen to me a few years before that also in relation to my work. But after you survive something like this, you feel like you’re living on bonus time. So in a way, you died a long time ago, and every new day you get is a gift.

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:09:30) 是红利。

Lex Fridman (03:09:30) Is a bonus.

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:09:31) 是的。

Pavel Durov (03:09:31) Yes.

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:09:32) 你提到的第一次，是否与 VK 面临政府压力时的复杂情况有关？压力越来越大，你必须想办法应对，你明白那一刻你正在失去对 VK 的控制。

Lex Fridman (03:09:32) And the first time you’re referring to would that have to do with the complexity that was happening with the pressure from the government on VK? The increasing pressure and you had to figure out what to do, and you understood that you’re losing control of VK that moment.

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:09:52) 第一次这样的经历是在 2011 年 12 月。2011 年 12 月，莫斯科街头发生了大规模抗议。他们不相信俄罗斯国家杜马选举结果的公正性。我记得 2011 年，我还住在俄罗斯，经营着 VK。那时还没有 Telegram。所以政府要求我们从 VK 上撤下纳瓦利内的反对派团体，这些团体有数十万成员，并被用来组织这次抗议。我非常公开地拒绝了这样做。我只是认为这样做不对。人们有集会的权利。我嘲笑了向我提出这一要求的检察官。他们公布了要求的扫描件。我旁边放了一张一只穿着连帽衫、吐着舌头的狗的照片。我说……这就是我对检察官要求禁止反对派团体的正式回应。那一刻非常有趣。但随后有武装警察试图进入我的公寓，那一刻我想了很多事情。我问自己，我做出了正确的选择吗？我得出的结论是，我做出了正确的选择，然后我问自己，接下来逻辑上会发生什么？我意识到他们很可能要把我关进监狱，那么我打算怎么做？我问自己。

Pavel Durov (03:09:52) The first of these instances was in December 2011. December 2011 you had this huge protest on the streets of Moscow. They didn’t trust in the integrity of the election results to the state Duma in Russia. I remember 2011, I still lived in Russia running VK. There was no Telegram. So the government demanded that we take down the opposition groups of Navalny from VK that had hundreds of thousands of members and that were used to organize this protest. And I very publicly refused to do that. I just decided it’s not the right thing to do. People have the right to assemble. And I mocked the Prosecutor who handed me that demand. They put out a scan of it. And next to it a photo of a dog in a hoodie with its tongue out. And I said … This is my official response to the prosecutor’s request to ban the opposition groups. That was very funny at the moment. But then I had armed policemen trying to get into my apartment, and I thought about many things at that moment. I asked myself, did I make the right choice? And I came to the conclusion that I made the right choice and I asked myself, what would be the next thing that would logically follow from this? And I realized they’re probably going to put me in prison, so what am I going to do about it? I asked myself.

(03:12:04) 我告诉自己，我要绝食至死。这可能很多男人都有这种想法。他们愿意为他人或他们坚信的某些原则而死。我在这里并不孤单。我猜爱德华·斯诺登也准备好了赴死，或者其他像阿桑奇这样的人。同样，在那一刻，我意识到没有办法安全地沟通。我需要告诉我哥哥发生了什么。他们很可能也在追查他。我如何在不背叛他的情况下告诉他？因为在 2011 年，记得 WhatsApp 已经存在了。我想他们是在 2009 年推出的，但它完全没有加密。所有消息在传输中都是明文，这意味着即使是你的系统管理员，更不用说你的运营商，都能访问你的消息。直到 Telegram 开始推动加密之后，其他应用才突然想起来隐私并非他们的 DNA（正如 WhatsApp 创始人著名地声称的那样），但在 2011 年，这一定是一个休眠的基因。

(03:12:04) And I told myself, I’m going to starve myself to death. It’s something that probably many men have. They’re ready to die for other people or certain principles they strongly believe in. I’m not alone here. I guess Edward Snowden was ready to die as well, or some other people like Assange. Also, at that moment, I realized there’s no way to communicate securely. I need to tell my brother what’s going on. They’re probably going after him. How do I tell him without betraying him? Because in 2011, remember WhatsApp was already there. I think they launched in 2009, but it had zero encryption. All messages were plain text in transit, meaning that even your system administrator, let alone your carrier had access to your messages it was only after Telegram started this push for encryption that this other apps suddenly remembered that privacy wasn’t their DNA as WhatsApp founders famously stated, but it must have been a dormant gene in 2011.

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:13:28) 是的。是的。

Lex Fridman (03:13:28) Yeah. Yeah.

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:13:33) 在 2011 年，没有办法以安全的方式发送消息。我也告诉自己，如果我能活过这次，我一定要推出一款安全的通讯应用。不知何故，结果并没有太糟。我被传唤到检察官办公室，回答了一些愚蠢的问题，比我最近在法国调查案中必须回答的问题要少。但那是结束的开始。很明显，我将无法按照我想要的方式运营 VK。就在那时，我收拾好背包，开始等待。我搬到了酒店，意识到任何一天我都可以离开这个国家，我继续运营 VK。我开始设计 Telegram 并组建团队。但我知道我在俄罗斯的日子不多了。

Pavel Durov (03:13:33) In 2011, there was no way to send a message in secure way. And I also told myself, if I’m going to survive this, I’m definitely launching a secure messaging app. Somehow it ended up not being too bad. I was summoned to the Prosecutor, answered some silly questions, fewer questions that I had to answer more recently in the French investigation case. But it was the beginning of the end. It was clear that there’s no way I’m going to be allowed to run VK the way I wanted it to run. That was the moment I packed my backpack and just started to wait. I moved to hotel and realized any day I can leave the country, I kept running VK. I started to design Telegram and assembling the team. But I knew my days in Russia were numbered.

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:15:01) 首先，我真的必须代表我自己，我想还有数百万人，也许是数亿人，也许是整个地球，感谢你在那些情况下将生命置于危险之中。我认为言论自由是人类繁荣的基础。它依赖于那些愿意为自己的原则付出一切的人。所以谢谢你。稍作暂停。我需要去下洗手间。好了，我们回来了。再次感谢，我们度过了超长的一天，你愿意花这么多小时陪我，谢谢你坚持下来。我们能行的。现在已经很晚了。

Lex Fridman (03:15:01) First I really have to say for myself from I think millions, maybe hundreds of millions, maybe the entirety of Earth, thank you for putting your life on the line in those cases, I think freedom of speech is fundamental to the flourishing of humanity. And it depends on people willing to put everything on the line for their principles. So thank you. Quick pause. I need a bathroom break. All right, we’re back. And once again, we had a super long day and the fact that you would spend many hours with me, thank you for powering through. We got this. It’s already late at night.

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:15:45) 谢谢你这么做。

Pavel Durov (03:15:45) Thanks for doing this.

莱克斯·弗里德曼 (03:15:47) 好的。那么，有越来越多的迹象表明，我认为从我在网上看到的事情来看，俄罗斯正在考虑禁止 Telegram。首先，你认为这可能会发生吗？你认为这可能会对人类产生什么影响？总的来说，你对此有什么看法？

Lex Fridman (03:15:47) Okay. So there is increasing indication I think from things I’ve seen online that Russia is considering banning Telegram. First of all, do you think this might happen and what effect do you think this might have on humanity and in general what do you think about this?

帕维尔·杜罗夫 (03:16:07) 这绝对有可能发生。如你所说，有一些迹象表明。已经有一些部分禁止它的尝试。Telegram 在俄罗斯的部分地区，如达吉斯坦，已经无法访问。如果俄罗斯恢复其禁止 Telegram 的尝试，那将是非常可悲的，因为目前它被其民众用于各种目的，不仅仅是个人通信或经济商业活动，而且它也是俄罗斯人民能够获取独立信息来源的唯一平台。如果你想想像 BBC 或其他任何非俄罗斯的信息来源这样的媒体机构，它们在俄罗斯只能通过 Telegram 频道的形式访问。它们的网站被禁了。其他一些社交媒体网站也被禁了。如你所说，有迹象表明俄罗斯正计划将用户从现有的通讯应用（如 WhatsApp 和 Telegram）迁移到他们自己本土开发的工具上，这当然对政府是完全透明的，并且不允许独立于政府的声音表达自己。

Pavel Durov (03:16:07) It can definitely happen. As you said, there are certain indications. There have been certain attempts to partially ban it. Telegram is no longer accessible in parts of Russia such as Dagestan and will be incredibly sad if Russia restores its attempts to ban Telegram because currently it’s been used by its population for all kinds of purposes, not just personal communication or economic business activities, but also it’s the only platform which allows the Russian people to access independent sources of information. If you think about media outlets such as BBC or any other non-Russian of source of information, they’re only accessible in Russia through Telegram in the form of Telegram channels. Their websites banned. Some other social media sites banned. And as you said, there are indications that Russia is planning to migrate users from existing messaging apps such as WhatsApp and Telegram to their own homegrown tool, which would of course be fully transparent to the government and wouldn’t allow voices independent from the government to express themselves.

(03:17:53) 这无疑是一个令人担忧的趋势。我们在那些不以保护言论自由闻名的国家看到这些尝试，但在那些以保护自由而闻名的国家中也越来越多地看到这种情况。这就创造了一个恶性循环，因为从某种程度上说，欧洲国家试图在听起来合法的借口下打击言论自由，比如打击错误信息或选举干预，他们创造了先例，并使限制言论自由合法化，然后这些先例又被威权政权利用，他们会说在像中东或伊朗这样的地方，他们做的并没有什么不同。限制不符合主流叙事的言论现在已成为常态。

(03:17:53) It’s certainly an alarming trend. We see these attempts in countries that are not famous for protecting freedom of speech, but also increasingly in countries that have been known to protect freedoms. And this creates this vicious circle because in a way, European countries trying to fight freedom of speech under pretexts that sound legitimate, such as combating misinformation or election interference, they create precedents and they legitimize restrictions to freedom of speech, which then in turn be used by authoritarian regimes and they would say in places like BigEast or Iran that they’re not doing anything different. It’s the norm now to restrict voices that don’t go in line with the narrative.

(03:19:11) 这很可悲，因为让我们的生活变得有趣的事情之一，就是能够体验到不同人、不同观点的丰富性。你限制了人们的自由，你就不可避免地减缓了经济增长、幸福水平、人们为社会做贡献的方式以及人们表达自己的方式。我个人认为，在任何国家，尤其是像俄罗斯这样的大国，禁止像 Telegram 这样的工具将是一个巨大的错误，因为俄罗斯人民是极具才华和韧性的民族。他们是最早开始利用 Telegram 实施的一些最新创新的人群之一。他们是早期采用者。我想说，他们和美国人，也许还有东欧其他地方的人，比如乌克兰人和东南亚人，他们是最早开始使用我们推出的任何新功能的人群之一。他们对创新有着极其强烈的渴望。

(03:19:11) That’s sad because one of the things that makes our life interesting is this abundance of different viewpoints of different people that we get to experience. You limit the freedom of people, you inevitably decelerate economic growth, level of happiness, the way people can contribute to the society, the way people can express themselves. I personally think it would be a huge mistake to ban a tool like Telegram in any country, particularly a large country such as Russia, because the Russian people are incredibly talented and resilient people. They’re among the first to start utilizing some of these recent innovations that Telegram implements. They’re the early adopters. I’d say them and also the Americans, perhaps other people from Eastern Europe like Ukrainians and Southeast Asians, they’re among the first people to start using any new addition that we launch. They’re incredibly hungry for innovation.

Lex Fridman (03:20:32) 所以说了这么多，作为宣传的一部分，总的来说，到处都有对你的攻击。有各种误导信息。我读了很多东西，我认为这些是系统性地在对你撒谎，从各个角度撒谎关于你，撒谎关于Telegram。你为什么会被所有人攻击这么多？

Lex Fridman (03:20:32) So all that said, as part of the propaganda and in general, there’s attacks on you all over the place. There’s misinformation. I’ve read a bunch of things that are, I think in a systematic way, lying about you, lying about telegram from all angles. Why do you get attacked so much by everybody?

Pavel Durov (03:20:56) 因为保护言论自由。这不是交很多朋友的方式。因为你不可避免地会发现自己处于一种情况，你会保护任何国家当前政府的反对派的言论自由。然后政府的最初反应，以及一种非常基本的本能反应，就是说我们的立场不应该被信任和允许表达，因为他们实际上是某个外国对手、某种地缘政治力量的特工，想要摧毁我们的国家。这是历史上每一个专制政权都使用的伎俩。你看看斯大林主义的俄罗斯或纳粹德国，毛主义的大东，他们总是使用同样的伎俩，说“我们需要限制你的言论自由，因为这些伪装成反对派的人实际上是另一个想要接管的国家特工。”这就是为什么他们的公民忘记了他们的自由。现在你越来越看到在自由国家也有类似的尝试。

Pavel Durov (03:20:56) For protecting freedom of speech. It’s not a way to make a lot of friends. Because you would inevitably find yourself in a situation where you would be protecting the freedom of the opposition to the current government in any country to express themselves. And then the initial reaction and a very basic instinctive reaction of any government would be to say our position shouldn’t be trusted and allowed to express themselves because they’re actually are agents of some foreign rival, a geopolitical force that wants to destroy our country. This is something that every authoritarian regime in history used. You take Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany, Maoist BigEast, they always use the same trick that say, “We need to limit your freedom of speech because these people who are masquerading as opposition are actually the agents of this other country that wants to take over.” That’s why their citizens forget about their freedoms. And now increasingly you see similar attempts in free countries.

(03:22:33) 比如说马克龙总统的团队最初的本能，当他们面对一些镜头时。比如他妻子打他的镜头，就会说是全都是假的俄罗斯图像。某种不准确的东西。某种误导信息或干涉。然后当他们面对更多信息时，他们不得不完善叙事。所以当你发现自己处于一种情况，你在运营像Telegram这样的平台，然后你保护与主流叙事不符的想法的表达自由时，你经常会发现自己处于这种交火中，掌权的力量会说你一定是与他们不喜欢的某个外国政府合作。他们不可避免地说，哦，如果你保护这些声音，这不对。他们爱你当你在远离他们的国家，或者更好的是在他们的地缘政治对手国家保护言论自由时。他们为此赞美你。但然后当你在他们自己的国家做同样的事时，他们有这种双相态度，说“不，不，不，不，不。我们爱你保护言论自由，但不是在这里，不是在我的后院。我们不需要这里。我们没问题。我们有自由媒体。”

(03:22:33) The initial instinct from say, President Macron’s team, when they’re confronted with some footage. For example, the footage of his wife slapping him would be to say it’s all fake Russian imagery. Something that is inaccurate. Something that is misinformation or interference. And then when they are confronted with more information, they have to refine the narrative. So when you find yourself in a situation that you’re running this platform like Telegram, and then you protect the freedom to express of ideas that don’t go in line with the mainstream narrative, you often find yourself in this crossfire when the forces in power will say that you must be working with some foreign government that they don’t like. Inevitably they would say that, oh, if you’re protecting this voices, it’s not right. They love you when you are protecting the freedom of speech in a country that is far from them or better yet in a country that is their geopolitical rival. They praise you for that. But then they have this bipolar attitude when you do the same in their own country and they say, “No, no, no, no, no. We loved you for protecting freedom of speech, but not here, not in my backyard. We don’t need it here. We’re all right. We have free press.”

(03:24:28) 然后你会发现自己处于这种奇怪的位置。乌克兰人说你在为俄罗斯人工作。俄罗斯人说你在为乌克兰人工作。而所有这种精神分裂是我们不得不处理一段时间的东西，因为这是攻击你的非常简单的方式。在某个时刻你不明白它来自哪里。是我们的竞争对手吗？我们必须给我们的竞争对手信用，如果这是他们的发明来推出这些谣言，因为在某个时刻他们一定意识到他们在产品方面无法在技术上竞争，所以他们必须做这样的事情。或者只是政府在推出这些谣言，试图诋毁平台，试图吓唬他们的公民远离它，因为他们明白只要他们允许一个亲自由的平台运营，他们对他们自己国家的权力和控制就会处于危险中。

(03:24:28) And then you will find yourself in this weird spot. The Ukrainians say you work for the Russians. The Russians say you work for the Ukrainians. And all this schizophrenia is something that we had to deal with for some time because it’s a very easy way to attack you. At some point you don’t understand where it is coming from. Is it our competitors? We must give credit to our competitors if it’s their invention to launch these kind of rumors because at a certain point they must have realized they can’t compete technologically on the product side, so they must do something like this. Or it’s just governments launching these rumors, trying to discredit the platform, trying to scare their citizens away from it because they understand that their power and grip of their own country is in danger as long as they allow a pro-freedom platform to operate.

Lex Fridman (03:25:39) 而在所有这一切中，我们应该一遍又一遍地说，你只是在为地球上所有人保留言论自由，无论他们相信什么，只要他们不号召暴力，只要他们不从事我们讨论过的一些犯罪活动，包括恐怖组织。但除此之外，无论他们相信什么。左翼或右翼，你只是在保留他们的言论自由。你认为乌克兰人民、俄罗斯人民和伊朗人民，全世界人民，尽管有针对你的宣传，他们理解这一点吗？

Lex Fridman (03:25:39) And through all of this, we should say over and over, that you are simply preserving the freedom of speech for all people of earth no matter what they believe, as long as they don’t call for violence, and as long as they’re not doing some of the criminal activity that we discussed, including terrorist organizing. But other than that, it doesn’t matter what they believe. Left-wing or right-wing, you’re just preserving their freedom of speech. Do you think people of Ukraine, people of Russia and people of Iran, people of all over the world understand that despite the propaganda against you?

Pavel Durov (03:26:14) 我认为人们是聪明的。每次我现实生活中遇到这些你提到的国家中的某个人，或者人们在街上认出我，比如在迪拜这里，他们过来，他们似乎非常感激和理解。每个这些国家的宣传都会告诉他们很多事情，但他们学会了打折它。这就是为什么他们如此高兴Telegram存在，是因为他们理解周围世界的方式是接收来自相互仇恨的来源的冲突的、相互排斥的观点，并试图理解什么是真的。因为没有这样的东西叫无偏见的信息来源。当2022年乌克兰战争开始时，我立刻意识到Telegram将被双方用来传播宣传。我不希望Telegram被用作战争的工具，并公开建议也许我们应该暂停两国所有与政治相关的频道的活动。也许我们不应该在这些两个国家有频道。

Pavel Durov (03:26:14) I think people are smart. Every time I meet somebody from one of these countries you mentioned in real life or people recognize me in the street, say here in Dubai, they come over, they seem incredibly grateful and understanding. The propaganda in each of these countries would tell them a number of things, but they learned to discount it. That’s why they’re so happy that Telegram exists is because the way they can understand the world around them is to receive conflicting, mutually exclusive viewpoints from sources that hate each other and try to understand what really is true. Because there’s no such thing as an unbiased source of information. When the war in Ukraine started in 2022, I instantly realized Telegram is going to be used to spread propaganda by both sides. And I didn’t want Telegram to be used as a tool for war and publicly. I suggested maybe we should just suspend the activity of all politics-related channels in both countries for the time of the war. Maybe we shouldn’t have channels in these two countries.

(03:27:55) 然后有趣的是，来自两个国家的人都反抗这个。他们告诉我……乌克兰和俄罗斯的人都告诉我，我没有资格照顾他们并决定他们必须被授予访问哪些信息来源。他们是成年人，可以自己做这些决定。他们明白有很多宣传。他们学会了看穿这些宣传。他们学会了能够分辨真相与谎言。而在战争时期，对他们来说特别有价值的是接收尽可能多的信息，因为他们的亲戚、他们的朋友受到影响并且仍在受到影响，他们想明白发生了什么。在那个时刻，当我意识到人们是聪明的，人们明白，人们能看穿它。如果你问这些国家中的大多数人，你同意出于任何原因限制访问Telegram吗，他们会说不。

(03:27:55) And then interestingly, people from both countries revolted against this. They told me … Both people in Ukraine and in Russia that I don’t get to babysit them and decide for them what sources of information that they have to be granted access to. They are grown-ups that can make these decisions for themselves. They understand that there is a lot of propaganda. They learn to see through this propaganda. They learn to be able to tell truth from lie. And in this time of war, it was particularly available for them to receive as much information as possible because their relatives, their friends who are getting affected and are still getting affected, they want to understand what’s going on. At that point, when I realized people are smart, people get it, people can see through it. If you ask most people in any of these countries, do you agree that access to Telegram should be restricted for whatever reason, they would say no.

Lex Fridman (03:29:19) 他们渴望有发言权。

Lex Fridman (03:29:19) They hunger to have a voice.

Pavel Durov (03:29:21) 他们需要一个声音，他们需要一个安全地分享他们意见的地方。

Pavel Durov (03:29:21) They need a voice, and they need a place to share their opinion securely.

Lex Fridman (03:29:28) 我必须问关于领导力的问题，在Le Point采访中，记者说你经常被比作埃隆·马斯克，你强调了一些有趣的细微差别，你们相当不同。埃隆同时运营几家公司，而你只运营一家。埃隆可以更多地依赖情感方面，而你会在行动前深思熟虑。能扩展一下吗？还有一个有趣的点，你说每个人的弱点也是优势。

Lex Fridman (03:29:28) I have to ask in the question of leadership in the Le Point interview, the journalist said that you’re often compared to Elon Musk, and you highlighted some interesting nuances around that, that you’re quite different. That Elon runs several companies at once, while you only run one. And Elon can lean more on the emotional side while you deliberate and think deeply before acting. Can you expand on this? Also there’s an interesting point that you made that everybody’s weakness is also a strength.

Lex Fridman (03:30:00) 同样的点，他说每个人的弱点也是优势。每个人的优势也是弱点。所有我们的特征都有双重性质。所以关于埃隆的话题，你从他的领导风格中学到了什么？你尊重他什么？

Lex Fridman (03:30:00) Same point that he made that everybody’s weakness is also a strength. Everybody’s strength is also a weakness. There’s a dual nature to all our characteristics. So on the topic of Elon, what have you learned from his style of leadership? What do you respect about him?

Pavel Durov (03:30:20) 首先，我不认为有这样的东西叫负面个人特质。在大多数情况下，我们的坏特质和好特质是同一个特质，或者至少有相同的来源。当然，有一些极端例子，但我说99%的人，如果你分析他们的性格，他们的勇敢在其他情况下可以被视为鲁莽。根据情况，你会看到完全相同的个性特质，它要么是好事要么是坏事。因为人类作为一个整体是完美的，我们每个人不同是有原因的。我们进化成不同的，以互补彼此的能力，这样一起我们是无敌的。

Pavel Durov (03:30:20) First of all, I don’t think there is such thing as a negative personal trait. In most cases, our bad traits and our good traits are the same trait, or at least have the same source. Of course, there are some extreme examples, but I’d say 99% of people, if you analyze their character, their bravery can be seen and recklessness in other situations. Depending on circumstances, you would see exactly the same personality trait and it would be either a good thing or a bad thing. Because humanity is perfect as a whole, and each of us is different for a reason. We have evolved to be different, to complement each other’s abilities, so that together we’re invincible.

(03:31:20) 即使你拿一个像埃隆这样复杂的人，我相信埃隆展示的某些人们批评的特质也是他力量的来源。例如，他的感情用事源于他深深关心问题，他愿意开始尽可能多的战争和战斗来改变世界到他认为正确的方向。他似乎也能够从所有这些战争和个人冲突中提取动机，这又不是可以低估的东西。在一个成功企业家的生命中的某个时刻，动机的问题开始成为首要问题。如果我们谈论世界上最富有的人和最著名的企业家，你必须想知道他如何激励自己？

(03:31:20) And even if you take a person as complicated as Elon, I believe that certain traits that Elon demonstrates that people criticize about him are also the sources of his strength. For example, his emotionality is derived from the fact that he cares about issues deeply, and he’s willing to start as many wars and as many fights as it takes to change the world in the direction that he thinks is right. He also seems to be able to extract motivation from all these wars and personal conflicts, which is again, not something to be underestimated. At a certain point in the life of a successful entrepreneur, the question of motivation starts to be the primary question. If we’re talking about the richest person in the world and the most famous entrepreneur in the world, you have to wonder how does he motivate himself?

(03:32:40) 如果在X上开始一场战争，辩论某些问题或与其他人变得个人，批评他们，如果这些活动帮助埃隆创新并开始新项目，他应该做更多。没有什么错在不讨人喜欢。实际上，这是成功企业家的主要特质之一，不同意事情。而每次像埃隆这样的人，但没有像埃隆这样的人，只是埃隆，我认为，至少从我认识并亲自互动的企业家中，他是独特的，因为他不断推出新东西，并行运营它们，他似乎没有被拉得太薄。有些人认为他是，但他设法在所有或大多数努力中仍然展示成功。所以又一次，你可以批评埃隆感情用事，但没有这个他会是同一个人吗？我怀疑。

(03:32:40) And if starting a war on X, debating certain issues or becoming personal with other CEOs, criticizing them, if these activities help Elon to innovate and start new projects, he should be doing more of it. There’s nothing wrong in being non-agreeable. Actually, it’s one of the main traits of a successful entrepreneur, not agreeing with things. And every time somebody like Elon, but there’s no somebody like Elon, it’s just Elon, I think, at least from the entrepreneurs I know and I personally interacted with, he’s unique in the sense that he keeps launching new things, running them in parallel, and he doesn’t seem to be stretched too thin. Well, some people think he is, but he manages to still demonstrate success in all or most of his endeavors. So again, you can criticize Elon for being emotional, but would he be the same person without this? I doubt that.

Lex Fridman (03:34:11) 以及他激励的令人难以置信的团队。你谈到过这一点，Telegram的团队。组建一个A玩家团队，正如我们讨论过的，本身就是一种技能。这也是我们讨论过的领导者的一部分，被你组建的团队判断。

Lex Fridman (03:34:11) And the incredible teams he’s motivated too. There’s an element of that which you’ve spoken about, the team at Telegram. Assembling a team of A players, as we’ve talked about, is a skill in itself. And that’s also a big part of the leaders that we’ve discussed, it’s like judged in part by the team you assemble.

Pavel Durov (03:34:39) 是的。而启用这一点的一个必要性格特征是准备好不讨人喜欢。你必须准备好侮辱一些人。如果他们的工作低劣，你必须准备好毫不留情地解雇他们。所以为了成为一个高效和伟大的企业家并用创新丰富世界，你必须做不愉快的事情。大多数人会回避它。在某种意义上，企业家牺牲他们的内心平静为了贡献于周围的世界。而埃隆是这样一个伟大的例子。

Pavel Durov (03:34:39) Yes. And one of the necessary character features to enable that is to be ready to be unpleasant. You have to be ready to insult some people. If their work is inferior, you have to be ready to fire them without remorse. So in order to be an efficient and great entrepreneur and enrich the world of innovations, you have to do unpleasant things. Most people will shy away from it. And in a certain sense, entrepreneurs sacrifice their peace of mind in order to contribute to the world around them. And Elon is a great example of that.

财富

Money

Lex Fridman (03:35:31) 我必须问你关于Telegram的大局。我们已经谈到你拥有100%，在商业方面，Telegram的商业结构是迷人的。你投资了数亿，也许数亿美元的你的钱。据我所知，你拿的薪水是多少，1美元。

Lex Fridman (03:35:31) I have to ask you about the big picture Telegram. We’ve already talked about the fact that you own 100% of it, and there’s a lot of on the business side of it, the business structure of Telegram is fascinating. You’ve invested hundred, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars of your money. As far as I know, you take a salary of what, $1.

Pavel Durov (03:35:57) 一个迪拉姆是那个的三分之一。

Pavel Durov (03:35:57) One dirham is one third of that.

Lex Fridman (03:36:01) 三分之一美元。而在2024年是Telegram第一次盈利。所以这里一个有趣的问题，我们可以谈很多小时，但我想要一个高层次的图片。所以你通过坚持你的原则，留下了我理解的、我想是一大笔钱在桌上。例如，不做基于用户私人数据的广告，这基本上是每个社交媒体公司做的。所以Telegram做的唯一广告是基于频道和群组，基于主题，不是个人的私人数据。而另一件事，也是流氓和令人难以置信的，是你不做新闻 feed，这是社交媒体中最上瘾和参与诱导的方面，它喂养了互联网的非常上瘾的负面。

Lex Fridman (03:36:01) One-third of a dollar. And in 2024 was the first time Telegram was profitable. So one of the interesting questions here that we could talk for many hours about, but I’d love to get a high view picture. So you’ve left what I understand, what I think is a huge amount of money on the table by sticking to your principles. For example, not doing advertisement that’s based on user private data, which basically every social media company does. So the only advertisement that Telegram does is based on channels and groups, based on the topic, not the private data of the individuals. And the other thing is, which is also gangster and incredible, is you don’t do a news feed, which is the most addictive and engagement inducing aspect of social media, which feeds the very kind of addictive downside of the internet.

(03:37:02) 分心、参与、戏剧耕作方面，我们在最开始谈到过，你试图抵抗，你认为这在大规模上损害人类思维。所以反正，这只是说到你留下了很多钱在桌上。你到底是怎么做到盈利的？Telegram赚钱的方式是什么？

(03:37:02) The distraction, the engagement, drama farming aspect that we’ve talked about in the very beginning that you tried to resist, that you think is damaging the human mind at scale. So anyway, that’s just speaking to the fact that you’re leaving a lot of money on the table. So how the hell were you able to be profitable? What are the ways that Telegram makes money?

Pavel Durov (03:37:23) 是的。我们不得不创新很多为了达到盈利点，而不必诉诸可疑的商业活动涉及剥削用户个人数据，这是我们大多数竞争对手做的。因为金钱从来不是主要目标，至少对我不是。当我卖掉我第一家公司的剩余股份时，我不得不低于市场价格做，因为我没有完全离开俄罗斯而没有压力，我把绝大多数的一切重新投资到Telegram。Telegram是一个对我个人亏损的操作。我没有从Telegram提取比我投资的更多。我从来没有卖过一股，但我也从来没有想卖Telegram。所以你如何达到盈利点而不牺牲你的价值观？

Pavel Durov (03:37:23) Yeah. We had to innovate a lot in order to reach a point where we are profitable without having to resort to dubious business activities involving exploiting personal data of users, something that most of our competitors do. Because money has never been the primary goal, at least not for me. When I sold the remaining share of my first company and I had to do it below market price because I didn’t leave Russia completely without any pressures, I reinvested the vast majority of everything in Telegram. Telegram is an operation that is losing money for me personally. I didn’t extract more from Telegram than I invested in it. I never sold a single share, but I also didn’t want to sell Telegram. So how do you reach a point when you’re profitable without sacrificing your values?

(03:38:40) 我们探索的一个想法是订阅模式，但只针对某些额外功能。我们想保持所有现有功能免费，只是添加更多与业务相关的工具或高级用户的工具，他们必须每月支付4或5美元。这在当时是相当前所未有的。对于消息应用来说不被认为是可行的选项。我们在2022年推出了Telegram的优质订阅，现在我们有超过1500万付费订阅者。这是一些非常显著的经常性收入。所以我们今年仅从优质订阅就会收到超过5亿美元，而且它在快速增长。为此，我们不得不创新很多。我们把超过50个不同的功能包括到优质包中。然后如何让一个已经比市场上任何其他消息应用更强大的应用变得更有用，以便人们准备为这个额外支付？这不容易。这花了很多努力。

(03:38:40) One of the ideas we explored was a subscription model, but only for certain additional features. We wanted to keep all the existing features free and just add more business-related tools or tools for advanced users that they would have to pay for, say 4 or $5 a month. It was quite unprecedented at the time. It wasn’t considered a viable option for messaging apps to do that. We launched the premium subscriptions for Telegram in 2022, and now we have over 15 million paid subscribers. This is some very significant recurring revenue. So we would receive more than half a billion dollars from premium subscriptions alone this year, and it’s growing fast. For that, we had to innovate a lot. We included over 50 different features into the premium package. And then how do you make an app that is already more powerful than any other messaging app on the market, even more useful so that people would be ready to pay for this extra? That wasn’t easy. That took a lot of effort.

Lex Fridman (03:40:19) 而你不断添加功能。

Lex Fridman (03:40:19) And you’re constantly adding features.

Pavel Durov (03:40:21) 我们不断添加功能。

Pavel Durov (03:40:21) We’re constantly adding features.

Lex Fridman (03:40:22) 实际上看着添加的速度很有趣，有些是微妙的，比如对投票的更新、改进、扩展，例如。

Lex Fridman (03:40:22) It’s actually fun to watch just the rate of adding, and some of them are subtle, like the updates to improvements, expansions of polls, for example.

Pavel Durov (03:40:32) 是的。所以你不断改进现有功能并添加新的。而每次你添加新功能时，你不想让应用变得杂乱。所以在某种程度上，它们不在你的路上，它们是隐形的。这不是一件容易的事。而且大多数功能也许甚至不为我们大多数用户所知，但当你需要它们时，它们就在那里。所以优质是我们收入的一个来源。我们也有广告，但它们是基于上下文的，不是针对性的。当然，我们留下了大概80%的价值在桌上，因为我们不准备从事所有这些实践，剥削个人数据。

Pavel Durov (03:40:32) Yeah. So you keep improving the existing features and adding new ones. And every time when you add a new feature, you don’t want to clutter the app. So in a way, they’re not in your way, they’re invisible. That’s not an easy thing to do. And most of the features maybe are not even known to the majority of our users, but when you need them, they’re there. So premium is one source of our revenue. We also have ads, but they’re context-based, not targeted. Of course, we leave probably 80% of value on the table because we’re not ready to engage in all this practices, exploiting personal data.

Lex Fridman (03:41:15) 只是为了清楚，针对性广告是大多数社交媒体公司、大多数做任何种类广告的科技公司做的。那是使用用户个人数据的广告种类。只是为了澄清。而当你说80%，那是很多钱。

Lex Fridman (03:41:15) Just to be clear, targeted ads is what most social media companies, most tech companies that do any kinds of advertisement do. And that’s the kind of advertisement that uses personal data from users. Just to clarify. And when you said 80%, that’s a lot of money.

Pavel Durov (03:41:34) 当然，因为我们永远不会使用，例如，你的个人消息数据或你的上下文数据或你的元数据或你的活动数据来针对广告。很遗憾这成为了互联网行业的同义词，这种剥削。但我们很高兴尽管如此我们设法让Telegram盈利。我们也在大量实验基于区块链的技术。我们是第一个允许人们直接拥有他们的用户名或他们的数字身份使用智能合约和NFT的应用，移除Telegram从画面中。所以例如，Telegram不可能从你那里没收你的用户名。这是不可能的。我们做很多与Telegram生态相关的事情。我们有一个繁荣的迷你应用平台，数百万迷你应用开发者推出他们自己的机器人和应用。

Pavel Durov (03:41:34) Of course, because we would never use, for example, your personal messaging data or your context data or your metadata or your activity data to target ads. It’s sad that it became synonymous with the internet industry, this kind of exploitation. But we are happy with the fact that we managed to make Telegram profitable despite that. We are also experimenting a lot with blockchain-based technologies. We’re the first app to allow people to directly own their username or their digital identities using smart contracts and NFTs removing Telegram from the picture. So for example, Telegram cannot confiscate your username from you. It’s impossible. We do a lot of things related to the ecosystem of Telegram. We have a thriving mini app platform, millions of mini app developers launching their own bots and applications.

Lex Fridman (03:42:48) 所以很多人在Telegram平台上赚了数百万美元。

Lex Fridman (03:42:48) So a lot of people are making millions of dollars on the Telegram platform.

Pavel Durov (03:42:53) 是的。我们使他们能够通过Apple和Google提供的应用内购买机制从用户那里接收支付，我认为这是这种尝试的第一次，在iOS和Android上在一个大平台上允许第三方迷你应用开发者，基本上是如此深度集成到Telegram的网站，以至于你无法分辨它们是独立的还是整体体验的一部分。而通过提供这个支付选项，我们能够从这些交易中提取佣金。但这是一个非常低的佣金。目前是5%。所以我们在这里不贪婪。我们希望人们成功为我们的用户构建这些工具。我们明白迷你应用给我们带来用户。我们拥有的用户越多，Telegram就越成功和相关。我们需要第三方开发者。我认为在这一点上，Telegram给开发者提供了迄今为止最强大的工具来创建。

Pavel Durov (03:42:53) Yes. We enabled them to receive payments from the users through in-app purchase mechanism provided by Apple and Google, which I think was the first attempt of this kind, to allow that both on iOS and Android on a big platform so that third-party developers of mini apps, which are basically websites so deeply integrated into Telegram that you can’t tell whether they’re standalone or they’re part of the overall experience. And by providing this payment option, we’re able to extract a commission from these transactions. But it’s a very low commission. Presently it’s 5%. So we’re not greedy here. We want people to succeed in building these tools for our users. We understand that mini apps bring us users. The more users we have, the more successful and relevant Telegram becomes. We need third-party developers. I think at this point, Telegram gives developers by far the most powerful tools to create.

开放网络（TON）

TON

Lex Fridman (03:44:21) 加上还有机器人API。我的意思是你必须告诉我关于TON区块链和通过Telegram可用的加密生态。所以TON也就是The Open Network区块链是什么？

Lex Fridman (03:44:21) Plus there’s a bot API. And I mean you have to tell me about the TON blockchain and the crypto ecosystem available through Telegram. So what is TON aka The Open Network blockchain?

Pavel Durov (03:44:34) TON是我们最初在2018年和2019年开发的区块链技术，我们开始开发它是因为我们需要一个深度集成到Telegram的区块链平台，因为我们相信区块链。我们认为它是启用自由的技术之一。但在当时，如果你看看比特币，如果你看看以太坊，它们不够可扩展来应对我们数亿用户的负载。它们只会变得拥堵。我问我兄弟，“我们能创建一个本质上可扩展的区块链平台吗，以便无论有多少用户或交易，它都会分裂成更小的部分？”我们称之为ShardChains并且仍然处理所有交易。他想了几天的说，“是的，这是可能的，但不容易。”我们开始构建它。

Pavel Durov (03:44:34) TON is a blockchain technology that we initially developed in 2018 and 2019, and we started to develop it because we needed a blockchain platform to be integrated deeply into Telegram because we believe in blockchain. We think it’s one of the technologies that enable freedom. But at the time, if you look at Bitcoin, if you look at Ethereum, they were not scalable enough to cope with the load that our hundreds of millions of users would create. They would just become congested. And I asked my brother, “Can we create a blockchain platform that would be inherently scalable so that no matter how many users or transactions there are, it would split into smaller pieces?” which we call ShardChains and would still process all transactions. And he thought for a few days and said, “Yes, it’s possible, but it’s not easy.” And we started building it.

(03:45:37) 我们最终成功开发了那项技术，但我们无法发布它因为美国证券交易委员会对TON的筹资方式不满意。所以我们不得不放弃项目，开源社区接管了。幸运的是因为我们不断为第三方开发者举办那些比赛，有一个围绕TON的繁荣社区，现在代表The Open Network而不是之前的Telegram Open Network。所以这个项目最终在没有我们直接参与的情况下推出。它现在很繁荣因为我们做的一切，像我说的，这个基于区块链的代币化用户名，Telegram账户都基于TON及其智能合约。

(03:45:37) We ended up succeeding in developing that technology, but we couldn’t release it because the SEC, the Securities and Exchanges Commission in the United States was unhappy with the way the fundraise for TON was conducted. So we had to abandon the project and the open source community took over. Luckily because we constantly conducted those contests for third-party developers, there was a thriving community around TON, which now stood for The Open Network as opposed to its prior name, Telegram Open Network. And so this project got eventually launched without our direct involvement. And it’s thriving now because everything we do, like I said, this blockchain based tokenized user names, Telegram accounts are all based on TON and its smart contracts.

(03:46:55) 这是第三方开发者和创作者提取他们通过我们的收入分享程序赚取的资金的唯一方式。例如，与频道所有者，我们做广告收入的50-50分成。这也是在Telegram上交易的唯一方式。例如，如果你想在Telegram上购买广告，你应该使用TON。我们推出的所有新东西，例如，让我们说礼物，我们之前提到过，可以定义为重新发明的社会相关NFT集成到一个十亿用户生态系统中，但同时在链上可用、可转移，你可以直接拥有也基于TON。令人难以置信的快速增长空间。我们只在半年前推出它们，现在由于这个Telegram礼物，TON已经成为我认为最大的或第二大的区块链在每日NFT交易量方面。

(03:46:55) It’s the only way for third-party developers and creators to withdraw the funds that they earn through our revenue sharing programs. For example, with channel owners, we do a 50-50 split of ad revenues. It’s also the only way to transact on Telegram. For example, if you want to buy ads on Telegram, you should use TON. All the new things we launch, for example, let’s say gifts that we mentioned earlier, which you can define as a reinvented socially relevant NFT integrated into a billion user ecosystem, but at the same time available on chain, transferable, which you can own directly also based on TON. Incredibly fast growing space. We only launched them half a year ago, and now as a result of this Telegram gifts, TON has become I think the largest or the second largest blockchain in terms of daily NFT trading volumes.

Lex Fridman (03:48:19) 所以是的，像你提到的，它是一个第一层技术，而不是建立在以太坊或比特币之上，它能够实现Telegram需要的规模和交易速度。像你也提到的礼物。你最近推出了一些Snoop Dogg礼物。管道中会有其他名人吗？

Lex Fridman (03:48:19) So yeah, like you mentioned, it is a layer one technology as opposed to being built on top of Ethereum or Bitcoin and it’s able to achieve scale and the speed of transactions that’s needed for something like Telegram. And like you also mentioned the gifts. You recently launched some Snoop Dogg gifts. Is there going to be some other celebrities in the pipeline?

Pavel Durov (03:48:46) 是的，我是Snoop的大粉丝，这就是为什么当他们联系，建议一起做些什么，说，“让我们推出Snoop相关的礼物。”这真的很有趣。我们设法在30分钟内卖出价值1200万的礼物。

Pavel Durov (03:48:46) Yeah, I’m a big fan of Snoop, and that’s why when they reach out, suggests to do something together, say, “Let’s launch the Snoop related gifts.” And it was really fun. We managed to sell 12 million worth of gifts within 30 minutes.

Lex Fridman (03:49:03) 30分钟。好了，你明白了。我甚至拿了几个。但是的。

Lex Fridman (03:49:03) 30 minutes. Well, there you go. I even got a few. But yeah.

Pavel Durov (03:49:09) 在此之后我们有很多来自很多真正高调影响者的请求，在某种程度上他们在排队。

Pavel Durov (03:49:09) After this we have many requests from many really high profile influencers that in a way are lining up.

Lex Fridman (03:49:19) 所以从我作为粉丝的角度来看，只是看到你为任何种类的名人、运动员、音乐家创建什么样的艺术很有趣，因为Snoop礼物都是，只是，回到我们之前的对话，只是美丽的艺术作品，封装了某些模因，Snoop的某些方面，每个人都知道，这些他代表的文化图标。很酷。而且单个礼物的艺术的令人难以置信的细节只是令人难以置信。

Lex Fridman (03:49:19) So from my perspective as a fan, it’s just interesting to see what kind of art you create for any kind of celebrities, athletes, musicians, because the Snoop gifts are all just, going back to our previous conversation, just beautiful pieces of art that encapsulate certain memes, certain aspects of Snoop that everybody knows, these cultural icons that he represents. It’s cool. And the incredible detail of the art of the individual gifts is just incredible.

Pavel Durov (03:49:53) 而这些礼物中的每一个都是可扩展的因为它是基于向量的。它引用了Snoop创意传记中的某些点，每个都有无数不同的版本。我们不得不为每个创建超过50个独特的版本。然后每个单独的作品是独特的因为它也有独特的背景、独特的图标和背景。这是我们重新发明的东西因为我们不喜欢老派NFT。首先，它们在社会上不相关因为好吧，你有一个NFT，你在哪里展示它？在Telegram，一个Telegram礼物就在你的名字旁边。它是你Telegram数字身份的一部分。然后你可以创建礼物收藏并在你的个人资料页面炫耀。

Pavel Durov (03:49:53) And each of these gifts is scalable because it’s vector based. It references certain points in Snoop’s creative biography, and each of them has countless different versions. We had to create over 50 distinctive versions of each. And then each individual piece is unique because it also has unique background, unique icon and the background. It’s something that we reinvented because we didn’t like the old school NFTs. First of all, they were not relevant socially because okay, you have an NFT, where do you demonstrate it? At Telegram, a telegram gift is there next to your name. It’s part of your digital identity on Telegram. And then you can create collections of gifts and show it off on your profile page.

(03:50:50) 但我们也想重新发明的另一件事是美学部分。大多数NFT只是丑陋的，它们不是基于任何复杂的技术。所以我们用Snoop的礼物做的我认为代表了一个美丽的、审美上令人愉悦的同时在引用这个特定艺术家的传记方面非常准确的艺术和技术混合，我认为这是相当罕见的。我对此相当自豪。我认为这是一个新趋势，一个新现象。它只有半年，所以让我们看看它去哪里。我们将选择我们的下一个影响者或艺术家成为它的一部分。

(03:50:50) But also, the other thing that we wanted to reinvent is the aesthetic part of it. Most NFTs are just ugly and they’re not based on any sophisticated technology. So what we did with Snoop’s gifts I think represents an example of beautiful, aesthetically pleasing and at the same time very accurate in terms of references to this specific artist’s biography mixture between art and technology, which I think is quite rare. I’m quite proud of it. I think it’s a new trend, a new phenomenon. It’s only half a year old, so let’s see where it goes. We’re going to select our next influencer or artist to be part of it.

Lex Fridman (03:51:51) 嘿听着，我真的很自豪。我在我的名字旁边有一个Snoop礼物，我发现你可以通过固定它们添加更多。就像一个酷的小艺术图标。

Lex Fridman (03:51:51) Hey listen, I’m really proud. I got a Snoop gift next to my name, and I figured out that you can add even more by pinning them. It’s like a cool little art icon.

Pavel Durov (03:52:02) 顺便说一下，我们没想到。我们只是玩得很开心推出这些东西。然后我们意识到我们卖的第一个收藏中的一件大约是5美元。然后这个收藏中任何物品的最低价格目前是大约1万美元。而且它不断上升。所以我对接待相当惊讶。我意识到当你试图以与你的价值观一致的方式货币化社交媒体平台时，你被迫找到受益于你的用户而不是剥削他们的方式。人们爱这些礼物。人们爱他们可以用有价值的同时美丽的东西祝贺他们亲近的人的事实。也有些人从中做生意，这很有趣。他们转售这些礼物。我们最近遇到一个家伙仅仅从买卖礼物就赚了几百万美元。

Pavel Durov (03:52:02) We didn’t expect it, by the way. We just had a lot of fun launching these things. And then we realized that one of the first collections we sold each piece at something like $5. And then the minimum price of any items in this collections currently is something like $10,000. And it keeps going up. So I was quite surprised with the reception. I realized when you are trying to monetize social media platform in a way that is consistent with your values, you are forced to find ways that benefit your users, not exploit them. People love these gifts. People love the fact that they can congratulate a person close to them with something valuable and at the same time something beautiful. Also, some people make a business out of it, which is funny. They resell these gifts. We recently met a guy who earned several million dollars just from buying and selling gifts.

Lex Fridman (03:53:17) 这是一个真正的市场。

Lex Fridman (03:53:17) It’s a real market.

Pavel Durov (03:53:18) 这是一个真正的市场。只是他在几个月内做的。而去年当我们在Telegram上为迷你应用推出许多新功能以及它们的支付选项和其他货币化选项时，同一个人从迷你应用赚了1200万美元。我知道几个人说，“总共，我赚了1000万美元。”“我只在几个月内单枪匹马赚了300万美元。”有时他们会有一个两三个人的团队。所以每当我听到能够建立在Telegram之上的业务的人的故事时，这让我令人难以置信的自豪。

Pavel Durov (03:53:18) It’s a real market. It’s just something that he did in a few months. And last year when we launched many new features for the mini apps on Telegram and the payments options for them and the other monetization options, the same guy earned $12 million from mini apps. And I know several people saying, “Totally, I earned $10 million.” “I earned $3 million in just a matter of months single-handedly.” Sometimes they would have a team of two, three people. So whenever I hear stories from people who were able to build businesses on top of Telegram, this makes me incredibly proud.

比特币

Bitcoin

Lex Fridman (03:54:05) 而迷你应用包括游戏，它们包括任何种类的工具、服务。它是Telegram生态系统中的一个应用。让我问你关于加密的一般问题。所以你一直是加密货币的早期支持者，比特币。你早早买入比特币。你继续买入。也许你可以说到你为什么继续买入比特币的理由。你认为比特币会去到一百万美元吗？你认为它会继续增加，比特币和所有其他加密货币？

Lex Fridman (03:54:05) And mini apps include games, they include tools, services of any kind. It’s an app within the ecosystem of Telegram. Let me ask you about crypto in general. So you’ve been an early supporter of cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin. You’ve bought in into Bitcoin early on. You kept buying. Maybe you could speak to the reasoning why you kept buying Bitcoin. Do you think Bitcoin will go to a million dollars? Do you think it’ll keep increasing, Bitcoin and all the other cryptocurrencies?

Pavel Durov (03:54:40) 我从比特币开始以来或多或少就是一个大信徒。我在2013年买了我的前几千个比特币，我不太在意。我想我是在本地最大值买的，大约700美元一个比特币，我只是扔了几百万在那里。很多人后来在比特币明年跌到接近300、200时，开始表达他们的同情给我。“可怜的帕维尔。你投资这个新东西犯了这个可怕的错误，但别难过。我们仍然对你有一些尊重。”而我的回应是，“我不在乎。我不会卖它。我相信这个东西。我认为这是钱应该运作的方式。没有人能从你那里没收你的比特币。没有人能因为政治原因审查你。”

Pavel Durov (03:54:40) I was a big believer in Bitcoins since more or less the start of it. I got to buy my first few thousands of Bitcoin in 2013, and I didn’t care much. I think I bought at the local maximum, it’s something like $700 per Bitcoin and I just threw a couple of millions there. A lot of people after Bitcoin later next year, went down somewhere close to 300, 200. Started to express their sympathy to me. So, “Poor Pavel. You made this horrible mistake investing in this new thing, but don’t feel bad about it. We still have some respect for you.” And my response to them were, “I don’t care. I’m not going to sell it. I believe in this thing. I think this is the way money should work. Nobody can confiscate your Bitcoin from you. Nobody can censor you for political reasons.”

(03:55:52) 这是终极的交换手段。又一次，我现在在谈论比特币，但它与加密货币一般相关。所以我能够从我的比特币投资中资助我的生活方式，可以这么说。有些人认为如果我能租好地方或坐私人飞机，是因为我某种程度上从Telegram提取钱。像我说的，Telegram是对我个人亏损的操作。比特币是让我保持浮动的東西。我相信它会达到比特币值一百万美元的点。只是看看趋势。政府像明天没有一样印钱。没有人印比特币。有可预测的通胀然后在某个点停止。比特币会留下来。所有法币货币，还有待观察。

(03:55:52) This is the ultimate means of exchange. And again, I’m now talking about Bitcoin, but it relates to cryptocurrencies in general. So I have been able to fund my lifestyle, so to say, from my Bitcoin investment. Some people think if I’m able to rent nice locations or fly private, it’s because I somehow extract money from Telegram. Like I said, Telegram is a money losing operation for me personally. Bitcoin is something that allowed me to stay afloat. And I believe it will come to a point when Bitcoin is worth $1 million. Just look at the trends. The governments keep printing money like no tomorrow. Nobody’s printing Bitcoin. There is a predictable inflation and then it stops at a certain point. Bitcoin is here to stay. All the fiat currencies, remains to be seen.

双椅困境

Two chairs dilemma

Lex Fridman (03:57:13) 让我问你一个深刻哲学的严肃问题。在你的第一个Telco采访中，你背景中有两把有趣的椅子。我认为它们引用了一个现在传奇的模因。选择是Пики точёные или хуи дрочёные（俄语：“磨尖的矛或撸过的鸡巴。”）这两把椅子呈现的困境中的哲学智慧是什么？你自己亲自面对过这个困境吗？

Lex Fridman (03:57:13) Let me ask you a deeply philosophical serious question. In your first Telco interview, you had two interesting chairs in the background. I think they reference a now legendary meme. The choice is Пики точёные или хуи дрочёные (Russian: “Sharpened pikes or jerked-off cocks.”) What is the philosophical wisdom in the dilemma that these two chairs present? Have you had to face the dilemma yourself personally?

Pavel Durov (03:57:37) 不是这个确切的困境。我认为这是一个俄罗斯监狱中的人们必须面对的谜语。隐喻地，它描述了所有你被呈现两个次优选项的选择的情况。当你运营一个大企业或运营一个大国家时，它是类似的。你有时面对这个困境，你要做什么，这个非常可怕的东西或这个也非常可怕的东西？所以我认为这个谜语的正确答案是不做这些事情中的任何一件。重新框定问题，设计一个将劣势转化为优势的解决方案，然后用它来应对问题的另一面。所以你知道这个谜语的答案吗？

Pavel Durov (03:57:37) Not this exact dilemma. I think this is a riddle that people have to face in Russian prisons. And metaphorically, it’s describing all the situations where you’re presented a choice between two suboptimal options. When you’re running a big business or when you’re running a large country, it is similar. You sometimes face this dilemma, what are you going to do, this very horrible thing or this also very horrible thing? So I think the right answer to this riddle is not to do any of these things. Reframe the question, design a solution that turns a disadvantage into an advantage and then use it to cope with the other side of the problem. So do you know the answer to that riddle?

Lex Fridman (03:58:44) 不。互联网上的某个人说，“Не ходи туда, где задают такие вопросы”，基本上是尽量避免出现这种困境的情况，或者没有正确答案。

Lex Fridman (03:58:44) No. Somebody on the internet said, “Не ходи туда, где задают такие вопросы”, which is basically try to avoid the situations where such dilemmas present themselves or there is no right answer.

Pavel Durov (03:59:02) 这是回答这个问题的一种方式。如果你进入了一个棘手的情况，那可能早些时候你犯了某个错误-

Pavel Durov (03:59:02) This is one of the ways to answer this question. If you got to a tricky situation that probably earlier you made a certain mistake-

Lex Fridman (03:59:11) 你已经搞砸了。

Lex Fridman (03:59:11) You fucked up already.

Pavel Durov (03:59:12) 应该避免。但另一个相当有创意的答案是，你从一把椅子拿走尖锐的东西，或尖刺，然后用它们切掉另一把椅子上的东西。你知道我在说什么东西吗？

Pavel Durov (03:59:12) Should have been avoided. But the other quite creative answer to this question is that you take the sharp objects from one of the chairs, or the spikes and then they use them to cut off the objects from the other chair. And you know what objects I’m talking about?

Lex Fridman (03:59:38) 那是一个非常工程化的解决方案。我很高兴有人想出了那个。

Lex Fridman (03:59:38) That’s a very engineering solution. I’m glad somebody came up with that.

Pavel Durov (03:59:43) 我相信这是正确答案。我们经常被政客、企业领袖操纵来从两个次优选项中做出选择。然后当我们被迫做出选择，我们做出选择时，它几乎像是我们必须承担责任的东西。我不认为我们应该买账。

Pavel Durov (03:59:43) I believe this is the right answer. We’re often being manipulated by politicians, by corporate leaders to make a choice from two suboptimal options. And then when we are forced to make this choice and we make this choice, it’s almost as if it’s something that we have to assume responsibility for. I don’t think we should be buying into that.

Lex Fridman (04:00:12) 好的。而这个荒谬和可笑的主题，这里有一个物体出现在……没有多少人似乎注意到这个。人们应该去看你在奥斯陆自由论坛的优秀对话。在你身后，我不是考古学家，但我相信这是一个，怎么说呢，一个海象阴茎骨，它在你身后。你告诉我你把它带到法国又带回迪拜。我假设它给你带来某种运气。你为什么到处带着它？

Lex Fridman (04:00:12) Okay. And this theme of absurdity and ridiculousness, there’s an object here that appeared in… Not many people seem to have noticed this. People should go watch your excellent conversation in the Oslo Freedom Forum. Behind you, I’m no archeologist, but I believe this is a, how should I put it, a walrus penis bone, and it was behind you. You told me that you brought it with you to France and back to Dubai. I assume it brings you luck of some sort. Why did you bring it with you everywhere?

(04:01:00) 它有点像在美国他们有许愿骨？因为许愿骨带来运气。我还应该指出，就像Telegram与艺术一样，有小小的海象。而且由于你，我也不得不发现很多哺乳动物在它们的阴茎里面有一块骨头。而有骨头的进化优势，我想是相当明显的。它实际上提出了为什么人类没有真正的骨头在他们的阴茎里面。那里有很多问题。

(04:01:00) Is it kind of like in America they have a wishbone? Is it just a large wishbone? Because the wishbone brings you luck. And I should also point out that just like with Telegram, with the art, there’s tiny little walruses. And thanks to you, I had to also find out that a lot of mammals have a bone inside their penis. And the evolutionary advantage, I guess, of having a bone is quite obvious. It actually raises the question of why humans don’t have a actual bone inside their penis. A lot of questions there.

Pavel Durov (04:01:31) 那是一个非常有趣的主题。我有这个的原因是因为几乎灭绝的西伯利亚和蒙古的部落叫Evenki，从他们那里传给我这个礼物。通常他们只会为他们最受尊重的领袖制作这样的东西。它应该是他们对勇敢、勇气、领导力的欣赏的象征。讽刺的是，它也以一种非常特定的方式翻译成俄语。在俄语中，海象的阴茎意味着有点搞笑的东西，经常用来描述没什么。所以例如，如果你被某个政府或某个商业伙伴要求提供你不愿意提供的东西，你可以只是礼貌地在视频通话时在背景中放这个阴茎骨，并希望他们会。

Pavel Durov (04:01:31) That’s a very interesting subject. The reason I have this is because the tribe that is almost gone and extinct in Siberia and Mongolia called Evenki, passed me this gift from them. Normally they would craft something like this only for their most respected leaders. It is supposed to be a token of their appreciation for bravery, courage, leadership. Ironically, it also translates in a very specific way into the Russian language. In Russian, walrus’s penis means something a bit funny, which is often used to describe nothing. So for example, if you’re being requested by say certain government or a certain business partner to provide something that you’re not willing to provide, you can just politely have this penis bone in the background while you’re doing the video call and hope then they would.

Lex Fridman (04:02:52) 通过渗透明白深层信息。这是一种间接的反叛。顺便说一下，在前苏联，有，而且在历史上很多地方，有些反叛不得不采取这种象征的、隐喻的形式通过诗歌，通过儿童故事。这是人类语言和艺术的美，我们能够做到，说F-U，给任何试图压倒我们的力量。我们通过诗歌、通过艺术说F-U，有时通过一个相当大的海象阴茎骨携带，看起来要么是一个快乐的相扑摔跤手要么是某种猫。

Lex Fridman (04:02:52) Through osmosis figure out the deep message. It is an indirect rebellion. By the way, in the former Soviet Union, there was, and a lot of places throughout history, some of the rebellion had to take this kind of symbolic, metaphoric form through poetry, through children’s stories. It’s the beauty of the human language and art that we’re able to do that, say F-U, to whatever forces that try to overpower us. We say F-U through poetry, through art, and sometimes through a rather large walrus penis bone carried by what appears to be either a happy sumo wrestler or a cat of some sort.

Pavel Durov (04:03:39) 他们在机场问了很多关于这个海象阴茎骨的问题，在阿联酋这里和在法国，他们总是对这个东西非常感兴趣。

Pavel Durov (04:03:39) They asked a lot of questions about this walrus’s penis bone in the airport, both here in the UAE and in France, they are always very interested in this thing.

子女

Children

Lex Fridman (04:03:53) 似乎对你有多少孩子有混淆。经常说是超过100个。你能解释你有多少孩子吗？

Lex Fridman (04:03:53) There seems to be some confusion over how many kids you have. It’s often said to be over 100. Can you explain how many kids you have?

Pavel Durov (04:04:06) 这个问题的真实答案是我真的不知道我到底有多少生物孩子。因为在我生命中的某个时刻，大约15年前，我决定做一个精子捐赠者是个好主意。最初，我的一个朋友问我帮忙因为他们试图和他妻子生宝宝，他们经历了某些健康问题阻止他们自然方式。他问我，他告诉我，“我们不想只是依赖一些随机的匿名遗传材料。我们想要我们知道并尊重的人成为我们孩子的生物父亲。”我说，“你在开玩笑吧。听起来很荒谬。我们甚至在谈论什么？”

Pavel Durov (04:04:06) The truthful answer to this question is I don’t really know how many biological kids I have exactly. Because at a certain point in my life, about 15 years ago, I decided that it was a good idea to be a sperm donor. Initially, a friend of mine asked me to help because they were trying to have a baby with his wife, and they experienced certain health issues that prevented them to do the natural way. And he asked me, he told me, “We don’t want to just rely on some random anonymous genetic material. We want somebody we know and respect to be the biological father of our kid.” And I said, “You got to be kidding me. Sounds ridiculous. What are we even talking about?”

Pavel Durov (04:05:00) ……我是说，听起来很荒谬。他们在谈论什么？但然后我意识到这实际上是一个严肃的问题，他们不是唯一挣扎于此的夫妇。所以最终，我被说服去做更多。我不能说我对此令人难以置信的自豪，但我认为这是正确的事，特别是当时我想，“好吧，我可能在这个星球上没有太多时间了。事情越来越棘手。所以如果我能帮助一些夫妇生宝宝，让我们做吧。”

Pavel Durov (04:05:00) … I mean, sounds ridiculous. What are they even talking about? But then I realized it’s actually a serious issue, and they were not the only couple struggling with that. So eventually, I got persuaded into doing more of it. I can’t say I am incredibly proud of that, but I think it was the right thing to do, particularly at the time when I thought, “Okay, I probably don’t have much time on this planet left. Things are getting trickier and trickier. So if I can help some couples have babies, let’s do it.”

(04:05:37) 然后最近，当我在处理我的遗嘱时，我意识到我不应该在自然怀孕的孩子和只是我从未见过的生物孩子之间做出区分。只要他们有一天能建立与我的共享DNA，也许在30年后，他们必须有权分享我离开后的遗产。这在新闻中引起了很多噪音不知为什么。人们对这种新闻非常兴奋。我收到很多人声称他们是我的孩子的信息。我收到很多人要求我收养他们的请求。模因是无价的。但理解这不是大多数人做的事，我不认为有什么错。如果有的话，我认为更多人应该捐赠精子。

(04:05:37) And then more recently, when I was working on my will, I realized that I shouldn’t make a distinction between the kids conceived naturally and the kids who are just my biological kids that I never seen. As long as they can establish their shared DNA with me someday, maybe in 30 years from now, they have to be entitled for a share of my estate after I’m gone. And that made a lot of noise in the news for some reason. People get very excited by this kind of news. I get a lot of messages from people claiming they’re my kids. I get a lot of requests from people asking me to adopt them. The memes were priceless. But understanding that it’s not a thing that most people do, I don’t see anything wrong with it. If anything, I think more people should be donating sperm.

Lex Fridman (04:06:52) 所以我们应该说，100多个孩子来自那个。你也有自然怀孕的孩子。从财务角度来看这是一个相当大胆的决定平等对待他们所有人。也相当有趣的是你说他们在前几十年不会收到任何钱。你能描述那个想法吗？

Lex Fridman (04:06:52) So we should say, the 100-plus kids is from that. You also have naturally conceived kids. It was a pretty bold decision from a financial perspective to treat them all equally. And also quite interesting was that you said that they don’t receive any money for the first few decades of their life. Can you describe that thinking?

Pavel Durov (04:07:24) 是的，我认为过剩会瘫痪动机和意志力。这极其有害，特别是对年轻男孩，在他们可以为不是他们自己的成就而是他们父亲的成就或父亲的财富而自豪的环境中成长。这移除了发展他们自己技能的激励，移除了学习、工作的激励。所以我想如果他们要得到这笔钱，它应该是他们已经成年时才得到的东西。仍然有风险，但一个原因我决定将我可能留下的巨大财富分成一百或一百多人是它不会对每个后代太多。但同时，有些人做了计算，它仍然是每个孩子很多很多百万美元，所以我不确定它帮助太多。

Pavel Durov (04:07:24) Yeah, I think overabundance paralyzes motivation and willpower. It’s extremely harmful, particularly for young boys, to grow up in an environment where they can be proud, not of their own achievements, but of their father’s achievements or their father’s wealth. This removes the incentive to work on developing their own skills, removes the incentive to study, to work. So I thought if they’re going to have this money, it should be something that they would only get when they’re already adult. It’s still risky, but one of the reasons I decided it makes more sense to divide this huge wealth that I’m likely to leave behind among a hundred or more than a hundred people is that it won’t be too much for every single descendant. But at the same time, some people did the calculation, it’s still many, many millions of dollars for each child, so I’m not sure it helps too much.

Lex Fridman (04:09:12) 关于丰盛的话题，线下我们有很多迷人的哲学讨论。其中之一是关于老鼠天堂实验，也称为Universe 25。这是一个20世纪60年代和70年代初由行为学家John B. Calhoun进行的实验。我们也可以谈这个谈几个小时，我敢肯定。但这是一个有几百个单独老鼠隔间的实验，他们提供了无限的食物、水、筑巢、没有捕食者、稳定的温度和频繁清洁。基本上是老鼠的丰盛定义。

Lex Fridman (04:09:12) On the topic of abundance, offline we had a lot of fascinating philosophical discussions. One of which was about the mouse paradise experiment, also known as Universe 25. It’s an experiment from the 1960s and early ’70s conducted by ethologist John B. Calhoun. We can talk about this one for hours also, I’m sure. But it was an experiment with a few hundreds of individual mice compartments, and they provided them with unlimited food, water nesting, no predators, stable temperatures, and frequent cleaning. Basically the definition of abundance as far as mice go.

(04:09:56) 这个实验的有趣方面是起初人口翻倍，它增长非常快。但然后它趋于平稳，某些真正负面的社会事情开始发生，像母亲忽视杀死他们的幼崽，暴力攻击，过度性活动变得普遍。有些“美丽的”主要不活跃、精心打理的老鼠退缩，拒绝交配或互动。所以所有这些我们视为社会功能负面的社会品质开始出现因为丰盛。最后，崩溃。繁殖率崩溃，社会功能障碍传播到下一代，最终只是灭绝。它不仅仅是骤降到低水平，尽管那些持续的资源丰盛，它稳步下降到零。正如这个描述所说，最后一只老鼠死在未触及的食物和水周围。我的意思是，那里有关于丰盛的深刻智慧。你在整个对话中不同背景下提到过，似乎稀缺。似乎约束。似乎非丰盛对人类繁荣是必需的，这是一个反直觉的概念。它对老鼠是真的，我认为对人类也可能是真的。

(04:09:56) The interesting aspect of this experiment is that at first the population doubled, it grew very quickly. But then it leveled off, and certain really negative social things started happening, like mothers neglected to kill their young, violent attacks, and hypersexual activity became widespread. Some “beautiful” ones, largely inactive, well-groomed mice withdrew, refusing to mate or interact. So all of these kind of societal qualities that we see as negative from the functioning of a society started to emerge because of the abundance. And finally, the collapse. The reproduction rates crashed, social dysfunction spread to the next generation, and eventually just went extinct. It didn’t just plummet to a low level, it plummeted steadily to zero despite the fact that those ongoing resource abundance. As this description states, the last mouse died surrounded by untouched food and water. I mean, there’s deep wisdom to that about abundance. You’ve mentioned this in different contexts throughout this conversation, is it seems like scarcity. It seems like constraints. It seems like non-abundance is essential for human flourishing, which is a counterintuitive notion. It’s true for mice, and I think it’s probably true for humans too.

Pavel Durov (04:11:27) 我们进化来克服稀缺。几乎根据定义，在我们现在之前的生活中从来没有无限量的食物或娱乐。我们作为一个物种似乎失去了在你拥有一切一切失去意义的世界中识别目的的能力。限制是重要的。不过我认为它们应该来自内部。它应该是自我限制而不是为了创造目的和生活意义而限制。在某种程度上，我很幸运以一种非常反直觉的方式因为我穷苦长大。我青少年时没有钱。我有同一件夹克好几年，是在二手市场上买的。我父亲作为大学教授几个月收不到薪水因为当时俄罗斯国家几乎破产。我妈妈不得不兼两份工作来照顾我们。这不容易，但它也创造了目的。它创造了意义。它创造了优先级。它允许我们专注于重要的事情，允许我们发展我们的性格和智力能力。

Pavel Durov (04:11:27) We have evolved to overcome scarcity. Almost by definition, there has never been such thing as infinite amount of food or entertainment in our lives before now. We seem as a species to lose our ability to identify purpose in the world where you have everything and everything loses its meaning. Restrictions are important. I think though that they should be coming from within. It should be self-restriction rather than a restriction in order to create purpose and meaning in life. In a way, I was lucky in a very counterintuitive way because I grew up poor. I didn’t have money when I was a teenager. I had the same jacket for years, which was bought on a secondhand marketplace. My father wouldn’t receive his salary as a university professor for months because the Russian state was almost bankrupt back then. My mom had to juggle two jobs to take care of us. It was not easy, but it also created purpose. It created meaning. It created priorities. It allowed us to focus on things that mattered, allowed us to develop our character and intellectual abilities.

(04:13:17) 现在，如果我们拥有一切，为什么要做任何事？这些老鼠遭受了不可逆转的社会崩溃，这不是事故。这种实验被重复了无数次。在某个时刻，社会功能障碍和社会角色的侵蚀变得具有传染性，社会逐渐退化为一个混乱的个体集合无法照顾下一代甚至生产下一代，它就灭绝了。

(04:13:17) Now, if we had everything, why do anything? These mice suffered societal collapse that was irreversible, and this is not an accident. This kind of experiment has been repeated countless times. At a certain point, social dysfunction and the erosion of social roles becomes contagious, and the society gradually degrades into a chaotic collection of individuals unable to take care of the next generation or even to produce the next generation, and it goes extinct.

Lex Fridman (04:14:14) 这很迷人因为我们正在创造技术和这就是AI为我们的后代提出的问题要解决，AI很可能创造丰盛。所以我们可能像这些老鼠一样。无论是AI还是其他种类技术，它们越来越给我们所有人更多更多。它是一件好事：减少世界上的痛苦，增加生活质量。但当我们走向那个丰盛时，连接我们的织物，根植于我们的生物学由进化发展，它可能为我们创造一个真正的挑战。

Lex Fridman (04:14:14) It’s fascinating because we’re creating technologies and this is what AI is proposing to our future generations as a problem to solve, which is, AI may very well create abundance. So we will be like these mice potentially. Whether it’s AI or other kinds of technologies, they increasingly give more and more to all of us. And it is a thing that is good: decrease the amount of suffering in the world, increase the quality of life. But as we reach towards that abundance, the fabric that connects us, rooted in our biology that’s developed by evolution, it might create a real challenge for us.

Pavel Durov (04:14:54) 我们应该找到混乱和秩序之间的正确平衡，自我限制和创造自由之间。

Pavel Durov (04:14:54) We should find the right balance between chaos and order, between self-restriction and freedom for creativity.

父亲

Father

Lex Fridman (04:15:03) 你父亲最近庆祝了他的80岁生日。你和他有了一次对话。他给了你一些生活建议。我想你对我提到过他说的其中一件事是不要只是说你的原则，而是活出它们，以身作则。我认为这是你已经做得很好的东西。也许你可以说到你从你父亲那里学到了关于生活的什么，也许他在你和他生日对话中告诉你的教训。

Lex Fridman (04:15:03) Your father recently celebrated his 80th birthday. You had a conversation with him. He gave you some life advice. I think you mentioned to me one of the things he said was not to just speak of your principles, but to live them, to lead by example. I think this is something you already do well. Maybe can you speak to what you’ve learned about life from your father, maybe some of the lessons he told you in the conversation you’ve had with him on his birthday.

Pavel Durov (04:15:40) 我令人难以置信的幸运有我的父亲。他是一个写了无数关于古罗马和古罗马文学的书的人，几十篇科学论文，我总是记得他在工作。他会在80年代末90年代初用老式打字机忙着打他的书和文章。他是无情的。他对我和我兄弟的榜样是无价的。有些人犯这个错误认为你可以向未来一代或你的孩子灌输正确的原则通过对他们说事情，但孩子是聪明的。他们打折话语，他们看行动。所以观察我们的父亲本身就是一个大教训。不必要对他我们说什么。然后同时，他令人难以置信的耐心，情感上坚韧。

Pavel Durov (04:15:40) I’m incredibly lucky to have my father. He’s a person who wrote countless books on Ancient Rome and Ancient Roman literature, dozens of scientific papers, and I always remember him working. He would be busy typing his books and articles in an old-school typewriter back in the late ’80s, early ’90s. He was relentless. The example he said to myself and my brother was priceless. Some people make this mistake of thinking that you can instill the right principles in the future generation or into your kids by saying things to them, but kids are smart. They discount words, they look at the actions. So observing our father was a big lesson by itself. It wasn’t necessary for him to say anything to us. And then at the same time, he was incredibly patient, emotionally resilient.

(04:17:06) 我妈妈，伟大的女人，令人难以置信的聪明，受过高等教育，但她有时会试图测试我父亲的耐心。这是根植于我们生物学中的特质。有进化的解释。女人有时倾向于这样做，他总是展示令人难以置信的耐心。他最近告诉我，“你不应该给周围的人特别是你的孩子错误的例子，因为你可以十次中有九次做正确的事，但你犯一次错，他们会立刻抄袭它。如果你告诉你的孩子不要用智能手机，但你自己一直用智能手机，并想出各种复杂的、辉煌的解释为什么他们不应该用智能手机，它不会落地。它注定要失败。所以你以身作则。”

(04:17:06) My mom, great woman, incredibly smart, highly educated, but she would sometimes try to test the patience of my father. It’s a trait rooted in our biology. There’s an evolutionary explanation for that. Women sometimes tend to do that, and he demonstrated incredible patience all the time. He told me recently, “You shouldn’t give the wrong example to the people around you and in particular to your kids, because you can do the right thing nine times out of 10, but you make a mistake once, and they will instantly copy it. If you’re telling your kids not to use a smartphone, but you’re using a smartphone all the time yourself, and coming up with all kinds of sophisticated, brilliant explanations why they shouldn’t be using a smartphone, it won’t land. It’s bound to fail. So you lead by example.”

(04:18:19) 还有其他众多教训：保持积极，看光明的一面，永不绝望，诚实。他上次我和他说话时告诉我，AI可以有意识，可以有创造力，但它不能有良心。它不能是道德的。它不能有我们作为人类理解的深深根植的原则。它不能有诚信。

(04:18:19) There are other numerous lessons: staying positive, looking at the bright side, never despair, be honest. He told me last time I spoke to him that AI can have consciousness, can be creative, but it cannot have conscience in a way. It cannot be moral. It cannot have deeply rooted principles. It cannot have integrity in the meaning that we understand it as human beings.

Lex Fridman (04:18:57) 我爱你正在和你80岁的父亲谈话，你在谈论AGI和人类、人类精神、人类本性与AGI、AI能够实现的东西之间的区别。而良心是人类拥有的东西，知道对错的能力。

Lex Fridman (04:18:57) I love the fact that you’re talking to your 80-year- old father, and you’re talking about AGI and the difference between human, the human spirit, human nature, and what AGI, AI is able to achieve. And conscience is the thing that humans have, the ability to know the right from wrong.

Pavel Durov (04:19:23) 这是他给我的教训。我的人生目标之一是永不让他失望。

Pavel Durov (04:19:23) This is the lesson that he gave me. One of my goals in life is never to disappoint him.

量子永生

Quantum immortality

Lex Fridman (04:19:33) 我们谈到的另一件事，我认为是一个迷人的话题，是思想的力量，思维的力量。你相信你可以通过思考它，通过将其显现到存在来影响你的生活和现实吗？你怎么想？

Lex Fridman (04:19:33) Another thing we’ve talked about, which I think is a fascinating topic, is the power of the mind, power of thought. Do you believe you can affect your life and reality by thinking about it, by manifesting it into being? What do you think?

Pavel Durov (04:19:55) 有很多解释为什么它有效。大多数人同意的一件事是设定目标并保持积极和自信确实允许你实现你想实现的东西。不过很难相信你可以只是将事情显现到存在而不应用似乎逻辑的方向的努力。也许有些人存在可以只是坐在河岸边用他们的思想力量实现事情。但我不确定我是这些人之一。我总是发现更容易相信如果你将这种乐观和信仰与逻辑行动结合，那么它注定会成功。

Pavel Durov (04:19:55) There are many explanations why it works. One thing most people agree on is that setting goals and staying positive and confident does allow you to achieve the things you want to achieve. It’s very hard to believe though that you can just manifest things into being without applying effort in the direction that seems to be logical. Maybe some people exist that can just sit on the bank of a river and materialize things by the power of their thought. But I’m not sure I’m one of these people. I always found it more easy to believe that if you couple this optimism and faith with logical action, then it is bound to be successful.

Lex Fridman (04:21:04) 长时间的努力，艰苦工作，与积极的专注，思考那件事结合。

Lex Fridman (04:21:04) Prolonged effort, hard work, coupled with positive focus, thinking about the thing.

Pavel Durov (04:21:13) 哦是的，很多很多很多天。可以将我们的世界想象成一个高维宇宙，人类有能力用信念的力量导航通过它，与积极情感和逻辑思考结合。但我们正在进入一个深奥的领域。我们没有任何证明。但我们也知道我们可能在这一点上还没有发现这个宇宙的1%。

Pavel Durov (04:21:13) Oh yes, over many, many, many days. It’s possible to imagine our world as a high dimensional universe where humans have the ability to navigate through it with the power of belief, which is coupled with positive emotion and logical thinking. But we are getting into an esoteric realm. We don’t have any proof of that. But we also know that we probably at this point haven’t discovered even 1% about this universe.

Lex Fridman (04:22:00) 我完全同意你，而且我喜欢你思考它的方式。你之前告诉我也许有一种方式，用努力和专注的头脑，你可以塑造，你可以变形你周围的概率景观。这是一个很好的可视化方式，不知怎的我们的努力和我们的专注改变了可能和不太可能的事情。通过专注于它，我们使那件事越来越可能，至少作为一种估计，作为我们通过我们的思想和行动改变的场。然后有八十亿我们这样做，一起有一个集体智能创造我们看到的周围世界像老鼠。像你说的，我们作为人类一起是完美的。我喜欢你这么说。

Lex Fridman (04:22:00) I agree with you fully, and I like what you said in the way you were thinking about it. You’ve told me before that maybe there’s a way that with effort and with the focused mind, you can shape, you can morph the landscape of probabilities around you. It’s a nice way to visualize it, that somehow our effort and our focus changes the things that are likely and less likely. And by focusing on it, we make the thing more and more likely, at least as an estimate, as the kind of field that we, through our thoughts and through our actions, change that field. And then there’s eight billion of us doing so, and together there’s this collective intelligence that creates the world we see around us like the mice. Like you said, us as a humanity together are perfect. I like that you said that.

Pavel Durov (04:23:05) 我钦佩你相信我们一起体验这个的事实因为这不是明显的。也许我们每个人体验他或她自己的宇宙，也许每秒宇宙分裂成十亿不同的宇宙，一切能发生的事都发生。有一个宇宙，比如说，我在2013年死了。也许每次我死时，我实际上转移到一个平行宇宙当我不死时。然后它继续，在某些点我们实现了量子不朽当我们1000岁时，但很多来自其他现实版本的人认为我们早就走了。

Pavel Durov (04:23:05) I admire your belief in the fact that we get to experience this together because it’s not obvious. Maybe each of us experiences his own or her own universe, and maybe every second of the universe splits into a billion of different universes, and everything that can happen happens. And there is a universe where, say, I died in 2013. Maybe every time I die, I actually get to shift to a parallel universe when I don’t die. And then it keeps going, and at certain points we achieve this quantum immortality when we’re 1,000 years old, but a lot of people from other versions of reality think we’re long gone.

Lex Fridman (04:24:04) 是的。这是你向我解释的东西，量子不朽的想法，这是一个思想实验，我发现它深深迷人，人们应该研究它，这是量子力学多世界解释的一个非常清晰、干净的后果，我们作为有意识的存在不能体验我们的死亡。当我们分支到这些多世界时，只有活着的意识才能体验它。所以在某种意义上，是的，有很多宇宙。如果我们认真对待量子力学的多世界解释，有很多宇宙你在那里死了很多次，特别是你，我很高兴我们在这个宇宙我们能分享桌子与这个令人印象深刻的骨头，一点幽默，和今天涵盖的很多严肃话题。再一次，我不能说够。再一次，谢谢我。再一次，谢谢数亿跟随你工作的人，谢谢你为我们所有人的言论自由而战，并创建一个我们可以这样做的平台。非常感谢今天谈话，兄弟。认识你并能够称你为朋友是一种荣幸。

Lex Fridman (04:24:04) Yeah. This is something you explained to me, the idea of quantum immortality, which is a thought experiment, which I find deeply fascinating, people should look into it, which is very crisp, clean consequence of the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics that we as conscious beings can’t experience our death. As we branch into these many worlds, only the living consciousnesses get to experience it. So in some sense, yeah, there’s many universes. If we were to seriously take the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, there’s many universes where you died many times, especially you, and I’m glad we’re in the universe where we get to share the table with this impressive bone, a little humor, and a lot of serious topics covered today. Once again, I can’t say enough. Again, thank you from me. Again, thank you from hundreds of millions of people that follow your work, for you fighting for the freedom of all of us to speak and creating a platform where we can do so. Thank you so much for talking today, brother. It’s been an honor getting to know you and to be able to call you a friend.

Pavel Durov (04:25:22) 谢谢你这么说。我也对你和我在这个现实版本中发生的事实令人难以置信的感激，至少还没有死，希望我们在未来的几年中能一起度过更多有趣的时刻。

Pavel Durov (04:25:22) Thank you for saying that. I’m also incredibly grateful to you and to the fact that I happened to be in this version of reality when I haven’t died, at least yet, and hopefully we’ll get to spend more fun moments in the years to come together.

Lex Fridman (04:25:44) 谢谢，兄弟。

Lex Fridman (04:25:44) Thank you, brother.

(04:25:45) 感谢收听与Pavel Durov的这次对话。要支持这个播客，请查看描述中的我们的赞助商。现在让我试着表达一些我一直在想的事情。如果你想提交问题或话题像这样让我在未来谈论，去lexfridman.com/ama。

(04:25:45) Thank you for listening to this conversation with Pavel Durov. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. Now, let me try to articulate some things I’ve been thinking about. If you’d like to submit questions or topics like this for me to talk about in the future, go to lexfridman.com/ama.

卡夫卡

Kafka

(04:26:05) 我想借此机会谈论弗朗茨·卡夫卡，我最喜欢的作家之一。他一直在我脑海中的原因是他的作品《审判》和Pavel Durov在法国的案件，让我们说，有诡异的平行，既隐喻地也字面地。当然，《审判》是一部虚构作品，但我认为经常有用去文学的超现实世界，甚至像1984、动物农场、美丽新世界、《审判》、《城堡》、《变形记》，甚至阿尔贝·加缪的《瘟疫》这样的过顶反乌托邦品种，来理解我们的真实世界和我们有潜力一起走下的破坏性路径，这也有希望帮助我们理解如何避免这样做。

(04:26:05) I’d like to use this opportunity to talk about Franz Kafka, one of my favorite writers. The reason he has been on my mind is that his work The Trial and the case of Pavel Durov in France has, let’s say, eerie parallels, both metaphorically and literally. Of course, The Trial is a work of fiction, but I think it is often useful to go to the surreal world of literature, even over-the-top dystopian variety like 1984, Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Trial, The Castle Metamorphosis, even The Plague by Albert Camus, all to understand our real world and the destructive paths we have the potential to go down together, which also hopefully helps us understand how to avoid doing so.

(04:26:55) 所以让我放大并谈论弗朗茨·卡夫卡。他是谁？他是一个保险职员，晚上写作。他年轻去世，几乎完全未知，他要求烧掉他的手稿。幸运的是对我们来说，他的朋友马克斯·布罗德拒绝这样做，给了我们我认为是20世纪最伟大的作家之一的作品。在他的作品中，卡夫卡写了关于通过机构权力的迷宫将人类冷酷机器般还原为案件档案。他写了关于即使没有犯罪也感觉内疚的感觉，或者更一般地，他写了关于焦虑的感觉，这是现代混乱世界中人类状况的一部分。

(04:26:55) So let me zoom out and speak about Franz Kafka. Who was he? He was an insurance clerk who wrote at night. He died young and almost completely unknown, and he asked for his manuscripts to be burned. Luckily for us, his friend, Max Brod refused to do so, giving us the work of what I consider to be one of 20th century’s greatest writers. In his work, Kafka wrote about the cold machine-like reduction of humans to case files through the labyrinth of institutional power. He wrote about an individual’s feeling of guilt even when a crime has not been committed, or more generally, he wrote about the feeling of anxiety that is part of the human condition in our modern, chaotic world.

(04:27:42) 他的写作风格是使用短的、陈述性的句子来描述超现实和荒谬，从而有效地，我认为，传达体验的感觉而不是简单描述体验。例如，著名地，他的作品《变形记》以以下几行开头，“当格里高尔·萨姆萨从不安的梦中醒来一个早晨时，他发现自己在床上变成了一个巨大的昆虫。他躺在他的硬盔甲般的背上，当他稍微抬起头时，他可以看到他的圆顶般的棕色腹部分成僵硬的拱形段，上面被子几乎无法保持位置，即将完全滑落。他的众多腿，与他的大部分体积相比可怜地细，在他眼前无助地挥动。”

(04:27:42) His writing style was to use short, declarative sentences to describe the surreal and the absurd, and in so doing, effectively, I think, convey the feeling of an experience versus simply describing the experience. For example, famously, his work, The Metamorphosis, opens with the following lines, “As Gregor Samsa awoke one morning from uneasy dreams, he found himself transformed in his bed into a gigantic insect. He was lying in his hard armor-plated back, and when he lifted his head a little, he could see his dome-like brown belly divided into stiff arched segments, on top of which, the bed-quilt could hardly keep in position and was about to slide off completely. His numerous legs, which were pitifully thin compared to the rest of his bulk, waved helplessly before his eyes.”

(04:28:38) 卡夫卡，我认为，有效地使用被变成一个巨型虫子卡在背上的形象来传达对他的家庭、他的工作、对社会的无助和无用的感觉。感觉对每个人都是负担，被非人化、疏远和遗弃。感觉只有在他为他的工作或家庭服务某种功能时才暂时有价值，否则很快被丢弃。我可能会在另一个时间更深入谈论这部作品，因为它是如此令人难忘，我认为它是对现代社会中许多人的存在负担的如此深刻描述。

(04:28:38) Kafka, I think, effectively uses this image of being transformed into a giant bug stuck on his back to convey a feeling of helplessness and uselessness to his family, to his job, to society. The feeling of being a burden to everyone, dehumanized, alienated, and abandoned. The feeling of being only temporarily valued as long as he served some function for his job or for his family, and quickly discarded otherwise. I will probably talk about this work in more depth at another time, because it is so haunting, and I think it is such a profound description of the burden of existence in modern society for many people.

(04:29:24) 但在这里，让我谈论他的另一部作品，《审判》。在这部小说中，主要人物约瑟夫·K是一个成功的银行官员，他在生日那天被一个权威无处不在又无处可寻的模糊法庭逮捕，因为一个未指定的罪行。他导航一个迷宫般的法律系统，每个人都知道他的案件，但没有人能真正解释它。所谓的审判从来没有以任何常规意义上发生。相反，约瑟夫·K的整个生活成为导致审判的程序。在某种意义上，审判是被指控的状态本身，一个永久的条件而不是单一事件。卡夫卡的天才作品是展示现代机构不需要举行审判；它们只需要让你处于审判的永久迫在眉睫的可能性中。

(04:29:24) But here, let me talk about another of his work, The Trial. In this novel, the main character, Josef K, is a successful bank officer, and he’s arrested on his birthday for an unspecified crime by a kind of amorphous court whose authority is everywhere and nowhere. He navigates a labyrinth-like legal system where everyone knows about his case, but no one can really explain it. The so-called trial never actually occurs in any conventional sense. Instead, Josef K’s entire life becomes the proceedings leading up to the trial. In a sense, the trial is the state of being accused itself, a permanent condition rather than a singular event. Kafka’s geniusness work was to show that modern institutions don’t need to hold trials; they just need to hold you in the permanent looming possibility of one.

(04:30:21) 对这个案件的公众关注，既积极也消极，给约瑟夫·K一种不断被周围人判断的感觉。这磨损了他的头脑，他的心理健康开始恶化。在某种意义上，审判不需要定罪他的罪。内部心理动荡和外部社会审查执行了定罪和最终处决。当在他被捕后正好一年时，约瑟夫·K被两个男人访问，礼貌地带他穿过城市到一个废弃的采石场，在约瑟夫·K没有抵抗的情况下刺中心脏。对我来说，审判显示暴政的最终胜利不是当它杀死你时，或当你为刀子保持不动时，不是因为你被迫，而是因为你已经被耗尽到顺从。再一次，这是一个关于官僚的无灵魂在扼杀人类精神的令人难忘的故事。我强烈推荐这本短书，我可能会在未来甚至更多谈论它。我不认为对我来说特别有用去说到《审判》和Pavel Durov案件之间的任何平行，因为毕竟，《审判》是虚构的。但在积极的一面，让我报告，据我所见，Pavel在整个过程中保持了乐观和一般积极的态度。我在这种案件中总是害怕的是官僚系统可以耗尽人们，耗尽他们到投降。我在Pavel身上没有看到那个。我不认为他知道如何放弃或屈服，无论他处于多大压力下。再一次，这对我来说真正鼓舞人心。

(04:30:21) Public attention to this case, both positive and negative, gives Josef K a feeling of constantly being judged by people around him. This wears at his mind, and his psychological well-being begins to deteriorate. In a sense, the trial doesn’t need to convict him. The internal psychological turmoil and the external social scrutiny performs a conviction and the eventual execution. When exactly one year after his arrest, Josef K is visited by two men, walked him courteously through the city to an abandoned quarry, and stabbed him in the heart without Josef K resisting. To me, the trial shows that tyranny’s final victory isn’t when it kills you, or when you hold still for the knife, not because you’re forced, but because you’ve been exhausted into submission. Once again, it is a haunting story of the soullessness of bureaucracy in its suffocation of the human spirit. I highly recommend this short book, and I’ll probably talk about it even more in the future. I don’t think it’s especially useful for me to speak to any parallels between The Trial and Pavel Durov’s case, because after all, The Trial is a work of fiction. But on a positive note, let me report that as far as I saw, Pavel has maintained optimism and a general positive outlook throughout this whole process. What I always fear in such cases is that a bureaucratic system can wear people down, exhaust them into surrendering. I saw none of that with Pavel. I don’t think he knows how to give up or give in, no matter how much pressure he’s under. Again, this is truly inspiring to me.

(04:32:09) 另外，现在我们正在谈论它，让我提到卡夫卡的一些其他作品对我来说是感人的。《城堡》有类似于《审判》的对权威的荒谬不可及的描述，对噩梦般的官僚。城堡中的人物也叫K。两个官僚都通过耗尽、无尽的推迟、程序、等候室运作。又一次，与现代非常相关。

(04:32:09) Also, now that we’re talking about it, let me mention some other of Kafka’s work that was moving to me. The Castle has similar description as The Trial does of the absurd inaccessibility of those in authority, of the nightmarish bureaucracy. The character in The Castle is also named K. Both bureaucracies operate through exhaustion, endless deferrals, procedures, waiting rooms. Again, highly relevant to modern times.

(04:32:37) 我也可以强烈推荐卡夫卡的《在刑罚殖民地》和《饥饿艺术家》。两者都太有趣和奇怪，无法在这里深入解释。但让我说，《饥饿艺术家》是一个我认为与我们现代注意力经济相关的故事，那里很多人想成名。它讲述了一个，可以说，专业禁食者在笼子里表演饥饿作为娱乐，他慢慢失去观众给更新的奇观，以至于最终当他饿死自己时，没有人在乎。

(04:32:37) I can also highly recommend Kafka’s In The Penal Colony and Hunger Artist. Both are too interesting and weird to explain in depth here. But let me say, the Hunger Artist is a story that I think is relevant to our modern-day attention economy, where so many people want to be famous. It tells the story of a, let’s say, professional faster who performs starvation in a cage as entertainment, and he slowly loses his audience to newer spectacles, so much so that eventually when he starves himself to death, nobody cares.

(04:33:14) 卡夫卡的作品很沉重。它作为文明可能成为的噩梦的警告，然而我认为它也是乐观的来源，因为当我们能在卡夫卡的故事中认出我们自己世界的元素时，当我们能在《审判》或《城堡》中看到我们机构的元素时，当我们能在格里高尔·萨姆萨中看到我们自己时，我们不仅仅是在诊断疾病，我们是在证明我们仍然是人类并且足够聪明去看到它并命名它。卡夫卡给了我们目标：抵抗试图非人化我们的这样的系统，并确保个人自由和人类精神继续繁荣。我认为它会。我对我们人类有信心。我爱你们所有人。

(04:33:14) Kafka’s work is heavy. It serves as a warning for the nightmare that civilization can become, and yet I think it is also a source of optimism, because when we can recognize elements of our own world in Kafka’s stories, when we can see elements of our institutions in The Trial or in The Castle, when we can see ourselves in Gregor Samsa, we’re not just diagnosing the disease, we’re proving that we’re still human and wise enough to see it and name it. Kafka gave us the goal: to resist against such systems that tried to dehumanize us and to ensure that individual freedom and the human spirit keep flourishing. I think it will. I have faith in us humans. I love you all.