书童按：本篇是帕维尔·杜罗夫（Pavel Durov）于2025年10月接受Lex Fridman的播客采访实录，Pavel是端到端加密通信软件Telegram的创始人兼CEO。其采访中涉及进化系统、低维流形可学习性、信息比物质和能量更基本、开放世界游戏等观点，精彩绝伦，令人击节称赞。初稿采用Deepseek翻译，经书童校对及简单批注，中文全部译文多达4万余字，将分上、中、下三个部分发出，以飨诸君。
| **帕维尔·杜罗夫：Telegram、自由、审查、金钱、权力与人性 | 莱克斯·弗里德曼播客** |
| **Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature | Lex Fridman Podcast** |
介绍
Introduction
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:00:00) 以下是与帕维尔·杜罗夫的对话，他是即时通讯平台Telegram的创始人兼CEO，该平台活跃用户超过10亿。帕维尔一生都在为言论自由而战，构建保护人类通信免受监视和审查的工具。为此，他面临过来自地球上一些最强大的政府和组织的压力。面对这些巨大的压力，他始终坚守立场，持续为保护用户隐私和我们所有人类彼此沟通的自由而战。我有机会与他共度了几周时间，可以肯定地说，他是我见过的最有原则和最无畏的人之一。另外，当我发帖说我正和帕维尔在一起时，很多人，他的粉丝，写信问我，他是否真的私下过着众所周知的那种纪律严明的苦行生活：不喝酒，斯多葛心态，严格的饮食和锻炼，包括每天疯狂数量的引体向上和俯卧撑。没有手机，除了偶尔测试Telegram功能，等等这些。
Lex Fridman (00:00:00) The following is a conversation with Pavel Durov, Founder and CEO of Telegram, a messaging platform actively used by over 1 billion people. Pavel has spent his life fighting for freedom of speech, building tools that protect human communication from surveillance and censorship. For this, he has faced pressure from some of the most powerful governments and organizations on earth. In the face of this immense pressure, he has always held his ground, continuously fighting to protect user privacy and the freedom of all of us humans to communicate with each other. I got the chance to spend a few weeks with him and can definitively say that he’s one of the most principled and fearless humans I’ve ever met. Plus, when I posted that I’m hanging out with Pavel, a lot of people, fans of his, wrote to me asking if he does, in fact, privately live the disciplined ascetic life he’s known for. No alcohol, stoic mindset, strict diet and exercise, including a crazy amount of daily pull-ups and push-ups. No phone, except to occasionally test Telegram features, and so on.
(00:01:12) 是的，他百分之百就是那样的人，这让我与他共处的经历真的非常鼓舞人心。我对此心怀感激，也很感激现在能称他为朋友。这次播客对话部分是关于哲学的，关于自由、生活、人性以及政府官僚机构的本质。它部分也超级技术性，因为对我来说，Telegram拥有一个相对较小的工程团队，却基本上能够以惊人的速度推出新的、独特的功能，从而在所有竞争对手中实现创新领先。就像《辛普森一家》的那个梗”他们先做的”一样，当你考虑我们通信应用中所有我们熟知和喜爱的功能时，几乎在每种情况下，都是Telegram先做的。所以我们讨论了所有内容，从他在法国所面临的那种卡夫卡式的处境，到他生活和职业生涯的过山车般经历，再到他关于技术、自由和人类境况的哲学。
(00:01:12) Yes, he’s 100% that guy, which made the experience of hanging out with him really inspiring to me. I’m grateful for it and I’m grateful to now be able to call him a friend. This podcast conversation is in parts philosophical, about freedom, life, human nature, and the nature of government bureaucracies. And it is also in parts super technical because to me, it’s fascinating that Telegram has a relatively small engineering team and yet is able to basically out-innovate all of its competitors with an insane rate of introducing new, unique features. Just like the meme of the Simpsons did it first, when you consider all the features we know and love in our communication apps, in almost every case, Telegram did it first. So we discuss it all, from the Kafkaesque situation he’s in the midst of France, to the roller coaster of his life and career, to his philosophy on technology, freedom, and the human condition.
(00:02:15) 顺便说一下，虽然整个对话是英文的，但我们将提供多种语言的字幕和配音音轨，包括俄语、乌克兰语、法语和印地语。在YouTube上，你可以通过点击设置齿轮图标，然后点击音轨，再选择你偏好的语言来切换不同语言的音轨。再次衷心感谢ElevenLabs在翻译和配音方面提供的帮助，以及他们在打破语言所造成的障碍这一更大使命上的贡献。他们确实是我有幸合作过的最卓越的公司之一。这里是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客，要支持我们，请查看描述中的赞助商信息。现在，亲爱的朋友们，有请帕维尔·杜罗夫。
(00:02:15) And by the way, while this entire conversation is in English, we’ll make captions and voiceover audio tracks available in multiple languages, including Russian, Ukrainian, French, and Hindi. On YouTube, you can switch between language audio tracks by clicking the settings gear icon, then clicking audio track, and then selecting the language you prefer. Huge thank you once again to ElevenLabs for their help with translation and dubbing, and with the bigger mission of breaking down barriers that language creates. They are truly one of the most remarkable companies I’ve ever had the pleasure of working with. This is the Lex Fridman podcast, to support it please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here’s Pavel Durov.
自由哲学
Philosophy of freedom
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:03:07) 你多年来一直是自由的倡导者，写道你应该准备好为自由冒一切风险。有哪些影响和见解帮助你形成了这种对人类自由的价值观？
Lex Fridman (00:03:07) You’ve been an advocate for freedom for many years, writing that you should be ready to risk everything for freedom. What were some influences and insights that help you arrive at this value of human freedom?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:03:21) 我在生命早期就体验到了有自由的社会和没有自由的社会的区别。我四岁时，我的家人从苏联搬到了意大利北部，我可以看到，一个没有自由的社会无法享受丰富的意见、想法、商品和服务。即使对于一个四五岁的孩子来说，这也是显而易见的。在苏联，你无法接触到在意大利能接触到的所有玩具、各种冰淇淋、卡通片。然后我意识到了一些更重要的事情。没有自由，你就无法为这种丰富性做出贡献。在这一点上，对我来说已经非常明显了。
Pavel Durov (00:03:21) I get to experience the difference between a society with freedom and a society without freedom pretty early in life. I was four years old when my family moved from the Soviet Union to northern Italy, and I could see that a society without freedom cannot enjoy the abundance of opinions, of ideas, of goods and services. Even for a four or five-year-old kid, it was obvious. You can’t experience all the toys, the ice cream of sorts, the cartoons in the Soviet Union that you can access in Italy. And then I got to realize something even more important. You don’t get to contribute to this abundance without freedom. And at this point it was pretty obvious to me.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:04:14) 你还写过”Свобода дороже денег”。翻译过来是，”自由比金钱更重要。” 你如何防止这些对自由的价值观被金钱、有影响力的人、有权势的人所腐蚀？
Lex Fridman (00:04:14) You also wrote “Свобода дороже денег”. It translates to, “Freedom matters more than money.” How do you prevent these values for freedom, being corrupted by money, by people with influence, by people with power?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:04:29) 嗯，自由最大的敌人是恐惧和贪婪，所以你要确保它们不挡你的路。如果你想象一下可能发生在你身上最糟糕的事情，然后让自己坦然接受它，那就没有什么好害怕的了。所以你坚守立场，并记住，按照你所信仰的原则生活是值得的，即使这样的生命可能比活在奴役中的更长生命要短暂。
Pavel Durov (00:04:29) Well, the biggest enemies of freedom are fear and greed, so you make sure that they don’t stand in your way. If you imagine the worst thing that can happen to you and then make yourself be comfortable with it, there is nothing more left to be afraid of. So you stand your ground and you remember that it’s worth living your life according to the principles that you believe in, even though this life can end up being shorter than a longer life, but lived in slavery.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:05:08) 你思考过自己的 mortality 吗？你想到过死亡吗？
Lex Fridman (00:05:08) Do you contemplate your mortality? You think about your death?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:05:12) 哦，是的。
Pavel Durov (00:05:12) Oh yes.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:05:13) 你害怕它吗？
Lex Fridman (00:05:13) Are you afraid of it?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:05:14) 在某种程度上，你必须违背自我保存的本能，这并不容易。我们都是生物体，天生就害怕死亡。没有人想死，但当你理性地看待它时，你活着，然后你死去。在你的生命中，并不存在你的死亡这件事。一旦你死了，你就停止体验生命。所以你必须问自己这个问题，是值得活在充满对死亡的恐惧中，还是忘记这一点，以一种让你对这种恐惧免疫的方式生活更令人愉悦？同时也要记住死亡是存在的，这样每一天都会算数。
Pavel Durov (00:05:14) In a way, you have to go against your instinct of self-preservation, and it’s not easy. We are all biological beings, hard-coded to be afraid of death. Nobody wants to die, but when you approach it rationally, you live and then you die. There’s no such thing as your death in your life. You stop experiencing life once you die. So you have to ask yourself this question, is it worth living a life full of fear of death, or it’s much more enjoyable to forget about this and live your life in a way that makes you immune to this fear? At the same time remembering that death exists, so that every day would count.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:06:03) 是的，记住死亡的存在让你深深地感受到你确实拥有的每一个时刻。
Lex Fridman (00:06:03) Yeah, remembering that death exists makes you deeply feel every moment that you do get.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:06:11) 这就是为什么我喜欢提醒自己我可能在任何一天死去。
Pavel Durov (00:06:11) That’s why I love reminding myself that I can die any day.
不喝酒
No alcohol
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:06:15) 在很多方面，你过着一种相当斯多葛式的生活。我有机会和你共处了几周。在很多方面，你寻求最小化外部世界对你思想的负面影响。你曾写道，”如果你想充分发挥潜力并保持头脑清晰，请远离成瘾物质。我的成功和健康是20多年完全戒除酒精、烟草、咖啡、药片和非法毒品的结果。短期的快乐不值得你付出未来。” 我们来谈谈这其中每一项。酒精。你对此背后的哲学是什么？
Lex Fridman (00:06:15) In many ways you live a pretty stoic existence. I got a chance to spend a couple of weeks with you. In many ways, you seek to minimize the negative effects of the outside world on your mind. You’ve written, quote, “If you want to reach your full potential and maintain clarity of mind, stay away from addictive substances. My success and health are the result of 20 plus years of complete abstinence from alcohol, tobacco, coffee, pills, and illegal drugs. Short-term pleasure isn’t worth your future.” Let’s talk about each one of these. Alcohol. What’s been your philosophy behind that?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:06:57) 这个相当简单。当我11岁时，我的生物化学老师，他给了我一本他写的书，书名叫《天堂的幻觉》，他在书中描述了当你摄入这种或那种物质后，你体内发生的生物和化学过程。它主要涉及非法药物，但酒精也是他涵盖的成瘾物质之一。所以事实证明，当你喝酒时，发生的事情是你的脑细胞变得麻痹。它们真的变成了僵尸。然后第二天，聚会结束后某个时候，你的一些脑细胞会死亡，再也无法恢复正常。所以想想看。如果你的大脑是你在通往成功和幸福旅程中拥有的最宝贵工具，你为什么要为了短期快乐而摧毁这个工具呢？这听起来很荒谬。
Pavel Durov (00:06:57) That one is quite easy. When I was 11 years old, my biochemistry teacher, he gave me this book he wrote, it was called The Illusion of Paradise, and there he would describe the biological and chemical processes that happen in your body once you consume this or that substance. It was mainly related to illegal drugs, but alcohol was one of these addictive substances that he covered. So it turns out that when you drink alcohol, the thing that happens is that your brain cells become paralyzed. They become literally zombies. And then next day, sometime after the party is over, some of your brain cells die and never get to normal. So think about this. If your brain is this most valuable tool you have in your journey to success and happiness, why would you destroy this tool for short-term pleasure? This sounds ridiculous.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:08:06) 是的，在很多方面，它是一种我们让进入身体的毒药。但是，作为建议，对于那些考虑不喝酒的人，你会给他们什么建议？很多人使用酒精来使他们能够拥有充满活力的社交生活。在聚会上，来自社会的压力很大，要他们喝酒以便社交。所以你会给他们什么建议，给那些想象没有酒精的社交生活的人？
Lex Fridman (00:08:06) Yeah, in many ways it’s a poison we’re letting in our body. But by way of advice, what advice would you give to people who consider not drinking? A lot of people use alcohol to enable them to have a vibrant social life. There’s a lot of pressure from society at a party to drink so they can socialize. So what advice would you give to them, to people who imagine having a social life without alcohol?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:08:37) 嗯，首先，不要害怕逆向而行。设定你自己的规则。其次，如果你觉得需要喝酒，那一定是你试图掩盖某个问题。有某个恐惧你还没有准备好面对，你必须解决这个恐惧。如果有一个你害怕接近的漂亮女孩，消除这种恐惧，去接近她，练习。一次又一次地做，这很老套，但这个建议有效。
Pavel Durov (00:08:37) Well, first of all, don’t be afraid to be contrarian. Set your own rules. Secondly, if you feel you need to drink, there must be some problem you’re trying to conceal. There’s some theory you’re not ready to confront, and you have to address this fear. If there is a good-looking girl you’re afraid to approach, get rid of this fear, approach her, practice. Do it again and again, it’s pretty banal, but this advice works.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:09:11) 解决根本问题，这通常在最底层，总是恐惧。在这方面努力。
Lex Fridman (00:09:11) Fix the underlying problem, which is usually at the very bottom, is always going to be fear. Work on that.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:09:17) 而且很多时候，人们试图用酒精逃避他们生活中的某些东西。他们试图逃避什么？是什么问题？你必须追根究底。你的思想试图告诉你一些有价值的东西，而你非但没有直接解决它，反而用酒精淹没它，酒精是一种精神止痛药，但只能暂时起作用，然后你必须连本带利地偿还。
Pavel Durov (00:09:17) And very often people are trying to escape something in their lives with alcohol. What is it they’re trying to escape? What is this problem? You have to get to the bottom of it. Your mind is trying to tell you something valuable, and instead of addressing it directly, you are flooding it in alcohol, which is a spiritual painkiller, but works only temporarily and then you have to pay the debt with interest.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:09:51) 那你怎么做？我的意思是，你参加过很多聚会，很多派对。说”不”有什么挑战吗？
Lex Fridman (00:09:51) So what do you do? I mean, you’ve been in a lot of gatherings, a lot of parties. Is there some challenges to saying no?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:09:58) 对我来说，完全没有。当我感觉某事不对时，我总是准备好坚持立场并说不。而且，我们人类是多么容易受到我们认为是多数意见的影响，这是非同寻常的。因为自远古时代，自百万年前起，没有人想被部落排斥。我们害怕我们不再被接受，这在数千百万年前意味着我们会饿死。所以我们必须有意识地对抗这种倾向于同意多数人强加给你的一切的倾向，因为很明显，多数人参与的许多事情、许多活动并不会给你带来任何好处。
Pavel Durov (00:09:58) For me, not at all. I’ve been always ready to stand my ground and say no when I feel something’s not right. And it’s extraordinary how easily we humans are affected by what we perceive as a majority. Because nobody since ancient times, since million years ago wants to be left out by the tribe. We are scared that we won’t become accepted anymore, which thousands of millions of years ago meant we’re going to starve to death. So we have to consciously fight this inclination to be agreeable with everything that the majority imposes on you because it’s quite clear that many things that the majority, many activities the majority is engaging in are not bringing you any good.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:11:03) 所以那是另一个你必须面对的恐惧，去参加一个派对，以及害怕在那个派对上成为被排斥者，害怕在那个派对上、在那个社交聚会上与他人不同。在人群中，要与众不同。那是一种恐惧。
Lex Fridman (00:11:03) So that’s another fear you have to face, going into a party and the fear of being the outcast at that party, of being different than others at that party, at that social gathering. In the crowd of humans, be different. That’s a fear.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:11:17) 那是一种恐惧。如果你仔细想想，这是相当非理性的。这在20,000年前很有意义。但在今天毫无意义，因为如果你想想，如果你做周围其他每个人都在做的事情，你没有任何竞争优势，你也无法在你生命的某个时刻变得出众。
Pavel Durov (00:11:17) That’s a fear. And it’s quite irrational if you think about it. It was something that made a lot of sense 20,000 years ago. It makes zero sense today because if you think about it, if you do the same thing everybody else around you is doing, you don’t have any competitive advantage and you don’t get to become outstanding at some point in your life.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:11:45) 是的，这是我们谈到的建议之一，如果你想在生活中成功，你就要与众不同。
Lex Fridman (00:11:45) Yeah, that’s one of the things we talked about by way of advice is, if you want to be successful in life, you want to be different.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:11:55) 当然。
Pavel Durov (00:11:55) Definitely.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:11:56) 也许，我想你说过你想在一个细分领域达到精通。所以找到一个你可以全力以赴并达到精通的细分领域，并且这个细分领域与任何其他人正在做的任何事情都不同。你能再解释一下吗？
Lex Fridman (00:11:56) And perhaps, I think you said you want to achieve mastery at a niche. So find a niche at which you can pursue with all your effort and achieve mastery, and the niche being different than anything that anybody else is doing. Can you explain that a little bit more?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:12:13) 所以很明显，为了对你所在的社会、对你所居住国家的经济做出贡献，你必须做一些有价值的事情。但如果你在做其他每个人都在做的事情，那它的价值是什么？现在说起来比做起来容易，去做别人没做过的事，因为我们人类被各种信息包围，这使我们想要复制我们感知到的东西。同时，有那么多你可以探索的领域，它们与你日常接收到的信息毫无关系。所以，精心筛选你的信息来源是极其重要的，这样你就不会成为受基于人工智能的算法信息流摆布的人，它告诉你什么是重要的，以至于你最终消费着与其他人相同的信息、相同的东西、相同的模因、相同的新闻。
Pavel Durov (00:12:13) So obviously in order to contribute to the society you’re in, to the economy of the country you live in, you have to do something that is valuable. But if you’re doing something that everybody else is doing anyway, what’s the value of it? Now it sounds easier than it is done, to do something that nobody else is doing, because we humans are surrounded by all kinds of information, which makes us want to copy what we’re perceiving. At the same time, there are so many areas which you can explore, that have nothing to do with the information you receive on the daily basis. So it’s extremely important to curate the information sources that you have, so that you wouldn’t be somebody who is left to the will of AI-based algorithmic feed telling you what’s important so that you end up consuming the same information, the same stuff, the same memes, the same news as everybody else.
(00:13:24) 相反，你应该积极主动。你应该有意识地设定一个目标，一个你想要探索的领域，然后主动搜索与这个领域相关的信息，这样有一天你就能成为这个领域的世界头号专家。这样做并不难。你只需要保持一致性，因为没有其他人试图这样做。其他每个人都只是在阅读相同的新闻，每天讨论相同的新闻。但这样他们无法获得竞争优势。
(00:13:24) But rather you should be proactive. You should deliberately try to set a goal, an area that you want to explore, and then actively search information that is relevant to this field, so that one day you can become the world’s number one expert in this field. And it’s not that difficult to do that. You have to just remain consistent because nobody else is trying to do that. Everybody else is just reading the same news and discussing the same news every day. But this way they don’t get to have a competitive advantage.
不用手机
No phone
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:14:08) 是的，大多数人口成为人工智能驱动的推荐系统的奴隶，所以每个人被喂食的内容是相同的，我们都变得一样。关于这一点，你做的其中一件不同的事情是，你不使用手机，除了偶尔测试Telegram功能，但我和你在一起两周了，我从未见过你以大多数人使用手机的方式使用手机，比如用于他们的社交媒体。那么你能描述一下你背后的哲学吗？
Lex Fridman (00:14:08) Yeah, majority of the population becomes slaves to the AI-driven recommender systems, and so the content everybody’s fed is the same thing and we all become the same. On that point, one of the different things you do is, you don’t use a phone except occasionally to test Telegram features, but I’ve been with you for two weeks, I haven’t seen you use a phone at all in the way that most people use a phone, like for their social media. So can you describe your philosophy behind that?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:14:40) 我不认为手机是必要的设备。我记得我成长过程中没有手机。当我上大学时，我没有手机。当我最终开始使用手机时，我从不使用电话功能。我总是开着飞行模式或静音。我讨厌被打扰的想法。我这里的哲学很简单，我想定义我生活中什么是重要的。我不想要其他人或公司，各种组织告诉我今天什么是重要的，我应该思考什么。只需设定你自己的议程，而手机会妨碍你。
Pavel Durov (00:14:40) I don’t think a phone is a necessary device. I remember growing up, I didn’t have a mobile phone. When I was a student at the university, I didn’t have a mobile phone. When I finally got to use a mobile phone, I never used phone calls. I was always in airplane mode or mute. I hated the idea of being disturbed. My philosophy here is pretty simple, I want to define what is important in my life. I don’t want other people or companies, all kinds of organizations telling me what is important today, and what I should be thinking about. Just set up your own agenda and the phone gets in your way.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:15:40) 它提供干扰，它引导你应该看什么，你将会看什么。所以你不想要那样。你想让头脑安静下来。你想选择让什么样的东西进入你的头脑。
Lex Fridman (00:15:40) It provides distractions, it guides what you should be looking at, what you will be looking at. So you don’t want that. You want to quiet the mind. You want to choose what kind of stuff you let inside your mind.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:15:55) 是的，因为这样我可以为社会进步做出贡献。或者至少我喜欢这样想，这让我更快乐。
Pavel Durov (00:15:55) Yes, because this way I can contribute to the progress of society. Or at least I like to think this way and this makes me happier.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:16:03) 你多久能找到安静的时间，只是思考和专注于工作，没有任何干扰？你向我提到过你重视安静的早晨。
Lex Fridman (00:16:03) How often do you find quiet time to just think and focus deeply on work without any distractions? You mentioned to me that you value quiet mornings.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:16:13) 是的。所以我尝试做的事情是，我尽量分配尽可能多的时间用于睡眠。现在，即使我分配了比如11或12小时用于睡眠，我也不会睡11或12小时。所以我最终做的是，我最终躺在床上思考。有些人不喜欢这样。他们说，”嗯，你得吃安眠药，”但我从不吃药。我喜欢这些时刻。我得到了很多绝妙的想法，或者至少在当时它们对我来说似乎很绝妙，当我躺在床上时，无论是在深夜还是在清晨。那是我一天中最喜欢的时间。有时我醒来，去洗个澡，仍然不用手机。
Pavel Durov (00:16:13) Yes. So the thing I’m trying to do, I try to allocate as much time as possible for sleep. Now, even if I allocate say 11 or 12 hours for sleep, I won’t sleep for 11 or 12 hours. So what I end up doing is, I end up lying in bed thinking. And some people hate it. They say, “Well, you have to take a sleeping pill,” but I never take pills. I love these moments. I get so many brilliant ideas, or at least they seem brilliant to me at the moment, while I’m lying in bed, either late in the evening or early in the morning. That’s my favorite time of the day. Sometimes I wake up, I go take a shower, still without a phone.
(00:17:03) 美好的想法可以在你做晨练、进行早晨常规活动而不用手机时来到你身边。如果你早上第一件事就是打开手机，你最终会变成一个被告知在一天剩下的时间里该思考什么的生物。在某种程度上，如果你深夜一直在消费社交媒体的新闻，情况也是一样。但那样的话，你如何定义什么是重要的，以及你真正想成为什么样的人呢？现在，我不是说你必须完全远离所有信息来源，但要花些时间思考什么对你真正重要，以及你想在这个世界上改变什么。
(00:17:03) Beautiful ideas can come to you while you’re doing your morning exercise, your morning routine without a phone. If you open your phone first thing in the morning, what you end up being is a creature that is told what to think about for the rest of the day. Same is true in a way if you’ve been consuming news from social media late at night. But then how do you define what is important and what you really want to become in life? Now, I’m not saying you have to completely stay away from all sources of information, but take some time to think about what’s really important for you and what you want to change in this world.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:17:51) 所以你肯定试图在早上尽可能多地避免使用电子设备，只是为了有安静的思考时间，再加上疯狂数量的俯卧撑和深蹲？
Lex Fridman (00:17:51) So you definitely try to avoid digital devices for as many hours as possible in the morning, just to have the quiet thinking time, plus the crazy amounts of push-ups and squats?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:18:02) 我知道这有违直觉，因为我创立了世界上最大的社交网络之一，之后又创立了世界第二大通讯应用。按理说你应该真的保持连接，但你很早就得出的结论是，你连接得越多、越容易联系到，你的效率就越低。然后，如果你不断地被各种信息轰炸，其中大部分与你试图构建的事业的成功无关，你又如何能运营这个东西呢？整个世界可能着迷于世界上最富有的人和世界上最有权势的人之间的争吵、争执。但对于绝大多数关注这个传奇故事的人来说，这是无关紧要的。它不会改变他们的生活，而且无论如何，他们无法影响它，所以有点毫无意义。当然，有些人从事的活动要求他们了解正在发生的一切，但99%的人不是。
Pavel Durov (00:18:02) I know it’s counterintuitive because I founded one of the largest social networks in the world, after which I founded the second-largest messaging app in the world. And you’re supposed to be really connected, but the conclusion you reach very early is that the more connected and accessible you are, the less productive you are. And then how can you run this thing if you’re constantly bombarded by all kinds of information, most of which is irrelevant to the success of what you’re trying to build? The entire world can be fascinated by a fight, a quarrel between the world’s richest man and the world’s most powerful man. But for the vast majority of these people following this saga, it’s irrelevant. It won’t change their lives, and in any case, they can’t affect it, so it’s a bit pointless. Of course, there are people who are engaged in activities that require them to be up-to-date of everything that’s going on, but 99% of people aren’t.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:19:19) 是的，互联网、社交媒体以这样一种方式向我们呈现戏剧性事件，让我们认为这是世界上最大的事情，是最重要的事情，历史的潮流将因此而转向。但实际上，大多数事情不会改变历史的潮流。所以我想我们的挑战是弄清楚什么是永恒的东西？什么是今天正在发生、并且在10年、20年后仍然正确的事情？并由此决定你要做什么。这在社交媒体上非常困难，因为每个人都很愤怒。当天的新闻，无论争吵是什么，那就是每个人都认为世界会因此终结的事情，然后第二天又发生了另一件事。
Lex Fridman (00:19:19) Yeah, the internet, social media presents to us drama in such a way that we think it’s the biggest thing in the world, the most important thing in which the tides of history will turn. But in reality, most things will not turn the tides of history. And so I guess our challenge is to figure out what is the timeless thing? What is the thing that’s happening today that’s still going to be true in 10, 20 years? And from that, decide what you’re going to do. And that’s very difficult on social media because everybody’s outraged. The news of the day, whatever the quarrel is, that’s the thing that everyone thinks the world will end because of this thing, and then another thing happens the next day.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:20:04) 而且他们试图影响你的情绪。
Pavel Durov (00:20:04) And they’re trying to influence your emotions.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:20:07) 是的。
Lex Fridman (00:20:07) Yeah.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:20:08) 这就是你陷入麻烦的方式，因为你可能被迫做出不符合你最佳利益的结论。
Pavel Durov (00:20:08) And that’s how you get into trouble because you can be forced to make conclusions that are not in your best interest.
纪律
Discipline
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:20:17) 我见过你，再次强调，对你的情绪相当斯多葛。你曾经生气过吗？你曾经感到孤独吗？你曾经悲伤过吗？人类情感的过山车，当你做艰难决定时，你如何处理这些情绪？
Lex Fridman (00:20:17) I’ve seen you be, once again, quite stoic about your emotions. You ever get angry? You ever get lonely? You ever get sad? The roller coaster of human emotion, and what do you do with that when you make difficult decisions?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:20:31) 我和其他每个人一样都是人类。我确实会体验到情绪。其中一些并不令人愉快，但我相信，我们每个人都有责任应对这些情绪，并学会克服它们。自律尤其重要，因为没有它，你如何克服这种看似无尽的消极或绝望循环，这种循环最终导致一些人抑郁？我通常从不抑郁。我不记得在过去20年里至少有过抑郁。也许我青少年时期有过。但其中一个原因是，我开始做事。
Pavel Durov (00:20:31) I’m a human being like everybody else. I do get to experience emotions. Some of them are not very pleasant, but I believe that it’s the responsibility of every one of us to cope with these emotions and to learn to work through them. Self-discipline is particularly important because without it, how can you overcome this seemingly endless loop of negativity or despair that ultimately leads to depression for some people? I normally never have depression. I don’t remember having depression in the last 20 years, at least. Maybe when I was a teenager. But one of the reasons for that is I start doing things.
(00:21:25) 我识别问题，我能看到一个解决方案，然后我开始执行策略。如果你陷入担心某事的循环中，什么都不会改变。人们经常犯这个错误，想着，”哦，我应该休息一下，然后恢复精力。”事情不是这样的。你通过做某事来获得能量，所以你开始做某事，然后它发生了，你感到有动力，你感到受到启发。然后最终你做别的事，多一点，再多一点。然后几年后，谁知道呢？你最终可能取得伟大的成就。
(00:21:25) I identify the problem, I can see a solution, and I start executing the strategy. If you are stuck in this loop of being worried about something, nothing’s ever going to change. And people often make this mistake thinking, “Oh, I should just have some rest and then regain energy.” This is not how it works. You gain energy by doing something, so you start doing something, then it happens, you feel motivated, you feel inspired. And then ultimately you do something else, a little bit more, a little bit more. And then a few years, who know? You may end up achieving great things.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:22:12) 是的，这就是人们困惑的地方。如果你陷入抑郁循环，即使当你真的、真的、真的、真的什么都不想做的时候，也要去做点什么。努力取得进展，因为好的感觉会在那之后到来。关键是先做后感觉，而不是先感觉后做。
Lex Fridman (00:22:12) Yeah, that’s the thing that people are confused. If you’re stuck in a depressive cycle, even when you really, really, really, really don’t want to do anything, to do something. Try to make progress because the good feeling comes on the end of that. The whole point is to do first and then feel, not feel and then do.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:22:33) 完全正确。去健身房就是一个好例子。有很多天你不想开始锻炼，但你必须克服最初的不情愿，然后你会达到一个享受它的点，你会想，”哦，天哪，今天来健身房真是个好主意。”但这几乎适用于所有活动。你开始写一些代码，先写一小段代码，然后你受到启发。然后你会想出更多主意。你需要写一部小说或者只是写一段。这很明显，也不是秘密，但因为我们都受到各种信息的轰炸，这些信息对于让我们成功来说并不真正重要，我们常常忘记了重要的事情，而这就是其中之一。
Pavel Durov (00:22:33) Exactly. And going to the gym is a good example. There are many days when you don’t want to start working out, but you have to overcome this initial reluctance, and then you get to a point that you enjoy it and you think, “Oh my God, it was such a good idea to come to the gym today.” But it’s similar to pretty much every activity. You get to write some code, write a small piece of code first, and then you get inspired. Then you’ll come up with more ideas. You need to write a novel or just write the paragraph. This is pretty obvious and it’s not a secret, but because we are bombarded with all kinds of information, that is not really important for us in terms of becoming successful, we often forget the important things, and this is one of them.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:23:32) 我们每天都在锻炼。你已经高强度锻炼了很多年，所以我想很多人会想知道你完美的每日锻炼计划是什么？比如说每天、每周的？
Lex Fridman (00:23:32) We’ve been working out every single day. You have been working out for many years pretty intensively, so I think a lot of people would love to know what’s your perfect daily workout regimen? Let’s say on a daily, weekly basis?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:23:50) 我每天早上做300个俯卧撑和300个深蹲。除此之外，我通常每周去健身房五到六次，每天花一到两个小时。
Pavel Durov (00:23:50) I do 300 push-ups and 300 squats every morning. And in addition to that, I go to the gym normally five, six times a week, spending between one and two hours every day.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:24:04) 所以俯卧撑和深蹲仍然是你日常锻炼的重要组成部分？
Lex Fridman (00:24:04) So push-ups and squats are still a big part of your routine?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:24:07) 是的，这就是我开始一天的方式。我不确定它们在改变你的身体方面有多大作用，但它们绝对是练习自律的好方法，因为大多数日子里你早上并不想做这些俯卧撑。深蹲尤其无聊。它们没那么难，只是无聊，但你克服了它，然后开始做与工作相关的其他事情就容易多了。例如，当我可以的时候，我也洗冰水浴，因为这是另一项自律的练习。我认为你可以锻炼的主要肌肉是这块肌肉，自律的肌肉。不是你的二头肌或胸肌或其他任何部位。因为如果你能训练那块肌肉，其他一切都会随之而来。
Pavel Durov (00:24:07) Yes, this is how I start my day. I’m not sure they do a lot in terms of changing your body, but they’re definitely a good way to practice self-discipline because you don’t want to do these push-ups in the morning most of the days. Squats are particularly boring. They’re not that hard, they’re just boring, but you overcome it and then it’s much easier to start doing other things related to your work. For example, when I can, I also take an ice bath because it’s another exercise of self-discipline. I think the main muscle you can exercise is this muscle, the muscle of self-discipline. Not your biceps or your pecs or anything else. Because if you get to train that one, everything else just comes by itself.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:25:07) 其他一切都变得容易。我们应该提到，我和你一起去过Banya，我想公平地说，就你能承受的程度而言，你有点疯狂。我甚至还没看到最厉害的部分。你能谈谈你在Banya的疯狂冒险吗，你从中获得什么价值？包括热和冷。
Lex Fridman (00:25:07) Everything else becomes easy. We should mention, I went with you to Banya, and I think it’s fair to say you’re nuts in terms of how much you can handle. And I didn’t even see the worst of it. Can you just speak to your crazy escapades in the Banya, what value you get from it? So both the heat and the cold.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:25:31) 我不知道这是否疯狂。我认为到现在这个时候这已经很自然和正常了，但也许我只是习惯了。所以Banya是东欧人实践的一种极端的桑拿，但它的做法是最大化热量，他们还使用各种草药和树枝，这是一种更全面、更自然的体验。然后必要的部分是，你进行冷水浸泡，然后再回去。再次强调，这是那些可能在当下并不总是那么愉快的事情之一，特别是如果你去到极端的温度，你感觉并不好。
Pavel Durov (00:25:31) I don’t know if it’s crazy. I think it’s quite natural and normal by this time, but maybe I just got used to it. So Banya is this extreme kind of sauna practiced by Eastern Europeans, but it is done in a way that maximizes heat and they also use all kind of herbs and branches, and it’s a much more holistic and natural experience. Then the necessary part of it is you get the cold plunge and then you go back. And again, this is one of those things that maybe in the moment it’s not always that pleasant, particularly if you go to extreme temperatures, you don’t feel great.
(00:26:24) 我并不总是感觉良好，但这种感觉会过去。只有几分钟。冰水浴也是一样。你必须忍受一点痛苦，然后你会在之后几小时甚至几天内感觉棒极了。更重要的是，它能给你带来长期的健康益处。在某种程度上，你可以把它看作是反向的酒精。酒精会给你短暂的、转瞬即逝的快乐，持续一小时，几小时，但之后你将付出长期的负面后果作为代价。我宁愿选择Banya和冰水浴。
(00:26:24) I don’t always feel great, but this feeling is passing. It’s only a few minutes. Same with the ice bath. You have to suffer a bit and then you get to feel great for hours and days after. What’s more, it gives you this long-term health benefits. In a way you can look at it as alcohol in reverse. Alcohol will give you this short, fleeting pleasure for an hour, for a couple of hours, but then you will be paying for it with long-term negative consequences. I’d rather do Banya and ice bath.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:27:09) 我们在法国几次游过一个大湖的长度。你能谈谈你为什么重视这些多小时的游泳吗？
Lex Fridman (00:27:09) We swam the length of a large lake in France a couple times. Can you talk through why you value these multi-hour swims?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:27:17) 是的。我喜欢游泳几个小时。我游得最长的一次是在芬兰，五个半小时。水很冷。我在过程中迷路了，几乎找不到回去的路。但我这样做的原因，是的，之后你感觉棒极了。你有点发抖，之后感觉棒极了。你横渡了一个巨大的湖，我横渡过很多湖，日内瓦湖，苏黎世湖。每次你都能感受到这种成就感，这让你快乐，让你感到强大，然后你更准备好去应对其他挑战。当然，当你知道你将开始一段持续几个小时的旅程时，你是不情愿去做的。但你游了10分钟，然后20分钟，然后30分钟，它教会你这种令人难以置信的耐心，我认为如果你想在生活中取得任何成就，这种耐心是必要的。
Pavel Durov (00:27:17) Yeah. I love swimming for hours. The longest I swam was five and a half hours in Finland. It was quite cold. I got lost in the process, barely could find my way back. But the reason I do it, yes, you feel great after. You’re shaking a little bit, you feel great after. You cross a huge lake, and I cross many lakes, Geneva Lake, Zurich Lake. And every time you feel this achievement, which makes you happy, makes you feel strong, and then you’re more ready to do other challenges. And of course, when you know you’re going to start a journey that will last a few hours, you are reluctant to do it. But you swim for 10 minutes and then for 20 minutes and then for 30 minutes, and it teaches you this incredible patience that I think is necessary if you want to achieve anything in life.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:28:23) 而且它很冥想，湖 vs 海洋。
Lex Fridman (00:28:23) And it’s pretty meditative, lake versus ocean.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:28:27) 是的。而且你不必游得太快。你可以慢下来，享受当下。
Pavel Durov (00:28:27) Yes. And you don’t have to go too fast. You can be slow and enjoy the moment.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:28:33) 直到你迷路了，游了五个半小时。你会恐慌吗，如果你要能找到岸，找到出路？
Lex Fridman (00:28:33) Until you get lost and it’s five and a half hours. Would you panic, if you’re going to be able to find the shore, find your way out?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:28:39) 不会真的，我是一个相当抗压的人。那一刻我没有恐慌。而且我有过更糟糕的游泳经历，时间更短，但涉及事故，你知道其中一些。所以那远不是最糟的。但关于游泳和体育活动的一个重要之处在于，它使你的头脑清晰，你的思维过程变得更有效率。因为在一天结束时，我们大脑的效率受限于我们的心脏能通过血液向大脑输送多少糖和氧气。你如何让这个过程更快？或者你如何让你的肺部更有效率？你如何让你的心脏在做这件事上更有效率？
Pavel Durov (00:28:39) Not really, I’m a reasonably stress-resilient person. I didn’t panic at that moment. And there were worse swims I had that were shorter, but involved accidents and you know about some of them. So that wasn’t the worst by far. But an important thing about swimming and physical activity in general is that it makes your mind clear and your thinking process is becoming more efficient. Because at the end of the day, the efficiency of our brain is limited by how much sugar and oxygen our heart can push through blood to our brain though. How can you make this go faster or how do you make your lungs more efficient? How do you make your heart more efficient in doing that?
(00:29:33) 体育活动是我所知道的唯一方法。所以这不仅仅是保持健康或试图看起来好看，它也是关于提高效率。它也是关于抗压能力。所有这些品质都是必要的，如果你想运营一家大公司，如果你想创办一家公司。我惊讶的是，当我十多年前开始这样做时，更多的CEO没有参与体育运动。这种情况在过去几年发生了变化，这很好。因为回溯到20年前，有一种刻板印象，如果你很强壮，你一定不太聪明，反之亦然。这完全是荒谬的。很多时候这两者是相辅相成的。
(00:29:33) Physical activity is the only way I know of. So it’s not just staying healthy or trying to look good, it’s also being productive. It’s also being stress resilient. All of these qualities are necessary if you want to run a large company, if you want to start a company. I’m surprised when I started doing this more than 10 years ago, that more CEOs didn’t engage in sports. The situation changed in the last several years, which is great. Because back in the day, if you take 20 years ago, there was this stereotype that if you are strong, you must be not very smart and vice versa. Which is a complete lunacy. Very often these two things go together.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:30:34) 所以对你来说，锻炼不仅仅是为了保持健康，它实际上对你作为技术领导者、工程师、技术专家所做的工作很有价值。
Lex Fridman (00:30:34) So for you working out is not just about staying healthy, it’s actually valuable for the work that you do as a tech leader, as an engineer, as a technologist.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:30:43) 哦，是的。当我不能锻炼时，我能立刻感觉到压力正在向我袭来。所以即使在受限制的情况下，我不能去健身房，我也会继续做俯卧撑。我只是继续做深蹲。
Pavel Durov (00:30:43) Oh yes. When I can’t train, I can instantly feel that stress is creeping on me. So even in situations when I’m constrained, I can’t go to the gym, I would just keep doing push-ups. I just keep doing squats.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:31:06) 是的，我的意思是，自重锻炼的好处就在于此。你可以在任何地方做。你可以在开会前突然做50个、100个俯卧撑。
Lex Fridman (00:31:06) Yeah, I mean that’s the cool thing about body weight exercise. You could just do it anywhere. You could just pop off 50, 100 push-ups before a meeting.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:31:16) 如果一天没有体育活动，你不会觉得不对劲吗？
Pavel Durov (00:31:16) Don’t you feel weird when you have a day without physical activity?
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:31:21) 是的。如果我一天不做俯卧撑，至少是最低限度的，那这一天就很糟糕。
Lex Fridman (00:31:21) Yeah. If I go a day without doing push-ups, at the very minimum, it’s a shitty day.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:31:27) 如果你能做引体向上，那就更好了。
Pavel Durov (00:31:27) And if you can do pull-ups, it’s even better.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:31:30) 是的。我还得问问你的饮食。不摄入加工糖，不吃快餐，不喝苏打水。间歇性禁食，有时一天只吃一顿，有时一天吃几顿。那么跟我讲讲你关于不吃糖、不喝苏打水、只吃健康食物的哲学。
Lex Fridman (00:31:30) Yeah. I got to ask you about your diet too. No processed sugar, no fast food, no soda. Intermittent fasting, sometimes once a day only, sometimes a couple times a day. So take me through your philosophy on the no sugar, no soda, just clean food.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:31:47) 嗯，糖很简单，因为它容易上瘾。你消耗的糖越多，你就越想要它，你就越饿。所以如果你想保持高效和健康，为什么要消耗加工糖呢？你最终只会一直吃零食。间歇性禁食。所以每天只在6小时内进食，18小时不进食，这也会给你的日子和饮食习惯带来结构。这样你就不再渴望糖了，因为你知道如果你吃了糖，然后又不能吃零食，你只是在惩罚自己。我读过几本关于长寿的书。我想大家都同意的一点是，糖是有害的。
Pavel Durov (00:31:47) Well, sugar is pretty easy because it’s addictive. The more you consume sugar, the more you want it, the hungrier you get. So if you want to stay efficient and healthy, why consume processed sugar? You’ll just end up snacking all the time. Intermittent fasting. So eating only within six hours and not eating for 18 hours every day also brings structure into your day and into your eating habits. So you don’t crave sugar anymore because you know if you eat sugar and then you’re unable to snack, you’re just punishing yourself. I read a few books on longevity. I think something everybody agrees on is that sugar is harmful.
(00:32:48) 不，我对糖并不极端。你可以吃浆果、水果，如果你觉得你的身体需要它，但认为有必要吃甜食是不对的。对儿童不是，对成人也不是。红肉，我大约20年前就停止吃了，因为每次吃完我都觉得身体沉重。所以我猜这是因人而异的。是我的新陈代谢。我的消化系统不同意这种食物。所以我通常吃各种海鲜和蔬菜。这是我卡路里的基本来源。
(00:32:48) No, I’m not militant about sugar. You can eat berries, fruit, if you feel your body needs it, but it’s not true to think it’s necessary to consume sweet things. Not for children, not for adults. Red meat, I stopped eating it about 20 years ago because I just felt heavy every time I had it. So I guess it’s individual. It’s my metabolism. My digestive system isn’t agreeing with this kind of food. So I normally eat seafood of all kinds and vegetables. This is the basic source of calories for me.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:33:37) 是的，就像所有事情一样，你说过，”短期的快乐不值得你付出未来。”所以很多事情我们都知道，酒精对身体有害。烟草、药片、加工食品、糖，但社会把这些强加给你，使得避免它们非常困难。所以我想这一切都归结为自律。
Lex Fridman (00:33:37) Yeah, and like all things, you said, “Short-term pleasure isn’t worth your future.” So a lot of things we all know, that alcohol is destructive to the body. Tobacco, pills, processed food, sugar, but society puts that on you, makes it very difficult to avoid. So I guess it all boils down to just discipline.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:33:56) 是的，并且试图识别你正在经历的问题的真正原因。如果你正在经历头痛，一种解决方案是吃一片药，然后头痛就消失了。这片药实际上在大多数情况下会做什么，它会消除后果，你的疼痛感。它是一种止痛药。它不会消除根本原因。所以你必须问自己，”是什么导致了这种头痛？我需要喝点水吗？这里的空气质量不好吗？我需要开始多睡点觉吗？我周围的人有什么问题吗？他们在给我压力。”一定有什么原因导致你经历头痛。但如果你吃药，你并没有消除这个原因，你实际上是在让它变得更糟，因为这个有害因素仍然存在。这就像你-
Pavel Durov (00:33:56) Yes, and trying to identify the real cause of an issue you’re experiencing. If you’re experiencing a headache, one solution would be to take a pill and then the headache disappears. What this pill would actually do, in most cases, it would mute the consequence, your feeling of pain. It’s a painkiller. It will not eliminate the root cause. So you have to ask yourself, ” What is it that’s causing this headache? Do I need to drink some water? Is the air quality here bad? Do I need to start getting more sleep? Is there something wrong with people around me? They’re stressing me out.” There must be some reason why you’re experiencing a headache. But if you take a pill, you’re not removing this reason, you’re actually making it worse because this harmful factor is still there. It’s like you’re-
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:35:00) 有害因素仍然存在。这就像你在驾驶一架直升机，有一些红色信号，红灯开始闪烁，并开始产生糟糕的、令人不快的噪音。你会怎么做？你会试着找出原因并消除它。也许你旁边有座山，你必须避开它，或者你拿把锤子砸碎信号灯。我认为答案很明显。那么，为什么我们还在不断地这样做呢？哦，因为其他每个人都这样做。因为有一个完整的行业试图说服你这样做是对的。所以，分析自己并试图追根究底是极其重要的。
Pavel Durov (00:35:00) Full factor is still there. It’s like you’re piloting a helicopter and there is some red signals and red lamp starts to blink and it starts producing bad, unpleasant noise. What would you do? You would try to figure out the cause and eliminate it. Maybe there is some mountain next to you and you have to avoid it, or you take a hammer and smash the signal. I think the answer is quite obvious. So, why are we constantly doing this regardless? Oh, because everybody else is doing it. Because there’s a whole industry trying to persuade you that this is the right thing to do. So, it’s incredibly important to analyze yourself and try to get to the bottom of things.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:35:48) 所以你通常尽量避免所有药片，所有医药产品？
Lex Fridman (00:35:48) So you generally try to avoid all pills, all pharmaceutical products?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:35:53) 是的。自从我成年后，我就一直远离所有那些东西。当你是个青少年时，你妈妈通常会说，”我们需要吃这片药，否则世界就崩溃了。”一旦我长大成人，我说，”不，我认为药片生产商的激励方式不对。他们并不是真的对消除问题的根源感兴趣。”他们宁愿让我依赖他们生产的药片，这样我就可以永远购买它们。不，我并不是说你永远不应该吃药。显然有些疾病你只能用抗生素来对抗，例如。所以，我不是建议我们回到中世纪，但我想说的是我们过度使用药片。
Pavel Durov (00:35:53) Yes. I’ve been staying away from all of that since I became an adult. When you’re a teenager, your mom would typically say, “We need to take this pill, otherwise the world collapses.” Once I became a grown-up, I said, “No, I don’t think that the producers of pill are incentivized in the right way. They’re not really interested in eliminating the root of the problem.” They would rather have me dependent on the pills they’re producing so that I could buy them forever. No, I’m not saying that you should never take pills. There are obviously some diseases that you can only fight with antibiotics, for example. So, I’m not suggesting we go back to the Middle Ages, but what I’m saying is we overuse pills.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:36:59) 是的，总是好的去研究并深入理解世界运作所基于的激励机制，这样你就不会被在这些激励下运作的力量卷走。大型制药公司当然是其中之一。制药公司有巨大的动力让问题持续下去，而不是解决问题。这是明智的。
Lex Fridman (00:36:59) Yeah, it’s always good to study and deeply understand the incentives under which the world operates so that you don’t get swept up into the forces that operate under these incentives. Big Pharma is certainly one of them. Pharmaceutical companies have a huge incentive to keep the problem going versus solving the problem. It’s wise.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:37:19) 这是我每天都在实践的事情。我读到一些新闻，然后问自己，”谁从阅读这些信息中受益？”然后你最终可能得出这样的结论：也许我们新闻中读到的95%的东西被撰写和出版，是因为有人想让你购买某种产品，支持某种政治事业，打某场战争，捐赠一些钱。让我们做一些有利于他人的事情。支持你真正信仰的事业并不是问题，只要这是你 intentional 的选择，并且你不是被操纵去为别人打仗。
Pavel Durov (00:37:19) This is something I practice every day. I read some piece of news and I ask myself, “Who benefits from me reading this?” Then you can end up coming to this conclusion that maybe 95% of things we read in the news have been written and published because somebody wanted you to buy some product, support some political cause, fight some war, donate some money. Let’s do something that would benefit other people. This is not a problem to support causes that you truly believe in as long as it was your intentional choice and you’re not being manipulated into fighting other people’s wars.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:38:14) 这又把我们带回到我们最初谈论的事情，那就是自由。实现思想自由的方法之一是让你的思想远离那些操纵你的影响和力量。意识到你消费的内容，尤其是在互联网上，其中很大一部分是为了操纵你的思想而设计的，这一点非常重要。你必须断开连接。要非常主动地理解偏见是什么，激励是什么。这样你才能清晰、独立、客观地思考。
Lex Fridman (00:38:14) And that takes us back to the original thing we started talking about, which is freedom. One of the ways to achieve freedom of thought is to remove your mind from the influences, the forces that manipulate you. That’s really important to realize the content you consume, especially on the internet, when a large percentage of it is designed to manipulate your mind. You have to disconnect yourself. Be very proactive understanding what the biases, what the incentives are. So, you can think clearly, independently, and objectively.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:38:51) 再次强调，这与戒绝酒精有关，因为如果你的头脑模糊不清，你怎么能分析自己呢？你将永远依赖他人的意见。你总是追随主流。然后无论当局或掌权者告诉你什么，你都会相信，因为你没有自己的工具可以依靠来得出自己的结论。
Pavel Durov (00:38:51) Again, it ties back with restraint from alcohol because if your mind is clouded, how can you analyze yourself? You’ll always be dependent on opinions of others. You always follow the mainstream. And then whatever the authorities or whoever in charge will tell you, you believe it because you don’t have a tool of your own to rely on to come to your own conclusions.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:39:27) 我必须问你，这是出现的一个问题。你不看色情内容。我不认为我以前听你谈过这个。不看色情内容背后的哲学是什么？很多人谈论色情内容总体上对年轻男性有非常负面的影响，影响他们对世界的看法，影响他们性行为的发展以及他们如何建立关系等等。那么，你不消费色情内容的哲学是什么？
Lex Fridman (00:39:27) I have to ask you, this is something that came up. You don’t watch porn. I don’t think I’ve heard you talk about this before. What’s the philosophy behind not watching porn? There’s a lot of people that talk about porn in general having a very negative effect on young men on their view of the world, on their development of their sexuality and how they get into relationships and all that stuff. So, what’s your philosophy in not consuming porn?
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:39:55) 我不看色情内容，因为我觉得它是一种替代品，是真实事物的代用品，在我的生活中没有必要。如果有任何影响，它只是迫使你用一些能量、一些灵感去交换一个短暂的快乐时刻。这没有意义。无论如何，正如我所说，它不是真实的东西。所以，只要你能接触到真实的东西，你就不需要看色情内容。但如果你无法接触到真实的东西，你也不应该看色情内容，因为这意味着你生活中存在某种缺陷，某个你必须克服的问题。
Pavel Durov (00:39:55) I don’t watch porn because I just feel it’s a surrogate, a substitute for a real thing that is not necessary in my life. If anything, it just forces you to exchange some energy, some inspiration to a fleeting moment of pleasure. It doesn’t make sense. In any case, as I said, it’s not the real thing. So, as long as you can access the real thing, you don’t need to watch porn. But then if you can’t access the real thing, you shouldn’t watch porn as well because it means there’s some deficiency in your life, some problem that you have to overcome.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:40:45) 是的，分析根本原因。再次强调，这回到了投资于长期繁荣 versus 短期快乐的主题。你对待生活的方式有一个主题。
Lex Fridman (00:40:45) Yeah, analyze the underlying cause. Again, this goes back to the theme of investing in a long-term flourishing versus short-term pleasure. There’s a theme to the way you approach life.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:41:02) 我尽量具有战略性。我尽量基于我不会在一小时内死去并且我会再活一段时间的假设来行动，尽管我们都会死。那么，我为什么要用中期和长期来交换短期呢？这没有任何意义。
Pavel Durov (00:41:02) I try to be strategic. I try to act under assumption that I’m not going to die in one hour from now and I’m going to stick around for a bit despite the fact that we are all mortal. So, why would I exchange the mid and long term for the short term? It doesn’t make any sense.
莱克斯·弗里德曼 (00:41:23) 快速暂停，洗手间休息。
Lex Fridman (00:41:23) Quick pause, bathroom break.
帕维尔·杜罗夫 (00:41:24) 好的，我们休息一下。
Pavel Durov (00:41:24) Yeah, let’s take a break.